(Topic ID: 333413)

I'm stuck trying to fix black knight

By Allingerb

1 year ago


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  • 33 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by Allingerb
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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PXL_20230403_000430670.MP (resized).jpg
swemmer.jpg
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#1 1 year ago

Hi everyone. I shorted something with the jet bumper on black Knight while adjusting it's switch under the playfield and jet bumper no longer works. I'm trying to fix but can't find the problem. I've been testing about everything I can think of and so far all I know is that this chip gets very hot very fast if I turn on the game. If you have insight as to why, I would greatly appreciate it. Installed are aftermarket swemmer boards but are supposed to be pretty much the same as original board lay out

PXL_20230319_014832566~2 (resized).jpgPXL_20230319_014832566~2 (resized).jpg
#2 1 year ago

Did you adjust the switch with game power on?
Did you see sparks? Smoke?

Is the coil firing and staying held ?

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from northvibe:

Did you adjust the switch with game power on?
Did you see sparks? Smoke?
Is the coil firing and staying held ?

I did adjust with game on. I think my pliers hit the power from another coil. The jet bumper is no longer working. No sparks or smoke but one of the coils fired when it shorted. The game was still working minus the jet, until I pulled that chip and swapped it with an identical and then discovered it's cooking. I'm so stumped.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from northvibe:

Did you adjust the switch with game power on?
Did you see sparks? Smoke?
Is the coil firing and staying held ?

Jet is not held on.

#5 1 year ago

Probably blown the transistor for the pop bumper, sorry I don’t know which one it is

#6 1 year ago

Maybe reach out to Fred Swemmer as he can probably tell you exactly how to repair the board.
[email protected]

-Mike

#7 1 year ago

Does the coil fire in test mode? I would venture to guess you ran coil voltage through the special switch section. See: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_3_-_7#Special_Solenoids

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Allingerb:

I shorted something with the jet bumper on black Knight while adjusting it's switch under the playfield and jet bumper no longer works. I'm trying to fix but can't find the problem. I've been testing about everything I can think of and so far all I know is that this chip gets very hot very fast if I turn on the game. If you have insight as to why, I would greatly appreciate it.

The heat is a pretty big clue something may be wrong with the chip. Hard to tell from the photo, but looks like a 74HCT06 or 08. You can do a quick test as per this procedure...

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_an_integrated_circuit

Very common and inexpensive to acquire.

Accidentally sending high voltage from the playfield back into the MPU is something that has happened to me. Typically logic chips on the MPU such as your 74xx are the first thing to take the hit. The chip gets fried and passes most of the current to ground. Let's hope that's all it is, and that it did not blow out any of the more expensive chips.

Quoted from Allingerb:

I think my pliers hit the power from another coil. The jet bumper is no longer working. No sparks or smoke but one of the coils fired when it shorted.

You aren't necessarily going to see sparks or smoke. Sparks and smoke require a lot of current. This happens too fast; the chip(s) get blown out before any substantial current can pass... after all, you can blow a logic chip with static, which has an extremely tiny amount of current.

Quoted from Allingerb:

The game was still working minus the jet, until I pulled that chip and swapped it with an identical and then discovered it's cooking. I'm so stumped.

Multiple chips could be involved - and if you created another fault elsewhere, you may have instantly blown out your replacement chip.

You're going to need to examine your schematic. Trace back the path from where you think you shorted it out. When I blew my switch matrix, I knocked out a 7432 along with a 7400... luckily they stopped it because the next chip was a RIOT. Looking at the schematic, it was obvious which chips were involved and which gates on those chips were blown.

#10 1 year ago

Thank you everyone for the info so far. I'm going to have to take time to check all this out and I'll get back. Thank you so very much all

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Maybe reach out to Fred Swemmer as he can probably tell you exactly how to repair the board.
[email protected]
-Mike

I did reach out to Fred and he made it clear he is a builder and not a fixer.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Allingerb:

I did reach out to Fred and he made it clear he is a builder and not a fixer.

Well that sucks.
-Mike

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Allingerb:

I did reach out to Fred and he made it clear he is a builder and not a fixer.

That's really disheartening. Does Mr. Swemmer at least provide schematics of his builds?

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

That's really disheartening. Does Mr. Swemmer at least provide schematics of his builds?

I've never seen any and have searched but never asked Fred either.
-Mike

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

I've never seen any and have searched but never asked Fred either.
-Mike

No wonder so many pinball vendors come and go.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

That's really disheartening. Does Mr. Swemmer at least provide schematics of his builds?

No schematics, I asked him. He said the boards are pretty much same as Original schematics. I need to learn to understand these better

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Allingerb:

No schematics, I asked him. He said the boards are pretty much same as Original schematics. I need to learn to understand these better

That's good to know. At least that is something.

As far as learning. Learn by doing. You can match components to the drawing to see how things are connected. Also, review PinWiki throroughtly... it will help you with the overall concepts so understanding schematics should be easier.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Allingerb:

He said the boards are pretty much same as Original schematics. I need to learn to understand these better

I guess I need to learn to match images better.

williams.jpgwilliams.jpgswemmer.jpgswemmer.jpg

I think FETs are being used as there are no 2N4401 pre-driver transistors (not necessary when using FETs).

#19 1 year ago

Well, let’s assume he used the same numbering as Williams since the parts placement looks the same. The chip you are pointing at is a 7408 AND gate chip. There are several on the driver board. Part of IC7 is the Special Switch input for Solenoid 21 and 22.

Check the switches you were adjusting and make sure they are not shorting to coil power or metal somewhere.

Try disconnecting J13 from the driver board and see if IC7 still gets hot.

If it still gets hot, turn off the power, remove IC7 and install the chip from IC6 into IC7s spot and test again. Be careful not to bend any pins removing and installing.

If the “new” chip doesn’t get hot, reinstall J12 and test if it now gets hot.

If it still is ok, test the pop bumpers.

I suspect the chips they use are 74HCT08 - pretty much the only version of this chip you can still buy new. It should be available at any well stocked electronics store. Even Amazon has them - not the best price but it is convenient.

Juried Engineering Fairchild MM74HCT08N 74HCT08N 74HCT08 - Quad 2-Input and Gate (Pack of 5) https://a.co/d/3iIGZU5

#20 1 year ago

Hold on - I just looked at the BK schematics and solenoid 21 and 22 are not used. This chip getting hot can’t be the reason the pop isn’t working. Unless the numbering is wrong on that board.

The pop is on Solenoid 19 which comes through IC6 (right below the hot chip). Maybe the numbering is swapped on that board, idk. In any event, I’d suspect IC6 or IC7 as the first things to check

Maybe try swapping the chips in IC6 and IC7 and see if the problem moves.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Hold on - I just looked at the BK schematics and solenoid 21 and 22 are not used. This chip getting hot can’t be the reason the pop isn’t working. Unless the numbering is wrong on that board.
The pop is on Solenoid 19 which comes through IC6 (right below the hot chip). Maybe the numbering is swapped on that board, idk. In any event, I’d suspect IC6 or IC7 as the first things to check
Maybe try swapping the chips in IC6 and IC7 and see if the problem moves.

I appreciate your help so very much. I'll look into this as soon as I can and report back. Thank you !!

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Well, let’s assume he used the same numbering as Williams since the parts placement looks the same. The chip you are pointing at is a 7408 AND gate chip. There are several on the driver board. Part of IC7 is the Special Switch input for Solenoid 21 and 22.
Check the switches you were adjusting and make sure they are not shorting to coil power or metal somewhere.
Try disconnecting J13 from the driver board and see if IC7 still gets hot.
If it still gets hot, turn off the power, remove IC7 and install the chip from IC6 into IC7s spot and test again. Be careful not to bend any pins removing and installing.
If the “new” chip doesn’t get hot, reinstall J12 and test if it now gets hot.
If it still is ok, test the pop bumpers.
I suspect the chips they use are 74HCT08 - pretty much the only version of this chip you can still buy new. It should be available at any well stocked electronics store. Even Amazon has them - not the best price but it is convenient.
Juried Engineering Fairchild MM74HCT08N 74HCT08N 74HCT08 - Quad 2-Input and Gate (Pack of 5) https://a.co/d/3iIGZU5

Thank you again for your help. I replaced both t08n chips, checked the switch for grounding, unplugged j13 and still the chip is very hot if I turn on the machine. Infact ic6 and ic7 to8n chips are roasting.

#23 1 year ago

You must have a short up or down stream from those chips

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from joetechbob:

You must have a short up or down stream from those chips

It's gotta be in the boards though correct? I unplugged j13 and it still got hot.

#25 1 year ago

IC6 and IC7 feed into IC8 and IC9 (which are different chips so don't mix them up). You can try removing IC8 and IC9 and see if IC6 and IC7 still get hot.

Also, when you say hot, how hot are they getting? Can you keep your finger on them?

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

IC6 and IC7 feed into IC8 and IC9 (which are different chips so don't mix them up). You can try removing IC8 and IC9 and see if IC6 and IC7 still get hot.
Also, when you say hot, how hot are they getting? Can you keep your finger on them?

I'm sorry for delay. I'm looking into this again today. The chips get too hot to touch for sure.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

IC6 and IC7 feed into IC8 and IC9 (which are different chips so don't mix them up). You can try removing IC8 and IC9 and see if IC6 and IC7 still get hot.
Also, when you say hot, how hot are they getting? Can you keep your finger on them?

I've removed ic8 and ic9. 6 and 7 are still get hot. Also 2j11-2j13 are unplugged from the board.

PXL_20230403_000430670.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20230403_000430670.MP (resized).jpg
#28 1 year ago

I'd get out the multimeter and pull one of the ics that is getting hot, and see which of the pins show low/no resistance relative to ground. Then follow that downstream/upstream and check against data sheet for that ic, etc. (Note that at least one pin on ic that is running hot will show as ground -- check against data sheet on ic that's getting hot to see which pin(s) are expected to be connected to ground.)

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from joetechbob:

I'd get out the multimeter and pull one of the ics that is getting hot, and see which of the pins show low/no resistance relative to ground. Then follow that downstream/upstream and check against data sheet for that ic, etc. (Note that at least one pin on ic that is running hot will show as ground -- check against data sheet on ic that's getting hot to see which pin(s) are expected to be connected to ground.)

Looking at data sheet and I'm just not seeing or understanding unfortunately. Thank you for the advice though.

#30 1 year ago

Black knight is playing again. Chips were hot because I put them in upsidedown and that also caused a fuse to blow. Proof I'm a total numbskull. I appreciate everyone's input so very much!!!

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from Allingerb:

Black knight is playing again. Chips were hot because I put them in upsidedown and that also caused a fuse to blow. Proof I'm a total numbskull. I appreciate everyone's input so very much!!!

Congratulations on figuring that out! I never noticed their orientation is reversed. They are that way on the original boards too

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Chips were hot because I put them in upsidedown

Did those chips still work afterwards?

1 month later
#33 10 months ago

<

Quoted from KenH:

Did those chips still work afterwards?

I'm sorry for the late reply. Yes the chips still worked. I got the machine working well. Received the Kohout boards I had ordered when I gave up for a bit, sold the swemmer boards to a friend having issues with his Black Knight, then a 6821 CPU chip went out in my new Kohout boards which they fixed for me. Now back together again and working great and my friends machine is also working great. Cheers

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