If You Hate LEDs, What's the Main Reason?

(Topic ID: 18523)

If You Hate LEDs, What's the Main Reason?


By Crashdance22

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 89 posts
  • 61 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by o-din
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Why do you not care for LEDs?”

    • Ball strobing 16 votes
      24%
    • Instant on/off 11 votes
      17%
    • Brightness/harsh color 32 votes
      48%
    • Narrow light spread 3 votes
      5%
    • Price 4 votes
      6%

    (66 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 89 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 6 years ago

    Reading the recent topic on how LEDs seem to ruin the artwork for some got me thinking. People who don't prefer LEDs have different reasons for it. Perhaps we can get an idea of what the main reason is so manufacturers can adapt and interest more potential customers.

    #2 6 years ago

    I used to hate them , but now I like the CT Super in the inserts . I still don't like them in the GI as I can't stand the ghosting. I talked with CT in Seattle and they assured me that they have the problem fixed with their new non flicker LEDs . I will have to try some . I don't care too much for the color zones that people do, I could always change my mind on that too.

    The new Stern looks incredible with all LEDs.

    Jim

    #3 6 years ago

    Hey,

    First off, I won't say I hate LEDs, per se. However, I wouldn't say it's something I'd put in my machines. I have a Pin*Bot that had some LEDs in it when I got it, I never thought it looked bad, but when I swap the playfield, I'll probably go back to the standard ones just for the sake of keeping things on par with my other machines. So, with that out of the way:

    Go look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denn%C5%8D_Senshi_Porygon

    I have played a couple of games with LEDs in darker locations (bar setting), and this was all I could think of when it happened. No, I didn't have a seizure or anything to that effect, but yes, the flashing did bother me. I've never had something like that happen before or since. So, the first part would be the instantaneous on/off, which actually bothers me in a physical sense.

    Keeping with the list, price would factor into it as well; for the cost of converting my TSPP, Shadow, and WhiteWater to LEDs, I could probably buy a half-decent solid-state machine. It's kind of like when a kid buzzes by in his Honda CRX with a resonator muffler. I think to myself, "Why would you pay that kind of money to have your car sounds that bad?" And when I see some machines, I just think, "Too much, man. Too much." Have a spot on the playfield that's generally dark and you can put an LED in there, brighten it up, and improve gameplay? Awesome. Have a spot in your house that looks like you're running a grow-op, but it's actually your Spirit of '76? Not so awesome. There's something to be said for subtlety.

    Luke

    #4 6 years ago

    I can't say I "hate" LED's! In fact, if done right, machines tend to look even better with them! But, I am the one vote for "instant on/off". It isn't too noticeable, but music doesn't match the lights like it use to with previous lights.

    -Aaron

    #5 6 years ago
    Quoted from McCune:

    The new Stern looks incredible with all LEDs.

    The new Sterns were designed to have LEDS and look great.

    10
    #6 6 years ago

    When I was a kid, we could barely tell what inserts were lit, and that's the way we liked it, dang nabbit! We also liked when bulbs got so hot that inserts would lift and connectors would burn up. It's the way God intended. Look in the bible, there's no mention of LEDs... you heathens.

    #7 6 years ago

    Main reason: I bought a bunch when about a year ago to replace a bunch of lights on my Whirlwind. I spent an entire afternoon changing them out underneath the playfield for the inserts. Turned on the game and what do ya know...........when one feature lights up it lights up other feature lights. Nobody said anything to me about ghosting.........nor did I understand. I guess just a part of the learning process of this but extremely dissapointed that I needed to spend a bunch more money for non ghosting leds.

    #8 6 years ago

    I agree that the new Sterns demonstrate just how good LEDs can look. AC/DC is like being at a fireworks display! Reports from the NW show seem to say that JJP got it right too, although until the GI is installed we won't get the full effect.

    #9 6 years ago

    love led's, except for the strobing and ghosting.

    #10 6 years ago

    Love LEDs, don't have any issues with them in my machines. Now when play games on location they seem to dark. Hell, how can LEDs ruin the artwork you can barely see with incandescent bulbs?

    #11 6 years ago

    They can be too bright. It seems to really depend in the game and personal tastes. I played an AFM at the Texas showc that was so bright, it hurt my eyes and made it hard to see the ball. I like them in my ACDC. It really looks nice. When I walk a few feet over and turn on the really nice MM, it looks dim. However, if you just walk I'm and turn on the MM, it looks really nice with incandescent bulbs. When it goes all LED, I'll probably use frosted or warm ones in certain games. My buddy has a Pinbot with LEDs and it seems quite appropriate with the theme, for example.

    #12 6 years ago

    Okay, I'll ask the noob question. What exactly does stoning and ghosting refer to? There are some LEDs in a six million dollar man I play. They sort of flicker a bit. Is that strobing? And I can sort of infer from the post above that ghosting refers to lighting things other than its own. An I on track?

    #13 6 years ago

    Yep - ghosting is the LED glowing faintly on when it should be off. Stobing is a lit LED flickering due to 60hz AC in the GI circuit or pulsing in the inserts. The more expensive LEDs have electronics built in to suppress both of these but some people are really sensitive to strobing and still have problems.

    #14 6 years ago

    survey says - when many are in hurts my eyes

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from McCune:

    I used to hate them , but now I like the CT Super in the inserts . I still don't like them in the GI as I can't stand the ghosting.

    Ghosting is normally something noticed in the inserts, not the GI.

    Did you mean strobing?

    12
    #16 6 years ago

    Before anyone climbs me like a tree, please remember that this is my *opinion*, and since it's my opinion, it is as valid as yours, just as your opinion is right to you, mine is right to me, and that's the way it's gonna be.

    I don't like the way they look. They make things too bright, and distort the colors of the machines. Things glow in different intensity than the designers intended. The insert gets so dang bright many times that you can't make out the lettering on them.

    They hurt my eyes.

    The ghosting and strobing is just another minus in my book

    I like the way the games look with 44s and 555s. The balance is perfect. It's not too dim, it's not too bright, it's perfect. It's a masterpiece.

    *In my opinion*, Putting LEDs in a pin that was designed to have regular bulbs in it is like putting a moustache on Mona Lisa; it's like putting a fart pipe and underbody neons on a honda civic.. it's just too much. It takes something that looks decent, and makes it look tasteless.

    At least they are reversible.

    I have tried sprinkling a few here and there, just to see how it looks. I've tried some in pop bumpers, and tend to put them in pops because I've had a few games (think: t2) melt the caps with regular bulbs in them, or had a game where you can't change the bumper lamps easily (cftbl) - but they aren't for me.

    And the argument that the manufacturers make LEDs that look like conventional bulbs - why pay more then? In the use pins get in my home, I don't strain connectors, I don't melt inserts, I don't burn through translites or backglasses - the expense is unneccesary!

    #17 6 years ago

    John, your straight up old school!!!! I love the look of led's, but on;t like all the bling, like chrome coin doors and under cabinet lighting etc. I suppose if I were rich that might change my mind, but for now I would prefer to spend the bling money on another pin.

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Ghosting is normally something noticed in the inserts, not the GI.

    That is not what I understand but probably wrong , Melissa form Coin taker told me that ghosting and strobing are the same thing ?

    It makes since to me that the ball looks like it has a ghost chasing it ! I don't understand ghosting in a insert and inserts are DC voltage where as GI is AC and you get the 60 Hz cycle making the strobing/ghosting effect .

    Jim

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from scooter:

    The new Sterns were designed to have LEDS and look great.

    +1
    With a little time and effort, you can make games look AWESOME with led's......... The new non-ghosting bulbs work great in inserts.
    On the other hand, I have seen games with led's look awefull.
    Doug

    #20 6 years ago
    Quoted from johnwartjr:

    *In my opinion*, Putting LEDs in a pin that was designed to have regular bulbs in it is like putting a moustache on Mona Lisa; it's like putting a fart pipe and underbody neons on a honda civic.. it's just too much. It takes something that looks decent, and makes it look tasteless.

    Or like taking a regular telephone and making it cordless or wireless, or replacing the typewritters with printers, or that guy that made the TV remote...you kids get off my lawn!!!!!!

    When I was a lad I use to walk up hill in 10 feet of snow to school each day!!

    You kids and your fancy lights

    #21 6 years ago

    To the OP Question for me it has been

    1) Too bright in inserts - they become distracting and give me a headache (esp. games like monster bash with next shot insert blinking)

    2) Flicker/Ghosting/Strobing - whichever makes the insert lit when its not supposed to be (My T2 with LED's has 2x 4x and all the inlanes lit when you start the game.. huh?)

    3) Brightness tends to wash out plastics instead of enhance.

    4) LED's (the many i have tried) dont "wash" the playfield with light, tend to be too focused including the frosted ones i have used.

    If they truly created a 1 LED to replace incandescent bulbs i would be all over it. For now, i just use them for spot areas to enhance the lighting.

    #22 6 years ago

    Well you guys see it is a matter of preference leds can be dimmer depending which ones used Vs size and darkness of inserts also GI say on a bally can have a second bridge rectifer of the power supply to dim the lighting down a bit
    Flickering also ahs solutions the resistor jumping method can also eliminate flickering and ghosting along with being to responsive with the flashing effect they do sell standard led which are dimmer nad if you put the bulb in a drill and run a file around em they can be frosted as well
    Its just a matter of getting the right glow and intensity you are looking for but no 1 led will do the whole machine
    As much as I love leds i have seen some terrible led jobs on machines that do look like crap its just a matter of playing with em and being tasteful with em

    #23 6 years ago

    I didn't vote because I don't always hate LEDs, but I'll say this about it...

    I hate not-tasteful LEDs.

    Long story short, a couple years ago I had an accident that really harmed the vision in my left eye and made is to that I have a lot of light sensitivity in that eye, particularly when it is dark and moves to light. Going to places that are constantly flashing lights (concerts, musicals, etc) give me almost instant headaches because of it, even though 90% of the time I am not really bothered by it.

    When people put in the SUPER BRIGHT LEDs all over their machines, I absolutely cannot stand them. It gives me an instant headache, and I can't watch the machine. Having said that, I really do like LEDs in a lot of applications in machines. My VND, DM and Batman Forever are all 100% LEDed, most of my backboxes get LEDs to cut down a little on the heat, and I try to replace all of my flashers with LED ones just in case they get locked on, I don't want them melting an insert.

    How it is done I'm very particular on. I'm still not happy with my JP because the white flashers at the bottom absolutely blind me, so I've tried other colors, and nothing quite works right. It has blue in it right now, which is way toned down but looks really funny.

    I can't explain exactly where the line is, other than my left eye tells me exactly where it is. I also do like machines to look decently stock, so when people change out everything to look totally different, I generally don't like that as much... but then again, I have done that in a couple places on the machines that I changed over, so that isn't a hard and fast rule.

    Maybe my rule on what I like is like the supreme court definition's of pornography - I'll know it when I see it.

    #24 6 years ago

    Definitely an issue with illumination. Some people put LED's EVERYWHERE on a non-recent Stern title and it just turns an otherwise easy to see and bright machine into a dark alleyway. Inserts are where these bulbs really shine IMO.

    Ghosting is annoying, but I think it's more a byproduct of my being cheap. I tried putting some Ablaze 1's in my Gottlieb System 3 thinking I could live with it...but wow was I wrong. Annoying as hell. Especially during light displays where everything is supposed to go dark for a GI light show.

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    I'm still not happy with my JP because the white flashers at the bottom absolutely blind me ...

    This was the exact same case with my Tommy when I first got it. Whoever owned the game before me had installed LED flashers in the outlanes. It was positively blinding, and I'm not particularly sensitive to this sort of thing. I tried a few different LED options, but ultimately I was happiest with good old fashioned amber colored incandescents. All of my games get the full LED treatment, but I still use normal incanscent flashers in many instances. Even in the backbox, I find LED flashers can sometimes be way too bright.

    #26 6 years ago

    The flickering and ghosting can be taken care of here are some pics of the mods in my Elektra absolutly no flickering or ghosting also i built custom led boards for rollover inserts
    Sometimes you cant just buy off the shelf retrofitting etc all takes time and additional work

    Elektra_new_sockets.jpg led_socket_old.jpg rollover_led.jpg

    #27 6 years ago

    The color changing ones are neat in selected spots. I have the slow change (red green blue) in a custom shooter rod for my TZ. I also put them behind the words "twilight zone" on the translight. It's a soft look and compliments the overall theme for me.
    In my STTNG, I have the same slow change behind the Borg's face on the translight.

    #28 6 years ago

    The task of finding the right type to go in each location is the killer for me. I've been wanting to put LED's in select locations on my Space Station for awhile but when I go to order them I'm faced with the hard decision of what will work where and how bright of a bulb to use.

    #29 6 years ago

    I use the color changing ones to illuminate R2D2 on my DE SW. Really looks great illuminating his white body.

    #30 6 years ago
    Quoted from Hellfire:

    The flickering and ghosting can be taken care of here are some pics of the mods in my Elektra absolutly no flickering or ghosting also i built custom led boards for rollover inserts
    Sometimes you cant just buy off the shelf retrofitting etc all takes time and additional work

    The resistors would eliminate ghosting and slightly dim the LEDs but if it completely eliminated strobing for you I can't explain that... anyone care to do more testing?

    #31 6 years ago

    On the Elektra, I'm seeing a 10 ohm 1/2 watt resistor going from the 6 volt power buss directly to the side of the lamp socket that connects to the lamp driver board, for each and every lamp socket that has an LED? Am i correct on this? Do you need to do it for all LED'ed lamp sockets? Because I've found that lamp drivers that use the larger SCR can utilize one LED and one 555/47 without needing a resistor on either lamp socket...

    #32 6 years ago

    I dont mind leds i mind noobs who have no artistic eye for lighting and make a game look like trash. IE: the WH20 i recently got.

    #33 6 years ago

    No its not 10ohm lol that would prolly cook the scr immeadiatly lol I have experimented the best maximum ohm rating you want is 1.5k ohms 1/4W the higher the resistance the better giving less bleeding voltage. 1.5k @ 6.5v is hardly bleeding a thing just simulating a bulb slightly with a preload this tricks the scr into thinking there is more load than a led and keeps it constant should only use about 28-30% of an incandecent Vs. 25% without resistor
    But this is only good for bally/stern 77-85 it wont work on williams and unsure about gottelieb
    the same technique will work on williams but not 1.5k it will be lower resistence should be somewhere between 470-1kish area on bally machines you dont need resistor all the sockets just the ones with flickering leds

    #34 6 years ago

    I don't mind LED's, but the price for a LED set isn't worth it if you're trying to sell it.

    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from kwiKimart:

    I don't mind LED's, but the price for a LED set isn't worth it if you're trying to sell it.

    You're right, unless you get very lucky with finding just the right buyer. I figure it is money spent solely to enhance my own enjoyment.

    #36 6 years ago

    I'm glad they help people enjoy their games, don't get me wrong - they just aren't for me

    #37 6 years ago

    Remember when they first replaced EM chimes with solid-state sound? The way system 1 Gottliebs sound is the way LEDs look to me (no offense to those who like the system 1 sounds). LED technology just isn't there yet, for all the reasons listed in the survey.

    And as John Wart points out, they fix what isn't broken. I only have to replace 3-5 bulbs a year in most of my games, and I've never had a PCB-level failure from the strain of driving all those incandescent bulbs. So what GI problem are we trying to solve with LEDs?

    #38 6 years ago
    Quoted from McCune:

    That is not what I understand but probably wrong , Melissa form Coin taker told me that ghosting and strobing are the same thing ?
    It makes since to me that the ball looks like it has a ghost chasing it ! I don't understand ghosting in a insert and inserts are DC voltage where as GI is AC and you get the 60 Hz cycle making the strobing/ghosting effect .
    Jim

    No! Strobing and Ghosting are not the same thing. Of course the problem is that people *mean* very different things when they use these terms, and many people do use them interchangeably, including, apparently, Melissa at CT.

    Ghosting: when a light is supposed to be completely off, but the LED continues to have a flicker of light in it. This can be VERY distracting. See LOTR for a great example of what terrible ghosting can look like by putting some regular LEDs in the fellowship inserts. "Hey, why is that inserts faintly on"?

    Since ghosting is a LED that is somewhat on when its supposed to be off, it really isn't an issue in GI since the GI is always on anyway.

    Strobing (strobe effect): just like it sounds, it gives the ball that strobe effect like you are playing it under one of those disco lights that makes everything look like it is in slow motion. The LED is not constantly "on" like an incandescent bulb, and it "flickers". This can be bad in both GI and Inserts. Even without the effect on the ball, just looking at bright LEDs with flicker can be very irritating to those who are susceptible to this effect.

    #39 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    No! Strobing and Ghosting are not the same thing. Of course the problem is that people *mean* very different things when they use these terms, and many people do use them interchangeably, including, apparently, Melissa at CT.

    Ghosting: when a light is supposed to be completely off, but the LED continues to have a flicker of light in it. This can be VERY distracting. See LOTR for a great example of what terrible ghosting can look like by putting some regular LEDs in the fellowship inserts. "Hey, why is that inserts faintly on"?

    Since ghosting is a LED that is somewhat on when its supposed to be off, it really isn't an issue in GI since the GI is always on anyway.

    Strobing (strobe effect): just like it sounds, it gives the ball that strobe effect like you are playing it under one of those disco lights that makes everything look like it is in slow motion. The LED is not constantly "on" like an incandescent bulb, and it "flickers". This can be bad in both GI and Inserts. Even without the effect on the ball, just looking at bright LEDs with flicker can be very irritating to those who are susceptible to this effect.

    Thanks Rob. That was helpful !

    Jim

    -1
    #40 6 years ago

    I only got old em's.. I like LED for backglass. (especially warm white) if only to remove any heat to keep the glass as nice as possible as long as possible.. I also use them on SOME inserts... red star rollovers just look "odd" with LED's. The playfield and plastics.. use regular bulbs... LED's have such an odd color shift.. everything looks funky...

    -1
    #41 6 years ago

    The opposite of love isn't hate it is indifference.
    If you hate leds you have serious emotional issues.

    #42 6 years ago

    I think they work in some some better than others. I've only played 1 game that had them that I thought was too bright. The only thing I really don't like aboot them, is when it's used to in GI making diff'rent colored areas of the PF. Of course whatever people want to do to their machines isn't my business.

    Also, in my experience the flashers are a complete rip off. I think a white/colored 906/89 do a much better job (eXpecially 906s).

    #43 6 years ago

    I think they have a place in the darker areas of a machine, where there are lights, but not quite enough.

    Another place is in the roll over lanes at the top. On some machines it's really crowded/bright there, and a brighter bulb makes it easier to see for the skill shot and to show non-players what to do (with the flippers) easier.

    I really don't like them everywhere as they are too bright for me to enjoy a game...I guess I've gotten used to #47 bulbs.

    Robert

    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I think a white/colored 906/89 do a much better job (eXpecially 906s).

    This is also my practice when it comes to flashers.
    I leave them alone on most of my pins unless I want a cool white.
    Other than that,
    Colored or standard incandescent bulbs (906/89/63's) FTW.

    #45 6 years ago

    They kinda hurt my eyes.. But I live with it. Just not my fave.

    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Also, in my experience the flashers are a complete rip off. I think a white/colored 906/89 do a much better job (eXpecially 906s).

    +1 to this. The 89's are brighter than the LED equivalents, and you can color-match them to the domes for a really nice look.

    #47 6 years ago

    My only experience with LEDs is my AC/DC premium. They look great, although I will be changing the cool whites to warm shortly. My main gripe is how expensive they are and that to get the non ghosting or strobing LEDs, they are almost 2 bucks per bulb. That's insane. Like most technology, I can only hope it gets cheaper as time goes by. And, why would you still be selling the ones that have the issue after the new technology has corrected it going forward? I know in some instances it has to do with software because the same LED that does a fade effect perfectly on the AC/DC flickers like crazy in my TSPP when it should fade.

    #48 6 years ago

    If only I could choose multiple options.

    Ball strobing (sometimes - only a problem if this is the GI lighting. I've actually been planning to rig up a fullwave rectifier with a sufficiently sized filter capacitor so I can run the 3 playfield spotlights on No Fear off of warm white LEDs - they look okay as long as they're not behind anything. I feel like it could use a bit more light sometimes)

    Instant on/off (Kills some games that rely on the non-instant on/off for chase/wave effects - TZ in particular. I think the door panel "chase" lighting sequence is an abomination with LEDs installed, I've tried it. Though, on the same machine, I use LEDs in all the red inserts - the color saturation is so much better).

    Harsh color - This is what kills whites for GI purposes for me.

    5 years later
    #49 7 months ago
    Quoted from JDub1006:

    Or like taking a regular telephone and making it cordless or wireless, or replacing the typewritters with printers, or that guy that made the TV remote...you kids get off my lawn!!!!!!
    When I was a lad I use to walk up hill in 10 feet of snow to school each day!!
    You kids and your fancy lights

    If corded phones, typewriters, and television knobs were intended to be entertaining pieces of interactive art in their own right there might be an argument here.

    Instead, those devices are all merely delivery mediums at best. Pinball machines were/are created by artists with an experience in mind using the tools, influences, and technology available to their given era. I'm no purist, so 'enhance' your own personal experience through mods if it happens to look or function better for you. Go ahead. LEDs run cooler and are certainly brighter, if that's what you're going for - I can't knock them for that.

    For older machines though, LED overhauls can wreck the subtlety, visual balance, and playability. Superbrights in a darkened room cause serious eye strain; color zoning washes out a playfield's details; translite loses its glow with spotlights erupting out the back; and, maybe most unfortunately, machines can surrender their identity when all have had the same slap-dash conversion kits that the next artistically bereft modder had.

    Here's hoping 2050 doesn't yield a resurrection of our favored machines with revised features to match the times: bulky VR goggles projecting augmented realty automobile ads onto a playing surface with a picture-in-picture display of Facebook, our subdermal emotion chips interacting with multiple pop bumpers triggering both an endorphin release and a cascade of Mountain Dew from an IV unit into our bloodstream. What, you're not cool with hyper-edgy trends grandpa?

    #50 7 months ago

    I only hate led’s when you basically can’t see the game your trying to play without your eyes hurting. They are a must in my games. I love them when done right.

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