There shall only be one Medieval Madness.

Waitaminutehere... I'm kind of baffled by your comments. You're saying that the only way that people have lost value on machines in the last 14 years is when more of the machines are being made? That really isn't true - until just recently, even LOTR was available less than what NIB pricing is.

When machines instantly increase in value, it means the manufacturer is losing out on that money. That's not exactly good for the hobby. MM is a known moneymaker for routes, and a remake would almost ensure more of them go back on route to earn money, making pinball more visible.

The only thing that a remake might do that I can see as a possible negative is that people who paid $12k or whatever for players machines would lose value, but to me that's the thing with this hobby - if you're getting into it to make money and a loss of $7k on a pinball machine that you bought is overly bothersome to you, then you probably shouldn't have been spending $12k to begin with.

You might understand that to those of us with collections that will always be worth essentially nothing, the notion we should be happy to take one for the team in order to ensure that our betters' A-list games continue to stay safely out of our grubby reach is not something we necessarily embrace as a virtue.

1) If pinball becomes crazy popular, I doubt our collections would become worthless. At worst your A-titles would become a bit less valuable than recent releases.

2) Even if true, I won't care. I don't collect pins as an investment or for status, but as a hobby, or rather a passion. Will a drop in value prevent me from playing my pins? I doubt so! As long as other pins are in same value range, I can trade them when tired with them.

MM is a good pin and I would consider buying a remake... depending on price.

Haha, maybe the market, but it wouldn't hurt pinball. The market can take a knife in the back for all I care if the hobby just gets stronger. If you lose some money in that, well, guess what, that's how free markets work. Anyone who thinks their collection is just going to keep accruing value is fooling themselves.

And frankly, anyone who pays $15k for a pinball machine better just be happy to own it, because someone is gonna get stuck with that bill at some point. Fine with me if it's soon.

+1 True

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Just out of curiosity, has anyone from PP ever said why or why not they would/would not pursue this endeavor. Obviously its a guaranteed profit for them regardless of which option they used to get it done. It makes more sense than Stern gambling on every new game they put out from a financial standpoint.

So why would they leave money on the table with owning all the rights to this title?

I'm not taking about all stern, only the bad titles. I wrote before that since the operator days, people have made money back, and only gone up from there. While there were low times when most ops were purging, they had made their profit, and the selling the machines cheap around 2000 was still for profit. After this, prices have only gone up, and you by at x, and have always expected to make x+.

This has been consistent for a while, and despite everyone taking about bubble this and bubble that, I didn't see how that could change. If all sterns were winners for the most part, I wouldn't see a change, but since most are losers, and on top of that, more of a loser than your previous machines with the "LE", there is now this money invested that is not being returned to the pinball investor to yet invest again, but to gary stern directly, and with the mass losses on titles such as avengers and xmen and avaturd and the others to the pinball buyer, the community as a whole sees a loss in my opinion. The affects everyone and all values, and the money that is out there to invest.

If people keep buying into this blue koolaid LE and paying for lessor quality games than we were even getting 10 years ago from stern, I can see this eating enough money to make a dent in this hobby.

The newest stern's are way better than the foolish humour pin's of the 90's, forget MM I've owned it and most of the top bally/Williams and while they are great machines they seem kiddie now in comparison to the latest stern pins. Make more sci-fi and horror themed pins for adults as that's really who's buying them, arcades are dead for the most part. JJP making WOZ when it could have made a Blade Runner or Running man pin. WHY????????????

The newest stern's are way better than the foolish humour pin's of the 90's, forget MM I've owned it and most of the top bally/Williams and while they are great machines they seem kiddie now in comparison to the latest stern pins. Make more sci-fi and horror themed pins for adults as that's really who's buying them, arcades are dead for the most part. JJP making WOZ when it could have made a Blade Runner or Running man pin. WHY????????????

Zod saying this over and over again does not make it true
I respectfully disagree with everything you just said.

Amen.

Those pumping up Stern machines are going to get more of the same mediocity, year after year. IE cheaper versions of BW games from the "golden age". Zero innovation. Just cost cutting and price raising. Sad.

This Stern bashing / WMS vs Stern polemics are really getting on my nerves. Can't you just like pinball?

I own two sterns. They are far from turds. You may argue about innovation. Granted. Still, I enjoy them. Not all williams are great by the way.

And if you love Williams that much, you should all be enthusiastic about a new MM. More converts to the real church! More chances for the masses to approach the holy grail !

Please let this idiotic thread die....

I just do not see the need to remake MM unless they improve it. Why not make a game with low production run like CC and finish the code.

I'm sure that they would sell a lot more MM's then CC's. They would sell more then double.
A lot less risk to make MM first and see how it all goes.

And people blindly supporting Stern as they up the prices and crank out crap product which is recycled WPCs gets on other people's nerves.

It WILL do damage to this hobby. By then Gay will be out with a big $ to $ smile on his face, and everyone in the hobby will be holding up their arms asking what the hell just happened in the last 5 years...?!

Any way, we all do love pinball, and that is why we get passionate about aspects we see important.

Says the guy with 33 pins including a MM.

Not everyone has wallets that deep. Giving those people a chance to buy what is arguably the greatest pin of all time at a "reasonable" price is nothing but great.

A remake is obviously "needed" as that demand is handily outstripping the supply. Hence the over 10k price. If Stern can sell out 500 "LE" editions of whatever pin and that ends up in the aftermarket for only a $1000 premium, a MM remake would blow that out of the water sales-wise.

Zod - blade runner pin, I never thought of that. Instant purchase for me.

As for the manufacturer.. Do you really think they care about resell value or collectors market? No way. If they think it will be profitable they will make it period, think about it. If JJP made a MM pinball and it lowered your resell value on your original you probably would be not happy. Then they make a new quality pinball machine. Would this really stop you from considering that purchase because you lost some of your original investment on MM? It is very rare for any company to base their decision on factors like these.

The price/profit to be set for a run of repro MMs will (should) be based on economic analysis with estimates. In other words, to maximize profits. Charge too much, and too few will be sold even though profits per unit is higher. Alternatively, charge too little and overall profits go down as the profit margin is too slim (plus you are committing to tying up production lines longer, etc.).

So, here's a thought: perhaps a poll on what your MM Repro (MMR) price points are? First is the max price where you would definitely buy a MMR NIB. Second price point is the max price where you'd be on the fence (50/50)on whether to buy or not. Assume it is an exact repro (no enhancements to the game/art/software, but solid quality of artwork, clearcoat, mechs, etc. and all toys as in the original). Also assume that there are enough MMRs to go around, and they won't be 'limited.'

Given those guidelines, my price points are: $5k--definite buy; $6.5k--maybe. (As usual for me, it's not because I can't afford it, but because of my inescapable sense of 'value' for price paid.)

I'd pay $3000 for a NIB MM. Maybe more if I thought I wouldn't be keeping it.

I want what you're smoking.

It's fair. Not everyone has some unquenchable urge to own that game. I've passed on them multiple, multiple times for prices a lot of people would find mind blowing, and I'm not disappointed in my decisions one bit.

Only if you'll send me some White Castles.

I see things a different way. I live solo in a house which means I don't have the disposable income for a $15K MM. I can't see them as "investments" where there would be outrage suddenly if $4K remakes were made and your investment was "lost". To me, pinball machines are to be played and enjoyed. What else would draw us to them? They are not things I would buy for X dollars and hope to flip it for X+1 price(like MM). Those things are heavy to haul up & downstairs!

What fun is an exotic sportscar if it just sits in the garage all its life? Wouldn't you want to drive it around for fun, ie the product's intended purpose?

A pin you paid a lot more for suddenly won't stop working if a lesser-cost remake was made. You won't be any less popular to the kids on the street.

I'm no investment expert, I'm just one of those yokels that likes to zip a ball around in a multi-hundred or thousand dollar box of wood, wires, glass & plastic.

_{Post edited by s1500 : clarification}

I wasn't implying one would have to be high to pass on one. I do like to pick on odin, however and this was an opportunity i couldn't pass on. I don't think he cares.

I do think it's funny (strange) that he once owned a hep and now only would be willing to pay $3K for one but OK. Not a big deal.

You can get frozen ones at Costco, can't you If there were a practical way, i would. No hard feelings about any comments i sent your way, i hope. It's all in good fun.

Wait, what? Frozen White Castle's at Costco!.......going mañana

Just out, preview of new remake's playfield...

mm1.jpg

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No, not really. I just like to laugh. And this is good stuff.

Love it! Now I'm up to five grand.

does this mean that we'll be getting a limited edition "white" castle too?

There's one on Seattle CL right now for $8950. There's no reason to remake these, they can still be had for a reasonable price, you just have to be patient.
seattle.craigslist.org link

Something not quite right with this listing, several spelling errors, name of game spelt wrong and also the backglass is in perfect condition.

What do you guys think or am I just being a little too cautious, my prince albert is hurting a little, a bad sign.

That could be... I am not the poster nor have I contacted the guy about the game (omission of a phone number is a bit of a red flag). But that price is not far off from what I paid.

It would be fishy if a CL ad didn't have multiple spelling errors

fake as all hell

I blew all my money on hookers and blow.

That's not so far from me that I couldn't just drive up and grab it.
I emailed the guy and said I would take it we shall see what he says.

Me too. The rest I just wasted

He just pissed the rest away!

Sheen.jpeg

Hey guys. He's right. There's a used one here for $9000. There's no reason to remake these. This fake craigslist ad proves it. There's obviously zero demand for this pin, that's why they go for $10,000+. Genius.

The posts on this forum are amazing sometimes.

Mmmmm, White Castles! I've got three In-N-Out burgers within walking distance, and I'm craving a few fresh off the grill White Castles. WTF? You Easterners have got it made!

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Part of the problem is that you (and others) think that $8950 is a 'reasonable' price!

Don't drink and stumble into WhiteCastle. You pay in so many ways in the morning.
I hope someone eventually relaunches MM and several others. I think it would slow down escalating values, but not kill the current values on machines that get reproduced. Long-term 1st Gen collectables are always in most demand. I have 1st gen Star Wars figures, Mego Star Trek figures, Magic the Gathering (Beta Edition) cards that have been replicated plenty. Not everybody on this forum was alive when these items were first produced, but do to reproduction they have STAYED popular. It's a good sign for the hobby that machines get reproduced. They don't have to be exact copies outside of play dynamics.
I would still buy a new machine over a reproduction if the theme/play was to my liking. A GOT (Game of Thrones) or WD (Walking Dead) would be on my short list!

Exactly what I was thinking.

I think devaluing the blue chip games will erode values of the new titles *UNLESS* the new titles start getting *SUBSTANTIALLY* better. People will be like "why buy star trek le for $8K" when i can get MB or MM or AFM or whatever for $5K (or wherever the market settles on these). I know this sounds pretty self serving since i own afm and mm but it's the way i feel on the matter. I try not to price pump the titles i own. I actually price police them down a little. lol.

Wise words

I guess I won't have to worry about that. But I am about to stumble into work.

Old WMS games will never get remade and if they did, certainly wouldn't be south of 7k.

The pics from that CL post were lifted directly from http://www.pinballdiaries.com/.

Google reverse image search is your new best friend....

Wow, thanks for sharing that! I somehow had no idea that existed