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I messed up somewhere (ball won't kick out)

By monsonb

8 years ago

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Latest reply 8 years ago by monsonb
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Royal Flush Gottlieb, 1976

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#1 8 years ago

BAM

Last month I discovered that the 1st Ball relay on my Royal Flush ('76) was burnt, so I replaced it. The machine played after that, but it continued to be a PITA. So I pulled up the bottom panel and discovered that three other relays were burnt: Tilt Hold, Game Over, and Hold. While waiting for my package from PR, I examined all the relays in the banks and gave them a wipe with a flexstone. Last night I replaced the relays and hoped that I might have fixed some of my problems. Nope, it only added fuel to the fire.

Now when I press the start button the machine resets fine, but it won't kick out the ball (first time this has happened). The ball just sits in the out hole and the motor endless turns as the O relay (Ball Return) clicks on and off. If I manually kick out the ball, the motor stops turning, the game begins and scores.

When I drain the ball, it's the same result as before (motor runs endlessly). Manually kicking out a ball moves the machine to ball 2 and the motor stops again. And then at the end of ball 3 the machine switches to game over when the ball drains, so I think that out hole switch is okay.

I'm assuming that the problem lies with the O relay not locking on, but I don't know what to do about it.

I have the schematic, but I struggle reading it.

Thanks in advance for any help/ advice!

#2 8 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi monsonb
great - You have a schema. I do not have a "Royal Flash pin", I do not have "Royal Flash schema". But I do have "Surf Champ pin and schema". So I write about "my / mine" - and You look at "Yours".

In my schema I have a list "Relays" -> in there "22D O-Outhole-RELAY" (,a list "Sequence Bank"), a list "Other Coils used" -> in there is: "21D Ball Return Coil" (that kicker that kicks the ball Outhole -> "Launching Lane").

I look in the schema -> 21D -> the COIL (Ball Return) has connection to the transformer (wire(s) BLACK - and on the other Lug-on-the-Coil there is a wire BROWN-RED. This wire runs to a Normally-Opened "Switch on Outhole-RELAY" -> wire ORANGE-RED -> Normally-Closed "Switch on BX-Last-Ball-Relay" -> wire YELLOW-BLACK -> Normally-Open "Switch on Score-Motor-4C" -> wire RED-WHITE -> Normally-Closed "Bounce-(Anti-C.heat)-Switch" -> fuse -> transformer.

Your "Ball Return Coil" does not fire - the brain of the pin give endlessly command(s)to the Outhole-Relay: (with help of other relays / switches / Score-Motor) "LET THE BALL RETURN COIL FIRE" (and afterwards me - the brain - will contine MY job) - endlessly, the brain waits until the ball leaves the Outhole and therefore the "Ball Return Switch" OPENS.

monsonb, look in your schema for "colours of wires". Look in Your pin: "Ball Return Coil": On one side -> 2 wires BLACK (?) soldered on ? On the other lug (Coil) 1 wire BROWN-RED (?) soldered on ?
Check the Normally-Open "Switch on Outhole-Relay" (wires BROWN-RED (?) / ORANGE-RED (?) soldered-on ? Contacts of the switch clean ? DOES THIS SWITCH CLOSE (when the Outhole-RELAY pulls) ?

Please check and report - maybe we have to look further (BX-Relay-Switch / Score-Motor-Switch / Outhole-Relay (Relay and switches) ... Greetings Rolf

#3 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Look in Your pin: "Ball Return Coil": On one side -> 2 wires BLACK (?) soldered on ? On the other lug (Coil) 1 wire BROWN-RED (?) soldered on ?
Check the Normally-Open "Switch on Outhole-Relay" (wires BROWN-RED (?) / ORANGE-RED (?) soldered-on ? Contacts of the switch clean ? DOES THIS SWITCH CLOSE (when the Outhole-RELAY pulls) ?

Thanks for the feedback, Rolf.
I checked the Ball Return Coil and the wires are solid. I also checked the normally open switches on the Outhole-Relay (Ball Return relay), and they all close when activated.

I think this is the right spot on the schematic:
Royal Flush Sch.png

#4 8 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi monsonb
Thanks for the "spot on the schematic" - > You show the "O-Outhole-RELAY" = Your "O-Relay / (Ball Return). This Relay is pulsed by "Score-Motor-Switch-1C (Score-Motor is turning, every 120 degree this switch wil be activated) -the Relay is pilsed by Score-Motor and 2 closed switches. THIS DOES WORK FINE.
Please show part of schema "Ball Return Coil" (and the switches involved). Greetings Rolf

#5 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

Okay, is this right?

Royal Flush Sch2.png

Thanks,
Brent

#6 8 years ago

GTB

DirtFlipper

Inactive member

Twin Cities, MN

12y 43,900 6,190 38

Is the BX relay latched or unlatched? If it's latched, the game will think it's the last ball and won't kick the ball back out.

#7 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

Quoted from DirtFlipper:
Is the BX relay latched or unlatched? If it's latched, the game will think it's the last ball and won't kick the ball back out.

The top part of BX isn't pulled in, so I think that means it's unlatched.

#8 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

Quoted from DirtFlipper:
Is the BX relay latched or unlatched? If it's latched, the game will think it's the last ball and won't kick the ball back out.

When the motor is running, I can observe O pull in, BX moves slightly, and then O releases. I hadn't noticed that before.
Thanks for the reply, Dirt.

#9 8 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi
I would first have a look at the Normally-Open "Switch on Outhole-Relay" - one wire (soldered-on) has colour BROWN-RED (the other wire maybe has colour SLATE-RED (?)).
It is midnight - I go to sleep, Greetings Rolf

#10 8 years ago

GTB

DirtFlipper

Inactive member

Twin Cities, MN

12y 43,900 6,190 38

From your schematic snippet, the Ball Return coil requires a switch on O, motor 4C, and BX to all be closed in order to fire. Plus the coil itself needs to be good, and there's a jones plug in the path too.

So, maybe make sure the jones plugs are all plugged in and seated. Make sure a wire didn't pop off the coil lug.

But also since O is activating, make sure the switch there is closing, didn't have a wire pop off (same for the switch at motor 4C).

Might try putting BX into the other state, just to make sure 'latched' and 'unlatched' are sorted out.

#11 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

Thanks,
This will give me something to look at tonight.
Appreciate it.

#12 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

I checked the jones plugs first, then looked for broken wires. Didn't see any problems or improvement. I had my wife help me find the brown-red wire on the O relay (I struggle with colors), and after holding a white strip of paper behind the switch, I could see that the gap might be a hair too wide. I decreased the gap, and the ball return coil worked! Worked through ten games, so I think I can call this problem fixed!

Thank you Rolf and Dirt!

#13 8 years ago

gottguy

Pinside member

9y 41,550 304 23

Thank your wife too! Keep her happy so she lets you buy more pins!

#14 8 years ago

BAM

monsonb

Inactive member

9y 46,900 414 8

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