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why would you want a child rapist pin in your house? anyone harming innocent children like this should be executed or murdered in prison by inmates "my america" style.

if someone did this to my child i would feed his scraps to the fish.

just because the rapist bought his freedom doesn't make it "ok"

sorry gweempose but i am certain jjp and gary have the moral compass not to make a pin from a pos scumbag.

i guess you have different values.

I agree with everything you said...EXCEPT...

The I guess you have different values.... THAT WAS FLAT OUT UNCALLED FOR..

Brian is a super cool guy.... he's no scumbag...

I agree with this!

i never called him that PERIOD. i was saying different values from jjp and gary stern. i am sorry for any confusion, it was NOT meant to put him down.

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I stepped out with my family for a few hours and had some time to think about my whole argument. After mulling it over, I've now somewhat changed my stance. While I still like his music and think it would make for a fun pin, I agree that it would be in bad taste to build such a machine. As a jew, I would never put a Mel Gibson themed pin in my game room, and as a parent, I would be a hypocrite if I put a Michael Jackson pin in my game room. I still stand by my assertion, however, that nothing Michael Jackson did, regardless of how reprehensible, negates his former accomplishments. It most definitely has an impact on his legacy, but that's something entirely different.

Epic pin add a moon walking mj like the rolling stones pin to aim for and the music selection would be great.

If it's any consolation, at least he's dead.

Propofol Multiball!

New Wave and Punk Rock can definitely put hair on your chest.

Listen to Black Flag and Flock of Seagulls. Trust me.

I can't hate on the music. Thriller was like the first cassette I ever owned and I made my mom turn it in for me when I was going to bed and fell asleep to it.

I also likes the video game lol. Smooth Criminal was the jam.

As human beings we certainly have the ability to separate an artist's creative works from their actions. Just because someone likes Michael Jackson's music, doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong with them or their enjoyment of it. The same could be said for a themed pinball machine or any form of entertainment for that matter.

I mean come on, how many guys here have touted how great Judas Priest was but fail to mention that Dave Holland (drummer during their "best years") was also convicted of the attempted rape and sexual abuse of a mentally ill boy?

This stuff happens all the time. Francis Ford Coppola financially supported the guy who wrote and directed "Jeepers Creepers" for years after he was convicted of raping a 12 year old and videotaping it, but I doubt anyone is going to burn their copies of The Godfather.

It's easy to dismiss or bash something when you have no attachment to it. As residents of the "civilized world" we use products every single day that have been created by child or forced labor at some point in their creation which in itself, is a form of abuse. Ipods, phones, coffee (yes, even "fair trade"), cotton, tobacco, leather, electronics... the list goes on, but I don't see people smashing their phones on the ground in protest.

I'm ranting now, so I'll stop. But since it is a new pinball table, I'll leave you with this brief video of Metallica covering Michael Jackson's "Beat It" in 2009, 2 months after MJ's death and well after his trials.

agreed with matt G......MJs music is great what he has done is a different story but as a artist is one of the all time greats.......so everyone else just beat it!

How many guys are asking for a Dave Holland pin?

A drummer that 99% of people in the world would not know his name might be different than Michael Jackson, a household name.

I guess it makes it OK. Let's rape.

with so many posts I think the MJ pinball will be a hit

I think you are misunderstanding me. Firstly, there are plenty of guys on here would love a Judas Priest pin. Just do a forum search for "Judas Priest" (under "posts" not "topics") and you'll see exactly what I mean. What I was pointing out was the irony of bashing one artist for his crimes, while in the same post, praising another band who have a member who was convicted of the very same crimes. A pot-meets-kettle situation.

My stating "these things happen all the time" is in no way condoning any acts of violence. I was illustrating the fact that talented people do bad things all the time and then continue to have long, profitable careers and dedicated fans regardless of their actions. I thought mentioning Victor Salva, Coppola and Holland would make that point clear. Quoting just the small portion of what I wrote out of context is just being inflammatory. For example, I could simply put:

The obvious differences are:

1. No one knows who the drummer from Judas Priest was.

2. No one knows of his crime.

3. The drummer is not the principle member of Judas Priest.

"the fact that talented people do bad things all the time and then continue to have long, profitable careers and dedicated fans regardless of their actions."...this doesnt make it right or OK. its part of the problem in our society today that this happens. its a symptom of many things. apathy, idiocy, ignorance, and is evidence of the further demise of our society.(can you say spitzer or wiener). people need to have conviction. unfortunately we have more people who watch reality TV and consider it a news source than we have people with conviction. with that we get a MJ pin.

this.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is not ok to make an MJ pin because he was a super famous child molester who also happens to be dead and would receive no monetary compensation for the game.

But you think it would be ok to make a Judas Priest pin because only ONE member of their band was a child molester who is still alive and would possibly receive monetary profits from it's sale?

Q: A few years ago, Dave Holland, your former drummer, was imprisoned for sexual harassment and more or less at the same time you were re-releasing your old material in the form of a box set, and you erased Holland from all the album liner pictures. Why did you decide to act in this way towards your old bandmate and the drummer who was a member of the band for 8 years?

Rob Halford (vocals): As you know, we've had many drummers, we're almost like the living "Spinal Tap" in some respects. The drumming for any band is absolutely vital, it's the anchor, and it's what keeps the band locked together. So after going through 3 or 4 drummers we finally found the best man for the job, Scott Travis and he's been with us for how many years, Scott? He doesn't want to remember…

Scott Travis: 19, I think.

Rob: Since "Painkiller", so we're talking 18 years now. So there's a reflection of thanks to all the drummers who we've worked with for doing great work but it's important to reinforce that Scott Travis is the exclusive drummer for JUDAS PRIEST.

======

See? Even his bandmates have erased him from the band pictures.

They do not want to reward him in any way.

If only Billie Jean would have listened and believed him?!?

No one said it was right or OK. It is however, reality. How many of us actually look into or research every single thing we purchase, watch or listen to? The odds are, not many of us. People can't live their lives worrying about all of the possible bad things that happen or have happened as a result of human cruelty. Conviction is a heavy word to throw around considering how much of our lifestyle is based on the suffering of others.

The question is, how far are you willing to take that conviction? Does it go beyond "I won't buy this product if it has (insert scandalous person) on it."? Would you buy an electric car solely to prevent the violence caused by oil? Would you settle for a Titanium wedding ring to prevent the numerous deaths caused by the diamond trade? Would you stick to locally grown food to provide for hard working independent farmers over the chemical-filled agri-business?

If you want to talk about apathy, ignorance and the lack of conviction in society, an MJ pin seems tame in comparison. Each one of us has our own personal "level of acceptance" when it comes to this stuff. You may say "Hey, that guy sucks because he likes Michael Jackson who abused kids!" While the next guy might look at you and say "Hey, that guy sucks because he uses fossil fuels instead of renewable energy!"

It's all a matter of perspective.

The Judas Priest example was one of two intended to illustrate a point and I'm sure google could provide many more. I'm fairly certain that the posts made by other pinsiders throughout the forums regarding how much they would love a "Judas Priest" pin were referring to "classic Priest" (which Holland was a member of) as they are often littered with nostalgic thoughts.

Taking that single example and running it into the ground doesn't do anything to move the conversation forward, it just sticks everyone in the mud. I think it's time we throw it in 4WD and move on. Although i do commend you on it my friend, very Fox news of you!

On a personal note, I would play an MJ pin. I would also play a Judas Priest pin. Hell, I'd play a Pee-Wee's playhouse themed pin just because that show was so out of this world with setting and characters. The point is that we can separate the product from the producer and still enjoy the experience. Furthermore, all of us already do it all of the time.

I had the privilege of designing and presenting a complete "new" music-based toy line to MJ in NYC just before he went on his final tour. We worked with him for a while and he was the most respectful and nicest guy (his kids too). He signed some stuff for us and liked the toy line and concepts. We never discussed a pinball though. He was super talented all around. Jpop

This was precisely my internal conflict. Ultimately, I decided that buying an MJ pin and displaying it in my game room is something that I wouldn't be comfortable with. That being said, I would still probably go see the MJ Cirque du Soleil show in Vegas. If he was alive, I might have to think twice about it, though, as that would be contributing to his monetary gain. This is why I haven't seen a Mel Gibson movie in the theater or rented one ever since he went on his anti-Semitic tirade years ago. I simply refuse to give the guy any of my money. It's a shame too, because I think he's a very talented actor. Braveheart is one of my favorite films, and I love the Mad Max and Lethal Weapon movies.

I think what others have been trying to convey to you is that Dave Holland is a "nobody". 99.9999% of all the people on earth would not know him if he was sitting at the bar next to them.

He was already out of the band for 15 years when he committed his crime.

Judas Priest did the right thing, they disowned him and removed his pictures from the best of collections. They even discussed removing his drum tracks and re-recording them, but did not own the recordings to do so.

"Nobody" or not, the guy still collects royalties on any albums or dvd's sold that he took part in. Just because they took him out of the liner notes doesn't mean that he doesn't get a cut of the profit. Unless a Priest pin contained no studio tracks pre-1989 (highly unlikely) he would most certainly get some cash for it.

After this thread I'll seriously thinking of quitting pinside. Its seems freaks evade everything on the internet, how about a Hilter pin you freaks?! Also F**K the separation of the musician and his private life, a perv is a perv!

I disagree. Les Binks was their drummer during their best years (and a far superior drummer, too).

If he does not have any composer/songwriting credits for any Judas Priest songs, then he does not get any ASCAP checks in the mail.

Normally when a band replaces a non song writing member, they pay him for studio time and tour time as a hired gun.

(Think KISS - only Gene and Paul are paid as the "group" - any new member is a hired gun. Same with Whitesnake - Coverdale is the only "member", he hires studio musicians and touring musicians to be his band. James Brown's estate gets royalties for all of the "Funky Drummer" samples in every pop song - but Clyde Stubblefield, the actual drummer on those recordings, gets nothing at all.)

Dave Holland was a hired gun for the 8 years he was in the band. He was paid for his performances as they occurred, but receives no ongoing royalties.

Trivia question- how many different drummers had Priest had or used?

10?

At last count I had 8, but that was a few years ago, so you could be correct. On Sin after Sin they used Simon Philips (a great musician) as a guest drummer.

I was just guessing, I'm sure you are right.

Good guess though. But when somebody post's about Dave Holland and best in the same sentence, I have to reply. Binks was the bomb!

And saying that Priests best years are when he was a member, is like saying Metallica's best years started with The Black Album.

Fortunately Stern and JJP read this forum and can see there are plenty of people who hate the idea of this theme and would have a hard time supporting either company on future pins if they dropped to the level of making a child molester pin.

I am also surprised by some of the rationalization in this thread. Had I ever bought a single Michael Jackson album, single, CD, DVD, tee shirt, concert ticket, etc, etc I might be rationalizing too. The money he made from his fans who continue to look the other way enabled him to molest and pay off children and avoid prison all the way to the day he died.

MJ pin would be the best.

This is exactly what I'm talking about BadPenny. The only reason it is scandalous is because it's so out in the open for everyone to see, but the question still stands, at what point does your personal enjoyment or convenience cause that line of reasoning become unimportant? When does the hard-nosed stance of "this bad thing happened, so I won't support it's products!" go away?

I mean seriously, how many of us have been to a baseball game where they play Rock and Roll #2 (Duuuh-duh-HEY! da duh da duh!) and sing along in playful glee? I'd say more than a few of us have, but does anyone think of how Gary Glitter was busted for kiddie porn and had sex with a 14 year old while we are singing? Would you refuse to watch any baseball game that uses it?

This is not true at all. While singer/songwriters (and of course, the owners of the rights) do get a larger piece of the pie, individual performers certainly do get "performance royalties" that extend to existing material that they participated in that is played, used, sold, remastered, etc. Holland was a core member of the group for nearly ten years, not a session musician and as such would be eligible for such royalties. The only way he would be ineligible is if he opted out of them at contract time in favor of a payout.

Since my deescription of Rock and Roll #2 was lacking, here's a clip playing the song.

Sorry, that is not how the music biz works; although it is a popular misconception.

The composer, publisher or songwriter(s) get their royalty checks a few times a year from ASCAP or BMI. This money is collected from radio airplay, jukeboxes ..... Note that ONLY the songwriter gets paid by ASCAP/BMI.

Many bands make up a backstory how they all met at a party in some basement and formed a rock solid unit. Maybe somewhere 4 guys incorporated as band and split the proceeds equally between them, but that would be far from the norm.

As a songwriter, you would have to be an idiot to split your ASCAP check with the drummer, bass player, keyboardist, ect ect by listing them as composers.

The record company will pay for each CD sold, about 15 cents to the artist (yes, I still have my Geffen contract from the 80s to prove this - back when a CD sold for $16, LOL). My "entertainment" attorney told me that Madonna had the best CD deal in the world at 95 cents per sale.

Again, you as the songwriter or frontman of the band, would have to be an idiot to split your meager 15 cents per CD, five ways with the non essential members of the group.

Other than some standout musicians that would add net sales to your CD (Neil Pert, Stanley Clark, Joe Satriani) most guitarists, drummers, bass players are completely replaceable by any session musician.

In fact, many of the records you love have much more talented studio session players performing on them rather than the "band" members themselves.

Just like porn stars, session musicians are paid ONE TIME for their performance. They get no residuals.

Dave Holland was Priest's 8th drummer (I looked it up), so believe me, he was a hired gun.

Nice tidbit:

In 2002 when Bob Daisley (bass) and Lee Kerslake (drums) tried to sue Ozzy and Sharon Osborn for songwriting credits on Diary of a Madman, Ozzy had their tracks re-recorded to completely eliminate them from the "band".

So only if you bought the pre 2002 CD do you have the "real" version of the album.

A "band" is only some guys who can get along long enough to play a song. Music is a business.

193 posts on a Michael Jackson pin. Really, I assumed this was a joke but people actually took time to comment on it.

Shamone

I wrote a paragraph about this but decided to delete it. We're running off topic and like I said before, "getting stuck in the mud." I realize that I'm just letting myself be baited and pulled back to discuss a single example of a much broader discussion.

This is what I'm getting at. You've made your opinion clear on why you wouldn't play or purchase an MJ pin. What I was asking was, "At what point does it become OK"? Is there a time limit, or certain degrees of separation? Why is having an MJ pin morally wrong, but having an entire stadium singing a child abusers song perfectly OK? (see Gary Glitter reference above)

What if you found out that a sexual offender happened to work in the factory where your car was built, or that one of the phone operators for the cable company was registered and as such, your purchase power was helping to provide them a paycheck? Would you cancel your cable service?

Quite a few times in the thread folks have talked abut how MJ was famous, and that somehow makes the situation "different" - I am struggling to understand how. If the separation of product and producer is indeed that difficult to make, it would seem that it applies to everything great and small.

The truth is, unless it is in the face of the public, people generally don't care. Heck, sometimes even when it is in the face of the public, they still don't care! How many folks reading here have seen "The Hangover"? How many laughed at Mike Tyson? How many walked out of the theater when they realized he was a convicted rapist? If box office charts and sequels indicate anything, not too many!

It's everywhere. From music, to movies, to pro sports (especially pro sports!) all the way down to the people who work mundane jobs. It is our ability to separate the product from the producer that allows us to enjoy any of these things and yes, enjoying them is OK. If we couldn't do that, we'd all be miserable all the time. It isn't rationalization, it's the reality we live in.

A good friend just asked me "What the hell are you arguing with people on the internet for?"

I had absolutely no answer! As much as i love talking about this kind of stuff, it's time to bow out of this thread (especially before my wife finds out I'm arguing about Michael Jackson and Judas Priest on a pinball forum!).

Also, with all of the abbreviations and autolinks around here, I hope MJ Michael Jordan never stumbles upon these forums and thinks we're talking about him!

Great line to use when you are losing an argument - noted. Theorize about conspiracy much?

All snarkyness aside, thank you.