Ok, so Sterns are cheap and JJP builds quality... has this been discussed before?

and Sterns you wait weeks for after announced and JJP's you wait years

And you can see the PFs on new Sterns .

Correct, I guess we learn something new everyday!

and a beautiful backglass... ok, I'm outta here!

If I'm going to be spending $7.5k-$8k on a pin it will only be for a JJP LE game moving forward until Stern starts packing in more toys, LCD, topper, invisi / PDI glass, shaker, different cabinet artwork for each side, etc into their LE's. Until then I rather wait the year to get a Hobbit LE with as much as these game cost. If Stern is going to continue raising their prices they need to show customers why in terms of more features, better cabinets, and toys in their games. I do think (when at first I didn't) that Star Trek looks really cool but its the price of the LE that has made me back away from it. If money was no object I would buy them all as I'm sure everyone of us would, haha.

Those 7-ply pf's? Which will probably be down to 5 plies soon? c'mon. And the display where you can count the individual monochrome dots, and player scores disappear when an 'animation' is shown? But a piece of glass/plastic with actors' faces photoshopped on it is better than a hi-res full-color video display to you? Different strokes...

Any truth to the rumor that JJP is making a LE "Out of Order" sign, since that's the one feature in WOZ that gets used the most?

Ah, the renowned JJP basher rises from the dust! Your credibility is zilcho here, but at least try to be mildly amusing. This post failed.

Dear OP:
please stir the pot more. No reason whatsoever to start yet another Stern vs JJP thread.
While it sounds as though we'd all prefer the older crank style backbox system, does this really matter? How often are you folding/moving the pin anyway?

To the rest of you bashing either pin: What are you doing? Why bother pissing off another pin owner?

My first reaction was to blast StevenP for yet another "I hate Stern" thread but clearly he's just reacting to some of the negativity that's been stated against WOZ already.

Grow up!

What was the real point of this post?

And you wait maybe as long on both for completed software.

Almost forgot... In before the lock!

Good thing ST Pro can be had for $4600 then.

I'll be curious if the back box lock is on the Pro only, just like the pegs.

Then we get to hear how much better the JJP system is on their $4600 model :/.

old bally/williams might be built like a tank, but I'd rather own/play a newer stern anyday. might be cheap, but they play a hell of a lot better than the old clunkers.

Here we go; another ST PRO vs wozle thread where the ST pro is treated as an $8k game

Let us know how the weekly drops are measuring up. $$$ What kind of money is the WOZ making? How is MET earning??

Can't we just all get along!

So who is going to make the Calvin and Hobbs pinball window decal of pissing on a Stern or JJP logo?

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If that's what you like.thats cool. But it looks like you’re in the minority; check the top 10 games,

This is my point on another thread I got crucified for saying ST LE looks similar cost of materials as for example Tron LE or even some of the pro machines. I mean no special glass or display or toys, I mean the Enterprise looks like it came from a Happy meal could not cost more than $6 for that toy. Wood, wires, stock pinball parts all don't come near showing me $7800 for a LE.

It does look nice to me, but LE is certainly over priced, the pro seems more ok priced, still $3000 less than a JJP game after all. But the LE is near the same price as a JJP game so I would not expect it to have all stock off the shelf parts you would find in any other Stern game, the parts have not gone up in price but Stern seems to think it can charge whatever they want.

I would not go so far as to call it 'the pin' but it defiantly seems just like standard off the shelf components.

I hate pinball. I hate all of you. I hate oxygen. Have a nice day.

Here we go....print away. Should be able to sell 10k of these in Pinside alone

jjp_p.jpg stern_p.jpg

Lets get predictions on how it earns when compared to the rest of the modern line up at Bene's place. That is the most important thing since these machines are made to earn money, not sit in basements.

Bene, any earnings reports for September for the hot games in your lineup?

i don't buy games based on ratings

You call 8 grand cheap?

I hope someday Stern and JJP can exist together in a healthy competition for the betterment of the pinball community... Us the end users will be the winners in the end.

Or wieners in our ends.

Didn't realize they got rid of the hex-latch for the backbox - I always thought that was an outstanding feature. . .

I know exactly where you are coming from. You're not trying to 'stir the pot', just talking about pinball. I guess it's been a long time since we've been able to talk about competing products in the pinball arena and maybe it's uncomfortable from some to discuss (ie democrats vs republicans, Chevy vs Ford, Atari vs Intellivision vs Colecovision), but the discussion and comparison between Stern and JJP should not and probably cannot be ignored.

Bene said, "With a build quality that seems too good to make a profit" -- this idea pops into my head regularly. If Stern needs to charge $7K to $8K to remain viable, how on earth could JJP possibly sell WOZ for $7K and survive? On the flip side, if JJP can sell WOZ for $7K and produce enough income to remain a going concern, why does Stern continue to raise the price and reduce the bill-of-material?

I really want a STLE - I love the theme. The problem for me is that I have a WOZ that was $7K and it is a much more robust machine that any machine Stern has produced, but *especially* from recent years. Since WOZ is available for $7K, it's apparent that a Stern should be much less, at least while JJP is producing machines. I say 'at least while JJP is producing' because it may be that a $7K JJP machine is not a viable business model, JJP goes away, and Stern continues selling $7K-$8K machines. It could be that JJP, out of necessity, ups their price to $10K and/or reduces quality to maintain $7K-$8K.

When Stern was the only maker, for me, price wasn't a significant part of the equation in the buy-no buy decision process. There were no other NIB machines to compare. I would just buy the game at the best price I could find if it was one I wanted. Now, with a WOZ in my gameroom and the knowledge of how nice a machine it is for $7K and the consistent cost-cutting measures combined with price increases that Stern is offering, I've decided that STLE and ST-Pre at their respective price-points do not provide the value I expect to pull the trigger. If WOZ/JJP didn't exist, I'd be the first to buy the STLE/Pre.

Stern seems to be behaving as if JJP doesn't exist. Eventually they are going to have to react.

I'm thankful to have had at least one maker since WMS closed shop. I love all my Stern machines. I'm excited about ST (and bought a Pro) and am excited that we have a 'Ford' and a 'Mercedes' both making machines, but I'm not going to buy the 'Lincoln' just because it's a dressed-up 'Ford' when I can buy the 'Mercedes' for the same money.

This thread needs more attractive scantily clad pictures to calm everyone down.

Better metal than partial board.

Post some pics of the new design. thanks

True but at least I can afford to buy EVERY JJP game that comes out IF I want to. I cant do that with Stern putting out 3-4 of their cookie cutter pieces of shit a year.

I'm sure that's still there. I think he's talking about the speaker panel. A metal backbox? Would never happen.

Now this is funny

The only Sterns that don't feel like clunkers are made by the old Bally/Williams designers

Lol great job!

No the hex latch is gone. The backbox looks to be plywood on the four sides and metal on the back where it used to be particle board.

OP I couldn't disagree with you more on that. I've loved many of their recent releases and don't prefer multiple playfields or toys all over the place covering the layout. I respect your opinion though hope your able to find some new pins you do love to play.

All this talk of build quality gives me a chuckle as all new machines have been shown to have issues. I care more about the playfield design then what holds up the back box. For me the speed and layout of many of Stern releases has been flat out fun to play. They also designed the new cabinet protectors that seem to be working great. For me all this nitpicking is a bit over the top. I think offering a pro model well below $5K is important to the hobby. I did like the hex lock system wish they kept it but not a huge deal to me. I guess we all have our preferences.

It happened.

Damn. So how does it stay latched?

old bally/williams might be built like a tank, but I'd rather own/play a newer stern anyday. might be cheap, but they play a hell of a lot better than the old clunkers.

Obviously you haven't played any that have been rebuilt.

I'm sure that's still there. I think he's talking about the speaker panel. A metal backbox? Would never happen.

No, he is talking about the coffin lock that has been stripped out in favor of two screws.

latch2.jpg

I would like JJP to build Stern games but even though it annoys the heck out of me that Stern keep cheapening the cabinet, some of their recent releases are a blast to play - especially ACDC and Metallica.

I don't think people's issues have been with the pro model. I agree that its good that there's a company out there making pro machines like ST in the sub $5k range. Star Trek pro does look really cool and that would be the model I would buy if I got a ST. However, a Stern LE at close to $8k ends up getting compared to WOZLE or THLE and at that price many wonder how Stern justifies that price with toys, features, build quality, etc. If they are going to charge JJP LE prices then at least give us a topper, shaker, some type of PDI or invisiglass, unique side art on both sides, a high quality powder coat job and the standard cabinet head with latch lock that a lot people prefer to help justify the price.

Laaaaaaame.

WTF?? Is that seriously the back of their new pins?? 2 rinky-dink screws?!?!?!

I would LOVE to know the actual reasoning behind this from Stern because so help me god if it's to shave a $2.83 mech off each machine and not some technical/aesthetic reason I'm gonna go ape shit.

Can you please chime in to each thread restating the same things again & again? We can split the duties, I'll take the first 30 on the front page, you take the other 30

The Stern coffin lock works great when it's new. I've dealt with some Sterns just 4 to 5 years old where the coffin lock was already needing to be replaced. Maybe they thought it was more serviceable with just two standard bolts holding it on? It's certainly safer in that you can readily tell if the head is locked down if you see the bolts in place.