What Medieval Madness would you keep?

(Topic ID: 232527)

What Medieval Madness would you keep?


By Damien

24 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 99 posts
  • 49 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 days ago by ctviss
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic poll

“What Medieval Madness would you keep?”

  • Original 92 votes
    55%
  • Remake 75 votes
    45%

(167 votes)

There are 99 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 22 days ago

This reminds me of the people on my DJ forums that argue about sound quality of files, arguing about FLAC vs 320 vs 128... meanwhile they play their MP3s through garbage PA systems that squeal like a pig.

#firstWorldProblems

I bought Cyclone as my first pin *because* of sentimental value, so all the work I've put into that machine is staying in my house until I absolutely have to sell it. My worthless opinion: if you're a sentimental fella like me, keep the LE.

#52 22 days ago
Quoted from ctviss:

Pinside puts the value of both at nearly the same. I say keep the original and sell the remake while you can still get the most money for it... originals will never be produced again but remakes will, at least for the foreseeable future, and there is a certain charm to owning a piece of history.
If you're a purist it's not even a question. In every hobby there are purists who will only buy/own originals. It's why people fully restore classic cars and spend countless hours searching for original stock parts. As a collector, there is no alternative.
But if you're just in the hobby to have the most fun possible, the remake brings a lot to the table.

Great post! I think if my original had a mint NOS playfield in it, the decision would be much easier.

I'm not crazy about the quality of Mirco playfields, and from many Dialed In games I've seen I also don't trust them for durability.

But if I decided to keep the original I would always have the option to one day switch over to an NOS.

I went over the machine with a fine eye last night and noticed some minor imperfections. Just little things like a couple of nicks in the cabinet decal, and some bush league black paint touch ups around the head trim. I don't see these necessarily being a deal-breaker but it definitely is not as mint as my remake.

Also one thing I noticed and I'm not sure if it is on all originals or just my restored one, but the walls at the inside of the cabinet show the grainy lines of wood under the paint where the remake is just a smooth black piece of laminate or something.

I don't have any other B/W here now to compare, but were the inside walls a different material between the original and remake and was it normal to see the wood lines in the black paint?

#53 22 days ago
Quoted from Damien:

I don't have any other B/W here now to compare, but were the inside walls a different material between the original and remake and was it normal to see the wood lines in the black paint?

Yes. The remakes have laminated sides and B/W have painted plywood. Speaking of plywood, the remakes have plywood bottoms and on the originals it's press board.

#54 22 days ago
Quoted from Only_Pinball:

Yes. The remakes have laminated sides and B/W have painted plywood. Speaking of plywood, the remakes have plywood bottoms and on the originals it's press board.

What bottom is strongest?

#55 22 days ago
Quoted from Damien:

What bottom is strongest?

The plywood bottom that CGC uses is far, far stronger than pressboard.

It looks like 1/2" with 9 equal plys, I believe it's Baltic Birch... stuff that professional cabinet shops would use, not the stuff you'd find at big box stores.

Looks like there's a layer of pressboard in there too, you can see it for the speaker and switch cutouts.

Edit: just checked my cab, the sides are veneered with melamine laminate. You can see the grain on both my newer Sterns. Not nearly as much grain on my Cyclone... I refinished that cabinet (and actually replaced one side's veneer with walnut!)

#56 21 days ago

You have a MMLE? Nobrainer keep the MMLE.

#57 21 days ago
Quoted from TheRookie:

You have a MMLE? Nobrainer keep the MMLE.

The LE doesnt really add anything. That's coming from an MMrLE owner.

#58 21 days ago

I would probably just keep the game you already have. But the fact that you are flirting with the idea of the restored original kinda shows where your heart lies. If you aren't 100% with the remake then I say chase after what you are looking for.

#59 21 days ago
Quoted from vwallat99:

I would probably just keep the game you already have. But the fact that you are flirting with the idea of the restored original kinda shows where your heart lies. If you aren't 100% with the remake then I say chase after what you are looking for.

It's complicated... I have both

#60 21 days ago

Keep them both.

#61 21 days ago

If both games play the similar and you do not have a preference you can put your finger on at this point, I would put them both up for sale and see which gets the best price/sales action. I would sell the higher value and take the money to another game/option. Some times we can over think these things.

#62 21 days ago

Between MMR and MM with a Mirco playfield, I’d keep the MMR as that means your machine has seen a lot of use. Your MMR playfield is more “original” than your Mirco, literally created with the same silkscreen process in the same factory in Chicago as the MM. Then I’d keep my eyes open for a high quality MM if having the original is important to you.

#63 21 days ago

If you can, why not keep both?

#64 21 days ago
Quoted from krivoap:

If you can, why not keep both?

I wish I had room for doubles of games!

#65 21 days ago

I’ve stated this in other threads, but it’s worth repeating: many MMR’s shipped with the wrong flipper coil plungers. They were 1/8 in. too long. This causes the flipper to not reach the correct end position, and can make it feel weak or weird. Install the right plunger, and it feels a ton better.

Aside from that, there is a slight difference in feel between the B/W games and CGC games. Not going to get into “why”, cuz everyone has a theory - but it is slightly different. It never bothered me on MMr cuz I never owned an original, but I have owned MB for about 7 years & when I played MBr, I could really notice the difference. That, along with my strong dislike of the colorbomb lightshow caused me to cancel my MBrLE order and just stick with my original.

I think the remakes are great for what they are - a way to get a nice machine without overpaying for a used one....but if I had both, I’d probably veer toward keeping the original.

#66 21 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

not even close TBT.
IMO it has to do with the strength and composition of the original materials. Metals were made harder, the wood is harder, etc... This is a physical machine where we are translating a electromagnetic pulse through wire wound coils that transfer energy through those original more durable parts and pf to smack that ball around.
The remake is an emulation in all regards and plays quite a bit different. Between the emulated software, softer metals, and softer wood, the physical game just is not the same. Play a nice restored original and a remake that have been tuned in by the same tech and do it side by side. Everyone will see and fee the difference.

to say it pays quite a bit different is ridiculous...I had a restored MM and a MMRLE right next to each other for months. Both setup exactly the same, and they play the SAME...the reality is every machine plays a little different

#67 21 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

to say it pays quite a bit different is ridiculous...I had a restored MM and a MMRLE right next to each other for months. Both setup exactly the same, and they play the SAME...the reality is every machine plays a little different

This is correct.

#68 21 days ago
Quoted from dts:

This is correct.

Disagree.

-1
#69 21 days ago

I'd take MMR over a Mirco MM anyday.

#70 21 days ago
Quoted from dts:

How many MMs have you owned?

Zero. I have friends with each version, and ya don't have to own one to have played each quite a bit and felt the difference.

#71 21 days ago

Not intended to be snarky, was curious if you have played them on location, as it increases variability. It is fine to disagree here. I'd probably take an original in amazing shape over the remake from a collector's point of view, but not one that has been played to the point the playfield has to be replaced. MBR, on the other hand, is looking really impressive, and I might take the remake over the original. I owned an AFMR LE and liked it but it wasn't as fun to me as the original that I used to own. So this is why I agree with PtownPin above on variability.

#72 21 days ago

In my opinion, I'd prefer a NOS original pf over both the Mirco and the new CGC. The CGC coat chips way to easily, and also makes games much faster than originally designed. Mirco pfs scare me. I've seen way some pretty concerning wear on new games.

I like the shaker on MMR, but I assume I can get a pretty close effect with a shaker on MM.

Screen isn't really a big deal to me. I think those laptop monitors in MMR will cause more problems than proven DMD screens.

#73 21 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

to say it pays quite a bit different is ridiculous...I had a restored MM and a MMRLE right next to each other for months. Both setup exactly the same, and they play the SAME...the reality is every machine plays a little different

Seems many people that own a remake are very defensive over this. The reality is that the majority of people that have played both, select the original as much better playing.

Interesting to me is that afm remakes are improved and MBr even more. Whatever the issue was with MMr, they seem to have figured something out.

#74 21 days ago

No dog in this fight but they definitely don’t play/feel the same. Not arguing which feel is better but i definitely prefer the original

#75 21 days ago

Sounds like I need to get another MM...

#76 20 days ago

I think it is hard to compare and make a decision based on the choices.
On one hand you have a MMR
On the other you have what sounds like possibly an amateur Mirco playfield swap.
There is a lot involved in not just swapping a playfield but properly doing it where you walk away with a good playing game.
I have used and installed many original as well as IPB and Mirco MM playfields without issue but there are definitely things you have to be on the lookout for during the build.
Your game might simply need some adjustments and dialing in.
This thread does address some of that.
Flipper alignment,ball guide alignment,verifying dimple accuracy and making adjustments are all a part of good gameplay. If not done it can give a bad impression.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-presents-a-tale-of-two-medieval-madnesses

#77 20 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

I think it is hard to compare and make a decision based on the choices.
On one hand you have a MMR
On the other you have what sounds like possibly an amateur Mirco playfield swap.
There is a lot involved in not just swapping a playfield but properly doing it where you walk away with a good playing game.
I have used and installed many original as well as IPB and Mirco MM playfields without issue but there are definitely things you have to be on the lookout for during the build.
Your game might simply need some adjustments and dialing in.
This thread does address some of that.
Flipper alignment,ball guide alignment,verifying dimple accuracy and making adjustments are all a part of good gameplay. If not done it can give a bad impression.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-presents-a-tale-of-two-medieval-madnesses

First off, I respect the work you do greatly!

Not sure why you say it's an "amateur" job, as the game looks pretty good, and plays great. I think I enjoy how this one plays over MMR, because IMO (everyone is entitled to one) I thirty plays more like other B/W games I've been on or owned.

Not everyone agrees that it plays/feels differently than a remake, and even those who do, only have their own individual theories as to why.

I've only been in this hobby a couple of years, but to me, there is a noticeable difference in the way they play, and I have both side-by-side right now to compare. a lot of people here have owned both games but at different times which makes it very hard to do a fair comparison. I'm playing them pretty much in tandem.

One thing I wondered is if the game feel different due to materials, especially wood. If the remakes use laminate, and the originals used wood, then I'd imagine one should feel heavier and sturdier. Maybe that would also affect the play, since a machine is option nudges and interacted with on a physical level.

Again, I'm not sure what game I prefer more, but there is without a doubt in my mind, that these games do not play the same (and not the usual game to game variation of play).

#78 20 days ago
Quoted from Damien:

First off, I respect the work you do greatly!
Not sure why you say it's an "amateur" job, as the game looks pretty good, and plays great. I think I enjoy how this one plays over MMR, because IMO (everyone is entitled to one) I thirty plays more like other B/W games I've been on or owned.
Not everyone agrees that it plays/feels differently than a remake, and even those who do, only have their own individual theories as to why.
I've only been in this hobby a couple of years, but to me, there is a noticeable difference in the way they play, and I have both side-by-side right now to compare. a lot of people here have owned both games but at different times which makes it very hard to do a fair comparison. I'm playing them pretty much in tandem.
One thing I wondered is if the game feel different due to materials, especially wood. If the remakes use laminate, and the originals used wood, then I'd imagine one should feel heavier and sturdier. Maybe that would also affect the play, since a machine is option nudges and interacted with on a physical level.
Again, I'm not sure what game I prefer more, but there is without a doubt in my mind, that these games do not play the same (and not the usual game to game variation of play).

I might have missed something in the thread but I got the impression that you felt the Mirco playfield was lesser in some way to the original in terms of game play That prompts me to say *possibly* an amateur install was done because you might be equating some flow characteristics or just a lack of a well dialed in game and a lack of attention to detail during the reassembly to a fault in the playfield itself.
I would have to see and play for myself to form a real opinion.
Without a doubt I also believe that all three games will play somewhat differently for better or worse.
Those three being
Original MM with shots well worn into the playfield from years of use

Freshly installed Mirco with no shots worn into the playfield yet but still utilizing the original platform.

MMR with the same issue as the Mirco but also many other anomalies due to the fact every part is a copy or reinterpretation of the original.

#79 20 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Seems many people that own a remake are very defensive over this. The reality is that the majority of people that have played both, select the original as much better playing.
Interesting to me is that afm remakes are improved and MBr even more. Whatever the issue was with MMr, they seem to have figured something out.

i've owned both so not defensive at all. My comments were based on my own reality...the two games sat next to each other for 6 months. MMRLE was new, and the MM was completely restored with LED's and color dmd. Both games were dialed in and the play field set at the same angle. After 100's of games not one person who played the games could tell the difference between the two....the only thing I agree with is that all games play a little different from each other. To say one plays better than the other is ridiculous .....they both play well

#80 20 days ago

Also my experience. But I’d be happy to swap for a HEP restored MM, those are amazing.

-1
#81 20 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

i've owned both so not defensive at all. My comments were based on my own reality...the two games sat next to each other for 6 months. MMRLE was new, and the MM was completely restored with LED's and color dmd. Both games were dialed in and the play field set at the same angle. After 100's of games not one person who played the games could tell the difference between the two....the only thing I agree with is that all games play a little different from each other. To say one plays better than the other is ridiculous .....they both play well

That is cool. I was just pointing out you are in the minority of that opinion. You are completely right to that opinion. Just that most people notice a clear difference and favor the original.

#82 20 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

I might have missed something in the thread but I got the impression that you felt the Mirco playfield was lesser in some way to the original in terms of game play That prompts me to say *possibly* an amateur install

I got the impression he was saying that if it had a NOS playfield in it, it would’ve played better.

#83 20 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I got the impression he was saying that if it had a NOS playfield in it, it would’ve played better.

Not sure better is what I meant. More that it would play as originally designed. I'm a bit OCD about that.

The Mirco of I have lots great, and as I said in many posts in this thread the game deals and plays like a true B/W.

I just don't know if I trust the longevity of the playfield, but I'm Soley basing that on a few Dialed In games I've seen in person.

I think with EPA changes, you just can't make pfs like they used to. You can get them restored so they look like art pieces but I think on some level that changes the way a game plays.

#84 20 days ago
Quoted from Damien:

Not sure better is what I meant. More that it would play as originally designed. I'm a bit OCD about that.
The Mirco of I have lots great, and as I said in many posts in this thread the game deals and plays like a true B/W.
I just don't know if I trust the longevity of the playfield, but I'm Soley basing that on a few Dialed In games I've seen in person.
I think with EPA changes, you just can't make pfs like they used to. You can get them restored so they look like art pieces but I think on some level that changes the way a game plays.

Games are handmade no matter what company you’re talking about. The minute differences during installation of parts, etc, all add up.

I think the only fact that we can all agree on is how lucky you are to have such a problem

Remember when you couldn’t get a MM? And now you have two!

#85 20 days ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Games are handmade no matter what company you’re talking about. The minute differences during installation of parts, etc, all add up.
I think the only fact that we can all agree on is how lucky you are to have such a problem
Remember when you couldn’t get a MM? And now you have two!

I agree with you completely and totally. We all are very fortunate to be in a position where we can afford to enjoy these machines. I know for me personally, it wasn't always like this!

I had a wire snap off of one of the switches on MM, so I decided to play a couple quick games of MMR tonight. Such a good game!

#86 20 days ago

Shit! I’d keep both and buy a LE MBr too. Money is no concern.

1 week later
#87 10 days ago

A little update... I'm now leaning towards sticking with the remake.

And this is why... I think the remake is more fun to play because of the shaker integration and the great dots.

But the original plays better. I know there are a lot of people that disagree with this, but having the games side by side, the argument is settled for me.

They feel different too. Take you knuckles and knock on the side of a remake cabinet. It's hollow a d cheap feeling. But then take a knock at a B/W cabinet, and feel and hear that difference.

Shit... I think I just talked myself out of it again! Haha

#88 10 days ago
Quoted from Damien:

A little update... I'm now leaning towards sticking with the remake.
And this is why... I think the remake is more fun to play because of the shaker integration and the great dots.
But the original plays better. I know there are a lot of people that disagree with this, but having the games side by side, the argument is settled for me.
They feel different too. Take you knuckles and knock on the side of a remake cabinet. It's hollow a d cheap feeling. But then take a knock at a B/W cabinet, and feel and hear that difference.
Shit... I think I just talked myself out of it again! Haha

if you think the original plays better why the hell would you even consider keeping the remake? You literally are going to choose style over substance. wtf?

#89 10 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

if you think the original plays better why the hell would you even consider keeping the remake? You literally are going to choose style over substance. wtf?

Yes, and you can install a shaker in an original, making the larger display the only plus for the refake.

#90 10 days ago
Quoted from yzfguy:

Yes, and you can install a shaker in an original, making the larger display the only plus for the refake.

i get that, but if the original plays better in his mind why would he even consider the worse playing one? the point is to play, not to stare at them.

#91 10 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

i get that, but if the original plays better in his mind why would he even consider the worse playing one? the point is to play, not to stare at them.

Yep, I was agreeing with ya.

#92 10 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

i get that, but if the original plays better in his mind why would he even consider the worse playing one? the point is to play, not to stare at them.

I'd argue the point is to enjoy. And being a family/friend shared machine, it's the one more people seem to enjoy.

I think the casual player will find the remake more exciting. I think for anyone that is serious about pinball the original is the way to go.

I'm still undecided but they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I hear the shaker on the remake does more than the original. Can anyone comment on that?

#93 10 days ago

You should just save yourself the trouble and keep both. You know you want to (and are going to)... just admit it.

Or... make a FrankenMM. Combine both into a one-of-a-kind machine.

#94 10 days ago

Having played both, they play the same, but saying that every machine plays differently. Have had and known other collectors who have owned multiple of a particular title and regardless of which was in better condition on occasion one machine would play *better*. Some feel clunkier, some you can get away with particular shots while others will drain, its just slight differences in construction.

That said, I would want a remake for the display. Pinsound is nice, but WPC95 sound quality does not feel lacking to me, if it were TZ with pre-dcs that would be a different story.

Repair on both is mixed. Beaglebone boards are easy and cheap to get. WPC95 parts are increasingly becoming obsolete so in 10 years, repairing one may not be an option. After market should continue to exist, but you may run into an issue like with the A/V board where no one makes it for years on end (rottendog's is supposed to be coming back out soon). To say that the original is easier to repair does not take into account that the parts situation will continue to get worse due to it being very antiquated.

As for the original being an *original* it is more like the ship of theseus. Unless you get an huo or nib example, any restored example is not really original and frankly you are paying more for what increasingly amounts to the same thing. The main difference being the hardware driving it.

#95 10 days ago

This should have been the first response.

No two games really play the same, keep what plays better and gives you more enjoyment - no one is getting any younger.

Quoted from dung:

Having played both, they play the same, but saying that every machine plays differently. Have had and known other collectors who have owned multiple of a particular title and regardless of which was in better condition on occasion one machine would play *better*. Some feel clunkier, some you can get away with particular shots while others will drain, its just slight differences in construction.
That said, I would want a remake for the display. Pinsound is nice, but WPC95 sound quality does not feel lacking to me, if it were TZ with pre-dcs that would be a different story.
Repair on both is mixed. Beaglebone boards are easy and cheap to get. WPC95 parts are increasingly becoming obsolete so in 10 years, repairing one may not be an option. After market should continue to exist, but you may run into an issue like with the A/V board where no one makes it for years on end (rottendog's is supposed to be coming back out soon). To say that the original is easier to repair does not take into account that the parts situation will continue to get worse due to it being very antiquated.
As for the original being an *original* it is more like the ship of theseus. Unless you get an huo or nib example, any restored example is not really original and frankly you are paying more for what increasingly amounts to the same thing. The main difference being the hardware driving it.

#96 10 days ago
Quoted from dung:

Having played both, they play the same, but saying that every machine plays differently. Have had and known other collectors who have owned multiple of a particular title and regardless of which was in better condition on occasion one machine would play *better*. Some feel clunkier, some you can get away with particular shots while others will drain, its just slight differences in construction.
That said, I would want a remake for the display. Pinsound is nice, but WPC95 sound quality does not feel lacking to me, if it were TZ with pre-dcs that would be a different story.
Repair on both is mixed. Beaglebone boards are easy and cheap to get. WPC95 parts are increasingly becoming obsolete so in 10 years, repairing one may not be an option. After market should continue to exist, but you may run into an issue like with the A/V board where no one makes it for years on end (rottendog's is supposed to be coming back out soon). To say that the original is easier to repair does not take into account that the parts situation will continue to get worse due to it being very antiquated.
As for the original being an *original* it is more like the ship of theseus. Unless you get an huo or nib example, any restored example is not really original and frankly you are paying more for what increasingly amounts to the same thing. The main difference being the hardware driving it.

That hardware is a big part of the feel, its the only real interaction with the game.

#97 9 days ago

Sell them both.

Half kidding. It's a decent game, but much better games out there. Since I beat it, I rarely play it.

#98 6 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Sell them both.
Half kidding. It's a decent game, but much better games out there. Since I beat it, I rarely play it.

Just beat the original for the first time, and I think I've finished my remake about 5 times. Still not tired of it at all! To me, it's the complete game. I love the humor, the sounds, the 90s campy feel, and of course the game play.

I think I'm going to make a decision about which one to sell sooner than I had planned, as I'm now considering a Batman 66 Premium.

Hmmmmmm... Decisions, decisions...

#99 5 days ago

Give them both a battleaxe and make them fight to the death.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 16.95
7,600
Machine - For Sale
Lititz, PA
€ 95.00
Lighting - Led
FlipperLED
$ 50.00
Lighting - Led
Rock Custom Pinball
€ 8.10
Flipper Parts
Buthamburg
From: $ 369.95
Boards
PinSound
$ 129.00
Lighting - Led
LED OCD
$ 11.95
$ 128.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
$ 36.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
$ 2,000.00
Pinball Machine
Great American Pinball
€ 3.70
$ 25.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
$ 40.00
Lighting - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 98.00
Playfield - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 8.50
Lighting - Led
Bright Lights Pinball
8,295 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
Denver, CO
From: $ 22.00
$ 15.00
$ 55.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 999.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
There are 99 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside