There the perfect post agree to disagree . hey Dude I like your style..

Trick or treat!

th.jpeg

You haven't played Metallica LE. Period. How did the Pro casket Multiball play? Tell me about that scoring. Did you shoot for the loops on Fuel to ring up spinner points? How did the snake mouth drop work on that Pro? Same game and all.

You wanted to smoke both and you did. Congrats. You got your rating in via a horse shit excuse. The reputation and credibility of this place are well deserved.

"Relax... It's only pinball".

-Rudy

The only thing I have to wonder is ...

How does one rate a game that isn't finished? When the game is finished, do you go back and change your rating?

They're not the same game, the LE/Prem is worse than the Pro IMHO. Others may disagree. Either way, to rate it without playing is stupid, they just don't feel the same.

I wouldn't call Metallica hard. It's a fun game to play but it's not hard. And I think ToM has faster whip-backs.

How so? Did he kick you in your vagina when you werent looking?

The voice of reason in the midst of the insanity that is caused by some's addiction to pinball.

The only thing I wonder...
How does one sell a game that isn't finished?

At least we played it! Give it any rating you want just play it first! At least try to have some credibility here!

I had a Premium Monster in my house for almost a week, getting it dialed in before it went on location at Replay Lounge in Lawrence.

/sacrilege While I don't personally care for the band Metallica, /sacrilege off

...it is a fun pin to play and I think my 8.4 rating is pretty dead on. The software has a long way to go and will determine if it ends up just a "fun" pin or a "great" pin and I'll adjust my rating once it's finished.

The callouts just don't fit though. The hammer? The ball would start to drop, like it was flinching away from the hammer before the hammer came down. That effect needs work and will raise my rating it it gets fixed up. Needs better sound effects too. That outer loop post is just badly designed/implemented. Sure, you can fix that yourself with a metal post but then, that's not what we're rating here is it? We're rating the machine as it comes from the factory.

Tons of really good stuff in this pin, but it's absolutely NOT perfect.

It's a shame as I think it's the best *artwork* that Stern has ever done, playfield, cab and translight.

Oops, i just realized i rated WOZ LE and i played a standard. Honest mistake?

That's a question for pretty much every pinball manufacturer of SS machines, ever.

A ton of people feel this way, but don't post about it because you end up with the BS that's ensued here. The few people who love this game are really loud about it. If you love it, good for you. Now that everyone and their mother is a Stern distributor there is a lot more bashing on people hating on Stern games. It's just the new "positive minded" Pinside I guess.

BTW, I disagree with your opinion on the art, I think it's dumb. I get why it's like that, but I don't like it. Other than that, spot on review. The game is extremely meh.

Disagree with the art assessment but no sweat, great post Jalpert!

PUSHEAD, FTW.

Not really, bug fix updates are very different from unfinished game updated

So what?

You can say the opposite about several pins too, including MET:

"The few people who hate this game are really loud about it".

What does it prove?

One person's bug is another person's unfinished game.

I said "pretty much" ...yeah, TOM might be one of the fastest, flowiest games ever - although it's rarely talked about in that respect. It's often Ritchie getting the kudos for speed and flow...and I think Metallica is faster and flowier than most Ritchie games. ...but I do think Metallica is hard. A shot to the standups will smack the ball back so fast and often down the drain. The left inlane/outlane metal guards just love to roll the ball right out. The grave standups are tricky as they can often send the ball right down the middle. The left side fuel lane shot is tricky to aim for. Stock settings make it very hard to collect the hurry ups and get to Seek & Destroy.

I guess you could say that but...I have found over the years that trying to determine if some of the newer Stern games were good by playing them earlier on was near impossible. I had an early TDK machine and even though some of the toys looked cool, the gameplay sucked. I did not realize how unfinished the code was and sold it. I think the later finished code made that game much better.

I, like RareHero (not sure if that was from this thread but am too lazy to search his recent quote), am growing tired of speculating on new machines when some work out and others are dogs. I have a MET Pro in my garage right now and think the toys and ramps are interesting but gameplay seems lacking but do believe code updates will help this one. I have not committed to buying it however and in its present state would not do so.

I think for people who are starting their collection or for those who have infinite room for collections and would collect almost anything, speculation on whether the code will improve a game is probably moot. But for those of us with mature collections who are deciding whether to trade a position in our line ups, this type of speculation is getting tiring and unfortunately we will just have to wait until a machine establishes itself and pay a premium price if it makes it big. This holds true for most of us more silent collectors except the aggressive buyer/seller collector who will speculate and sell if the machine is not up to their standard. I, for one, do not have the time or patience for this type of collecting but envy those that do.

Back to my point, I believe a bug does not inhibit my ability to see the gameplay and depth of a game as severly as substantial unfinished code. This difference makes it difficult for me to decide on a game early in its life and as a result I may have to pay premium mark ups to purchase some of these Stern games in the future if they work out. Just a pet peeve of mine, but for others, I understand why it may not be such a problem

Hence, why I said, and agree with you ...

When people stop buying unfinished games, Stern will stop releasing unfinished games.

Yes, I bought an unfinished game and it payed off, but I knew I was taking a risk.

People are excited about the game because of the potential. It's at best right now, average in terms of playability or depth, but the layout is decent, the toys are there ready to be fully used. The reason I think people are hyping things is because even in it's basic setup now, it's fun just maybe not mind blowing. I like this 'beta' metallica way way more than 'beta' ACDC. ACDC needed code to make it what it is today - I totally disliked it at the start. I don't have the same issue with Metallica - it's fun even without software propping it up so imagine how it will be fully fleshed out.

For the casual player, theres plenty to love, plenty of shots that feel fun and satisfying. This is where the pinheads go 'meh, I made all the shots now what'. Rewind to ACDC's release - it was unimpressive to anyone but a guy dropping a few bucks in. People were like 'wtf thats it?' Fast forward to now - 'omgwtfbbq best game evar'.

Things will change, maybe even for the worse but probably for the better. I'm excited in the potential because even if you turned all the features off, the shots are fun, fast, and rewarding. The game just needs polish.

So what if people are loud about thoroughly enjoying a pinball machine? I thought that was what this hobby was all about? I'd rather hear people enjoying a machine then all the negativity that finds it's way into almost all the threads.

Metallica has a ton going for it. The layout is great if you like an open field fan layout which I do. The stand up targets and grave-maker are a challenge and fun. Sparky and the multiball start is one of the best toys in pinball IMO. The ramps are in great spots for flow but still keeping it a challenge. The snake and hammer are pretty cool features as well IMO. I love the pin and many others that I have seen playing it seemed to be as well. I know not everyone will like the same pins but it seems like some here want people to apologize for liking a pin that they don't care for.

Well that just makes too much sense...

Seems the other option is to buy a game that takes 3 years to take Delivery. I guess I'll take my unfinished Stern & wait the few months it takes for code updates. You can go on waiting 3 years to take delivery of your "Finished & complete game".....Oh wait nevermind about that last part.

If you are referring to WOZ, you're just wrong. The amount of time Stern would take to finish some code, and the amount of time JJ took to create an entirely new platform are not the same.

Answer: It takes one... two... three*CRUNCH* pages for a thread to devolve into a WOZ argument.

tumblr_lss8vxmfH31r4wwzvo1_500.jpg

Can we compare how long it took Jack and How long it took Stern to make sam 2.0?

Yes, when we are bitching about a sam 2.0 game and how long the software is taking to come around.

I first heard of sam 2.0 in July 2011. I'm guessing it probably started a few months before that. But, at least for sam 2.0 I would assume they are able to reuse probably 90% of their code.

SAM 1.0 (100% new code) started during TSPP development (guessing late 2002) and WPT came out the start of 2006.

You know damn well Sopranos was running on sam in house first.

So now that the platform is finished I'm assuming the code is complete on WoZ for those that have taken delivery? That is what your implying correct?

I don't even understand what you are saying.

You said you'd rather buy a Stern with unfinished code and have it today than wait 3 years for delivery. I'm assuming you were referring to WOZ.

All I did was point out, that you can't compare the wait for code, to the wait for an entirely new system, hardware, boardset, company etc.

When JJ releases game #2 compare them all you want. Otherwise, it's just dumb.

Back on topic, maybe?

To the OP, sorry you weren't blown away by Metallica. I can see how if conditions aren't right that you might not be all that excited by it, but luckily my first introduction happened on several perfectly set up and clean machines.

I don't know how the game could ever be defined as slow. Everything you do puts the ball back at your flippers in fairly short order. The ramps are blazing fast. I don't know what really could hold the ball up aside from it sitting in the pops for a bit, but I'd never refer to active pops as something that slows a game down.

As for the difficulty, I think it's a real challenging game if you have a proper slope and tilt. With a tight tilt, that left outlane is a real ball hog. Multiballs take A LOT of control to maintain for any good amount of time. Combos on the left and right ramps are harder than lots of other games that let you do the same.

Sure, there's not a ton to do outside of progressing to and through the multiballs, but knowing how to trigger them at the right times and how to make the multiball as effective as possible matters a lot.

I don't think there's such thing as a game that should be universally loved, Metallica included. But if we're going to point at flaws on the game (and there are some), low speed and easy difficulty are the last two I'd bring up.

You know exactly what I'm saying. Is WoZ shipping with complete code???

Is this a woz thread? Am I in kansas?

No. Is it the same as metallica shipping with incomplete code? No.

No, it's actually worse since Jack said he wouldn't do that. Gary never made any such promise.

He made a specific comment about how people should not be buying stern games due to Incomplete code.

So it's ok for one company to ship games with incomplete code but not another. I just wanna make sure that's what you're trying to say.

Can we not turn this thread into another f**king WOZ/Stern train wreck? Go outside or something, no one cares.

played it a second time, it still sucks and the best part was a band was playing in the background so I couldn't hear the terrible callouts for most of the game. It was only terrible when they weren't playing.

He choose to bash the Stern model for releasing games with incomplete code not me. Im not thrilled with it either but im not going to bash one company and praise the other when they are basically doing the same thing. Don't like reading it? Just skim past it. Sorry if I ruined your Friday.

Are you just trolling? It has nothing to do with the company, it's the situation their in.

When a company is bringing a brand new system, hardware, software, OS, and everything else to market, they deserve a little more slack. In JJ's case, he's wore out his welcome with a lot of folks, but you cannot compare that to another company in a situation that just needs to update some code.

I'll spell it out, for the last time. Stern = just needs code. WoZ, and for WoZ only, other factors are coming into play. In my opinion, if the company that has all that going on needs some extra time for the code, and they need to release their game for whatever reason before that code is done, I think it's okay. And even if you don't, that's not the point, the point is you can't compare the two.