(Topic ID: 181357)

ICE Flintstones Repair..


By Joker2415

2 years ago



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  • 79 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Joker2415
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There are 79 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 2 years ago

I had one light in the cave not working, traced it to a TIP 120, on the board, swapped it with what I have laying around, TIP 122, and the cave light now works the way it should during game play. One little problem solved.

The cave opto? Is working in reverse, I think this is why it's signal wire is running to a different section than the others. It is normally a broken beam, and when the ball ends up there? The foil on the ball completes the beam. I think?!!! I'm kind of....almost....sure?

Looking at it's design was driving me crazy trying to figure out how this was working at the board. Anyhow, I'm horrible with words look at the pics and see what I mean.

This game has to have a foil covered ball to work, or at least to work at the cave. I may be wrong on this, I'm just taking guess's. Again! Kind of almost sure!

Still haven't solved my coil problem yet....I'll trace it out and post the ic's number next, if I can't solve it before I get back to the board again.

The pic of the balls show the foil coating and what they look like when it's removed. Just kind of stinks it has to be a foil covered ball I kind of like the one that looked like a rock!, both of mine either have foil removed or foil falling apart. The foil covered ball is pictured on it's good side. The other is peeling. Eventually.....I may be able to rework this part to cause a broken beam, to trigger. I'm no where near that far yet!

I did try the foil ball to make sure my guess worked out. It does complete the path of the opto's, and drops signal from 10v to 5v. it will also stay at 5v when unplugged from the sensor. So.....trying to get that coil to stop with the opto unplugged? may not work like I thought. This gets confusing....haha.... unplugging the sensor? The CPU thinks there is a ball there! Now that I know this? I'll start fresh and try from the beginning.

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#52 2 years ago

OHHHH!!!! And here is another neat problem that just showed up! Cool! More things to figure out! I like puzzles!

I'll come back to this problem some other day!! Here's a pic...After all of that display work......I have to ignore it for now. That will be last on the list when everything else is working!

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#53 2 years ago

Ok, here's where I'm at. I'll try to spit this out clearly , since I tend to ramble.

The opto goes to pin6 of a MM74HC244N. I checked the whole chip, with a logic probe and there is no.....Timing(?) that is consistent with what the coil is doing.

I went backwards from the Mosfet that runs that coil, after a couple of resistor networks, ended up at Pin 2 (0v after about 10 to 12 seconds 5v over and over) , of a MC74HC273AN. I tried to read this diagram. That one is beyond what I know! So, I'm working on trying to understand it. On the same chip, PIN 3 is pulsing with no change , nice and consistent, Pin 11 is pulsing with no change, PIN one is staying the same. But! Pin 15 is also pulsing about every 10 seconds just like pin2, pin15 goes out to a character coil , which explains an earlier problem that I thought I solved! ?? Data on all DO lines pulsed with no change. Nice and smooth. All voltage stays the same on each pin of the chip except pin 2 and pin 15. How does that make sense? And only in game mode!

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC74HC273A-D.PDF

Clock? It's at 5v even.

I even swapped the chip with one further down the board, same outcome. Maybe, its feeding in from elsewhere? Bad resistor network? I'm grasping!

If I keep guessing? I'm bound to guess the right answer at some point!

#54 2 years ago

Can you post a good picture of the boards in the first picture in post 51? It looks like the comparitor may be on the opto board. This would be the logical answer if the output is feeding directly into a TTL chip like the MM74HC244N. I would doubt the designer would count on the reflection off the ball to trigger the opto. Seems unreliable. Are you sure the opto boards are mounted correctly in the first picture of post 51?

#55 2 years ago

Sure! I took a few more. I never get them in the right order. One is with the ball in place. I know it sounds out there, but the ball with the foil will complete the beam every time I tried. It's the only thing I could come up with. There isn't any other way that I can see to mount the eyes(?). with the coil unplugged? The ball landing there, will shut off the light that comes on when the ball trips the opto going into the cave at the other end. I'm not sure, I'm just throwing out guess's!

I kind of think the problem is at the other end. Whatever is working the mosfets for the coils, or along that line somewhere. I have 2 that are cycling about every 10 to 12 seconds. This only happens in game mode too. I'm trying to backtrack all the traces, But I gave up on it for tonight.

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#56 2 years ago

Well, that solves one mystery, the comparitor is on the opto board. The UA393TC is the comparitor chip. Also, it appears that your optos use LEDs on both sides like modern stern games. I see what you mean about the mounting, based on the wide path the ball can take to get into that corner, it looks like that the reflection path is what they used....

Are those the actual Opto boards that were in place in that location when you picked up the game? Can you carefully look at the other boards (the ones with the chip on them) to make sure they are identical? Hypothesis being there are some opto boards in the game that are "active blocked" vs "active not blocked". This can be changed by the circuit used with the comparitor. I seriously doubt they did it this way since it is MUCH easier to make all the opto boards the same and make the distinction in software.

So if you are seeing the output of the opto board change when the ball is in place vs not in place, we know the opto and boards are working. So you need to turn you attention to the control board. You mentioned the signal enters a MM74HC244N which is a buffer chip http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/MM74HC244-1011119.pdf Check that the hi and low signals are making it to the input of this chip. Then compare the signal on the associated output to ensure it also tracks the hi and low opto states. Note, pin 1 and 19 control when each bank of 4 buffers are allowed to operate. I suspect you should see pulsing on these or possibly always LOW.

#57 2 years ago

Pin 6 is low, when the sensor beam is connected pin6 goes high. No change at pulsing pin 14 or pulsing pin 1. No change at pin 19 pulse either.

I'll double check again...But the sensor is working to the chip. When the ball is in place pin 6 goes high. when I move the ball out of the way it drops back to low. I did this a few times to make sure.

Thanks again for the help! I found another solenoid cycling the same way.

All the opto boards in the front of the machine have the same chip. About 6 of them. I didn't get to the boards in the very back. I think there are 3 or 4 back there, I just assumed they are the same. If any would have been switched I'm guessing it would have been in easy to get to places up front.

Eventually.......I'd like to put a regular switch in that cave area so that any ball could be used.One of the little square switches with the flat on them. But, I'm no where near that idea yet!

#58 2 years ago

I also switched 2 ic's that were the same. My display problem went away. But I also had the board out and back in, connector, chip socket, or chip. Haven't narrowed it down yet. Cool!!!!That it's not in the display after all the work of resoldering and going over it!!!! That makes me happy!

#59 2 years ago

Pin 1 is the Enable line for group 1 (first set of 4 buffers in the chip). When it is low, the input (Hi/Lo) to the group 1 buffers will be represented on the output. When it is high, the output of the chip buffers go to high impedance (essentially not connected). This is how computer buses work, all the chips not sending data through the bus go high impedence and only the one chip intended to send in that clock cycle are enabled. All the chips that receive data have high impedance inputs so they do not need to be enabled/disabled, they just ignore data in which they are not interested.

So if pin 1 is pulsing (enabling and disabling), that indicates this chip is part of a bus of sorts. Pin 19 should be pulsing too. If it is not, I would be surprised.

Since the data is going onto a bus, you cannot simply use a logic probe to read the output of the chip as you do not know if you are reading the chips output or another chip on the bus. One thing is for sure, I would think all the outputs would typically be pulsing as you will be reading the data on the bus.

#60 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Pin 1 is the Enable line for group 1 (first set of 4 buffers in the chip). When it is low, the input (Hi/Lo) to the group 1 buffers will be represented on the output. When it is high, the output of the chip buffers go to high impedance (essentially not connected). This is how computer buses work, all the chips not sending data through the bus go high impedence and only the one chip intended to send in that clock cycle are enabled. All the chips that receive data have high impedance inputs so they do not need to be enabled/disabled, they just ignore data in which they are not interested.
So if pin 1 is pulsing (enabling and disabling), that indicates this chip is part of a bus of sorts. Pin 19 should be pulsing too. If it is not, I would be surprised. Because the data is going onto a bus, you cannot simply use a logic probe to read the output of the chip as you do not know if you are reading the chips output or another chip on the bus. One thing is for sure, I would think all the outputs would typically be pulsing as you will be reading the data on the bus.

If I took a bread board and the Ic's? Is there a simple way to make a test fixture? To test each chip out of circuit with just voltage? just a O to 5v. type of thing? . I kind of get the idea of what your saying above, but I still get lost with this.

And yes, pin 19 is pulsing too.

Ok, glad you explained the High impedence then, I was trying to understand that and wasn't sure what that meant, when looking at the data sheet ....That is kind of like neutral? it's just parked? type of thing. until another chip or Gate(?) needs to read that signal or is told to read it? "read" is the wrong word, It's the only way I could think of it.

#61 2 years ago
Quoted from Joker2415:

If I took a bread board and the Ic's? Is there a simple way to make a test fixture? To test each chip out of circuit with just voltage? just a O to 5v. type of thing? . I kind of get the idea of what your saying above, but I still get lost with this.
And yes, pin 19 is pulsing too.
Ok, glad you explained the High impedence then, I was trying to understand that and wasn't sure what that meant, when looking at the data sheet ....That is kind of like neutral? it's just parked? type of thing. until another chip or Gate(?) needs to read that signal or is told to read it? "read" is the wrong word, It's the only way I could think of it.

You sure could! Apply power to the chip 5v and ground. Tie pin 1 and 19 to 5V, apply 5V or 0V (with an actual wire to ground) and measure the outputs. With 1 and 19 at 5V, no matter what you put on each buffer input should result in nothing on the outputs.

Apply 0V to 1 and 19. With 5V on each buffer input, you should see 5V on each buffer output. With 0V on each input you see 0V on each output.

Of course, this will only measure the basic operation of the chip, it will not measure how well it performs "at speed".

#62 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You sure could! Apply power to the chip 5v and ground. Tie pin 1 and 19 to 5V, apply 5V or 0V (with an actual wire to ground) and measure the outputs. With 1 and 19 at 5V, no matter what you put on each buffer input should result in nothing on the outputs.
Apply 0V to 1 and 19. With 5V on each buffer input, you should see 5V on each buffer output. With 0V on each input you see 0V on each output.
Of course, this will only measure the basic operation of the chip, it will not measure how well it performs "at speed".

Ok, I'll do that! I can use the machines 5v line since it's at 5v exactly. Then I can test all of those same chips in the bread board. It will maybe at least show if there is a major problem with one of them. And also for me to get more experience reading the tables. If I fry one by accident? They aren't that expensive, I looked on Ebay already.

Oh wait!!! I probably shouldn't have mentioned the bread board! My dad reads this! I think he was looking for that ! Shhhhhhhh Joking.....Actually he just gave me all kinds of stuff to use, to try to learn how to repair these.

#63 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You sure could! Apply power to the chip 5v and ground. Tie pin 1 and 19 to 5V, apply 5V or 0V (with an actual wire to ground) and measure the outputs. With 1 and 19 at 5V, no matter what you put on each buffer input should result in nothing on the outputs.
Apply 0V to 1 and 19. With 5V on each buffer input, you should see 5V on each buffer output. With 0V on each input you see 0V on each output.
Of course, this will only measure the basic operation of the chip, it will not measure how well it performs "at speed".

Just on a quick test, kind of playing around......Using the normal voltage supply line from the chips socket to run my bread board. Voltage hooked to the chip only! I also have my logic probe hooked up. Some of the chips legs are pulsing? I touched the probe to VCC no pulse Just a nice bright high, I touched it to ground, dead ground. Does the chip make it's own pulse? This is before anything else is hooked up. Just supply voltage and ground. I'm really confused now...haha

#64 2 years ago
Quoted from Joker2415:

Just on a quick test, kind of playing around......Using the normal voltage supply line from the chips socket to run my bread board. Voltage hooked to the chip only! I also have my logic probe hooked up. Some of the chips legs are pulsing? I touched the probe to VCC no pulse Just a nice bright high, I touched it to ground, dead ground. Does the chip make it's own pulse? This is before anything else is hooked up. Just supply voltage and ground. I'm really confused now...haha

No, the 74HC244 does not have it's own clock. With the inputs just floating (not pulled to 0 or 5) the buffers may be oscillating or you just might be picking up noise. Try tying all the inputs to 0 or 5v (don't forget the enable lines) and see if the oscillating still occurs.

#65 2 years ago

+1 to Schwaggs
+1 to Joker

You guys rock.

#66 2 years ago
Quoted from altan:

+1 to Schwaggs
+1 to Joker
You guys rock.

I'm just living vicariously through Joker!

#67 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

I'm just living vicariously through Joker!

I hear that joker guy isn't all together right! He thinks he's some kind of game machine mechanic or something!

I see what your saying about the floating pins now. That makes sense since the pulse was different strengths, Some were real weak..

I'll do what you said above, and take all pins to 0 or 5v. I'm kind of nervous getting on the floor to test these chips at night! These GA spiders are HUGE that come out and run around the garage at night!!!!! I can actually hear them running across cardboard, and their eyes glow in the light!! I think one ran off with my meter!!!! He can have it! Go to step on them? Have to be fast! They jump out of the way!! They are moving a little slow tonight though...

#68 2 years ago

Thank you!!

Ok.....I couldn't wait , I just watched my back for the spiders!!!.....One tested through the table like it should. I'm glad I did that, It makes it easier to see what that table is saying when you can manually manipulate the chip. It did for me!

Here are a couple more pics... The only solid wire I had to use with the bread board was white. I had to stop and think a few times so that I didn't get things mixed up. Tried both 1 and 19, High or low, while checking outputs with both banks tied high and low. Z has no change on my probe.

Now, to check the other two!

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#69 2 years ago
Quoted from altan:

+1 to Schwaggs
+1 to Joker
You guys rock.

You have Marble Madness?!!! I was looking through your page. I have 3 NES games from when I was a kid. Marble Madness, Turtles, and Shadowgate. I played Marble madness for hours and hours! Just recently dug the system out just to play it again! I didn't even know there was an arcade version out there! Too cool!

I'll trade you an ICE Flintstones! Minor issue.....Might just be a fuse or loose wire or something.......... Adult owned and never beat on! I'm joking!!!!!! I'm going to fix this thing if it takes me years and help! It will work! one day!

#70 2 years ago
Quoted from Joker2415:

You have Marble Madness?!!! I was looking through your page. I have 3 NES games from when I was a kid. Marble Madness, Turtles, and Shadowgate. I played Marble madness for hours and hours! Just recently dug the system out just to play it again! I didn't even know there was an arcade version out there! Too cool!
I'll trade you an ICE Flintstones! Minor issue.....Might just be a fuse or loose wire or something.......... Adult owned and never beat on! I'm joking!!!!!! I'm going to fix this thing if it takes me years and help! It will work! one day!

Oh the humanity! Not knowing MM was an Atari arcade game first!

#71 2 years ago
Quoted from altan:

Oh the humanity! Not knowing MM was an Atari arcade game first!

Yes!! The cool kids were at the arcade! I was at home trying to load pong on the trs80 with a cassette tape! I think you may have to even turn the tape over!!!! Actually, we had some cool arcades where I lived. I just don't ever remember seeing Marble Madness.

I put the flintstones aside for today! I had a piece of plywood to make a High Speed cab. I have a circular saw and a dremel. We'll see how that turns out! I just basically wanted to get the wood down into smaller pieces for now, so It's not right in the middle of my way!!! No where to put the whole 4x8 sheet, type of thing.

#72 2 years ago

I know this is off topic......But like I mentioned above. I had to get this wood into smaller pieces so it wasn't sitting on the garage floor sucking up moisture or warping. All I had here to cut it with is a circular saw, some clamps, and whatever I could find laying around as a straight edge. The only wood I had long enough for a straight edge was warped and twisted like crazy, so I used it to hold the shorter piece of metal I found.

I'm posting this? Because I'm actually shocked that I was able to cut it as accurately as I did!! I'm still in disbelief! I thought for sure my $50 board was going to just end up as a pile of saw dust ! I had one little edge mark from moving my guide since I didn't have anything long enough, it only moved out about a 1/6 of an in. if it's even that much, the picture makes it look worse than it is, because of the angle I took the pic at. Other than that? The sides are great!! In the pic, they aren't cut too short, the front and the back of the cabinet are notched to overlap about an 1/8 in or a little less to cover the side edges. The last two pics are with both sides stacked to show how close you can get it with just a circular saw!!!

Ok...Back to the Flintstones now that this 4x8 sheet of board is out of my way! I can work on the HS cabinet here and there as a break from the Flintstones.

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#73 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

No, the 74HC244 does not have it's own clock. With the inputs just floating (not pulled to 0 or 5) the buffers may be oscillating or you just might be picking up noise. Try tying all the inputs to 0 or 5v (don't forget the enable lines) and see if the oscillating still occurs.

ok...The chip in circuit......Pin 6 is staying at 5v. 1G(pin 1) is staying at 5v, pin 14 is at 1.65v while in attract mode and jumps to 2v in game mode.

My question...That makes the chart come out to Z (if I'm reading that right) ? Shouldn't 1G be changing to get an output for 14 when the opto is tripped? or does that happen too fast for a meter to pick up? I'm going to go back and try that again, to try to fully understand what is happening there in circuit, when the opto is tripped. And where that signal eventually ends up.

If I wrote all of that straight...

#74 2 years ago
Quoted from Joker2415:

ok...The chip in circuit......Pin 6 is staying at 5v. 1G(pin 1) is staying at 5v, pin 14 is at 1.65v while in attract mode and jumps to 2v in game mode.
My question...That makes the chart come out to Z (if I'm reading that right) ? Shouldn't 1G be changing to get an output for 14 when the opto is tripped? or does that happen too fast for a meter to pick up? I'm going to go back and try that again, to try to fully understand what is happening there in circuit, when the opto is tripped. And where that signal eventually ends up.
If I wrote all of that straight...

You definitely will not be able to see it with a meter. If you want to see it, you will need a multi input oscilloscope or better yet a logic analyzer!

These opto inputs come into the 74HC244. The CPU is enabling (dropping to 0V) 1G (and probably 2G), which puts the data on the bus so the CPU can read the state of the Optos. It happens multiple times per second which is why you can't read it with a meter.

When 1G and/or 2G is low, the outputs are the same as the inputs.

When 1G and/or 2G is high, the outputs are high Z (high impedance) and the inputs have no effect on the outputs.

#75 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You definitely will not be able to see it with a meter. If you want to see it, you will need a multi input oscilloscope or better yet a logic analyzer!
These opto inputs come into the 74HC244. The CPU is enabling (dropping to 0V) 1G (and probably 2G), which puts the data on the bus so the CPU can read the state of the Optos. It happens multiple times per second which is why you can't read it with a meter.
When 1G and/or 2G is low, the outputs are the same as the inputs.
When 1G and/or 2G is high, the outputs are high Z (high impedance) and the inputs have no effect on the outputs.

I have a 2 input(?) scope. I guess it's time to do some reading on how to hook it up! No clue what it would tell me ....but...it will give me a reason to try it out!

I'm going to order a few of each IC. I know I have 1 bad one so far, for sure.

I'm also cleaning all the glue off of everything from tape everywhere. And some of the dirty stuff from above and under the playfield. Doing any touch ups on the cabinet etc.....Just so I keep moving forward, until I learn enough, or figure out the problem with the circuit board.

#76 2 years ago

Ok!!! I got tired of being twisted up like a pretzel trying to check pins. And I couldn't ever seem to find the right place to put the work light!

After, a few min of looking at the front of the machine? I made some temporary adjustments! Now! I can see and sit right there at the board.

The whole front is screwed and bolted together. I'm glad too! That was getting old trying to get in there to see, hold on pins, had a step in my side etc....Problem solved! Took about 20 min. since I didn't see all the screws at first.

front 017 (resized).JPG

1 week later
#77 2 years ago

I haven't given up!!! I'm studying the control board. I'm also eventually going to order most of the IC's on the control board, just to start from a point where I'll know what is good. I've kind of started tracing everything out to make my own type of schematic. That is really time consuming for me and I'm kind of studying things as I go. Also, still looking for a real schematic . Someone has to have one tucked in a drawer or box somewhere!!

I might start building something for the ball release. Even though I don't have the control board working 100% right now. At least I'll have something started for the ball release when I finally get the control board figured out.

That's where I'm at right now...I'm not giving up on this thing! No matter how long it takes!!!! well?......... yet!

1 month later
#78 2 years ago

I haven't read the entire thread but I just wanted to tune in...
A Flintstones just arrived at the Dutch Pinball Museum. If you need any comparisons, pictures etc please let me know.

I just started looking for parts and information today so I can get that game playable hopefully.
The game at the DPM is working more or less. It has a few hacks, wrong transformer settings and improvised backbox lighting. Someone put a fluorescent tube in there, its fried. Both the bottom flippers are beyond repair probably. There is no manual. Many more small things...

Joker2415 do you have a manual?

3 weeks later
#79 2 years ago
Quoted from jrcw:

I haven't read the entire thread but I just wanted to tune in...
A Flintstones just arrived at the Dutch Pinball Museum. If you need any comparisons, pictures etc please let me know.
I just started looking for parts and information today so I can get that game playable hopefully.
The game at the DPM is working more or less. It has a few hacks, wrong transformer settings and improvised backbox lighting. Someone put a fluorescent tube in there, its fried. Both the bottom flippers are beyond repair probably. There is no manual. Many more small things...
Joker2415 do you have a manual?

Sry, Ive been away from the computer for a while and just saw your post today.

I don't have a manual. but I can take pics of whatever you need from my machine. I have most all of the wiring figured out.

If you contact ICE through their website, they have been extremely helpful with answering questions by Email, in my experience. You may have some luck there.

Or if I can help in any way just let me know. I'm no expert and have just been playing around ....but .....Who knows? I may know the answer!(or pretend to know,guess,make stuff up etc......)

On the backbox lighting. Those are just 12v bulbs(I found out that 90LL are the correct bulbs for this game) and sockets in there. You can get them at just about any auto part store or Ebay. The two wires that power the backbox lights come from right beside the black relay on the main board P12, it says "Output" right below the connector. The "Input" P11, comes from one of the transformers, it's 12v DC. They are the two smaller red wires coming from the big transformer. I'll give polarity when I get a chance to get inside the game and look with a meter, I'm not even sure there is any identifying marks on the wires to tell which is positive or negative. You may have already found all of that by now. I just thought I would throw it in here in case you haven't. It's just something that I do know from playing around with my game when trying to sort out the lighting issue. There is no fuse on that line! And I had melting issues from the the wrong bulbs being in the game. I added a fuse link to the input coming from the transformer to help prevent any future melt downs in that area.

The Backbox lights turn off during game play and I believe they flash at different points in the game.

Another thing....In the volume setting...To get the volume to go to a lower setting. Push the start button at the same time as setting the volume. the game goes into a quieter mode. Other wise I think your lowest setting is 6. By pushing the start button it will allow you to drop below 6 and go the whole way down to 1. I originally thought this was a bug in my game, but later found out it's just the way the setting works in this game. It's not a fault.

I had to drop everything for a month or so and have not even touched any of the projects I have going..haha I haven't given up yet! Just on hold! I will figure this game out eventually.

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