...AND, might I add, I’ve certainly been refused things here and in the hobby for my mouth, over the years. I live with it. C’est la vie. But having a hot sports opinion and demanding specific rules to placate your desire to have cake and eat it too? Not the same thing.

So, getting back to the main idea of the original post. Personally I have really enjoyed my last 4 years on Pinside. I am VERY political, and won't say which side. Everywhere, but Pinside. So much so, that in order to avoid losing a couple of friends, changed my Facebook setting to where no one but me can see my posts. Which keeps me from posting.

But here on Pinside I have found a community of people with a shared passion. I know from hints here and there that some of the people I like most on this site are probably on the far far side of me politically. And the great thing is, here, I don't give a rats. Pinball is a great hobby, that I found far too late in life (actually re-found, if that's a word) and as my wife says, has become my true addiction.

And Pinside, is this great window into the Pin world where I have found numerous people to help me learn the tech side (em's), where I can catch my breath from all the important BS in the world going on right now - both generally and personally, by focusing on something fun but really in the long run completely unimportant to the world at large. Pinside is a great place to research games that I find and might be interested in buying. And where I can read the interesting and fun posts from some of my favorite Pinsiders.

So thank you Robin and everyone working to keep this site great.

Although I don't always agree with pinside and some members I owe the fact that I have pins to this site. I bought and fixed my first pin on the promise of help on this site and they did just that and I've learned a hell of a lot. Pinside has lost a lot of good people but it also has many more good people join each and everyday.

I simply don't agree with that, that's all.

I think deplatforming assholes is a good thing. If you say "pinball is for rich white men, and it should stay that way" (which someone really said recently) then I don't want to do business with you. I don't want your money, and I don't want you to have my product. Buy it off the used market or something, I can't control that, but yeah, I'm discriminating against your dumb bigoted comment.

There should be consequences for saying something that stupid. They made the choice to type that, they weren't born that way. In short, f— them, and I'll hold my right to not do business with them. I blocked them and I'm losing no sleep over it.

You can of course disagree with me, and that's fine. You ever want a Shadow translite let me know, because I'd not hold your differed opinion against you. Your principles might not match mine, but I'm not offended by it, you're not attacking anyone or being a racist. Maybe you truly don't draw any lines, and will just shake hands with anyone. I don't roll like that.

Yes, pinside is a great place to waste time reading the same arguments and opinions by the same people over and over again when there's nothing better to do.

It's been my go to website for all of that for over 7 years now.

Life is what you make of it.

So choose. Choose well. Contribute without expectation on reciprocation and love your fellow pinball player.

Take responsibility for what you take in and put out. I will admit that I have been draining lots of posts and members as of late, but that still is a choice.

Of all my years playing pinball I have never once met a pinball player that I would describe as "mean". Ever. That's a pretty good slice of humanity to call home.

Have fun, play pinball and get in touch with that happy place that got you playing pinball in the first place.

Every f@#&in' day!

Be well.

c2s

Then this must be the official beverage of pinside.

ET0N1rgWkAU7qTJ (resized).jpg

Apologies for not replying sooner, I do not normally check for posts tagging me (as it's relatively rare) so I only just saw the thread. Since you brought up some of my comments in particular that you perhaps wanted a response to.

I visit Pinside all the time and I don't recall ever stating otherwise. I'm not a particularly prolific poster outside of a few threads.

My statement was regarding that I don't normally reply to threads I feel exist here just to feed drama. I think my posting history demonstrates I mostly stick to more practical threads and podcast threads.

"[The poll] It seems designed for no purpose other than to create drama."
Surely, people create topics on a forums to get a response from the community. But just for drama, you say? That is speculation.
It could be felt by the author as harmless fun or genuine debate.

Correct; I felt I made clear I was speculating by my statement "it SEEMS designed" (emphasis added).

The reason I speculated as such as there was another thread that had just come off a massive drama round involving those same two individuals. So is it possible that the author really just randomly wanted to have some fun or a debate? Sure, but it seemed unlikely to me (and based off the responses to the thread it seemed unlikely to most of the people who replied as well). I did go into more specifics as to the prior drama element during that portion of the podcast so I think I articulated my reasoning clearly (of course no obligation to agree with me).

"It's stuff like that, that gives Pinside the reputation of being a toxic cesspool. That it sometimes quite frankly deserves."
Outrageous. Way out of line remark in my opinion. Deeply offended by branding off the Pinside website with a label like that. Bullying. Stigmatising.

It was not my intent to offend but I can see how it would, and I do offer my apology for that since I didn't set out to upset folks. Those style of posts (the drama posts) are what develop that reputation, and the reputation is very real (I've been directly told by others that they either try to avoid Pinside, use Pinside but refuse to post here, or have totally abandoned Pinside in favor of other pinball discussion venues; I think you or anyone else can verify this easily if desired). The stigma exists and I simply acknowledged it.

I disagree with the claim that my statement is in some way "bullying" as it did not seek to intimidate, harm, or coerce. Nothing I said was designed to get Pinside to change its behavior; me complaining about a person or a place is not tantamount to bullying.

"Because they allowed that thread to exist for as long as it did."
On the podcast you mention it was up for two days. Is that really bad response time for a company the size of Pinside? For content like this? And enough to call them out as irresponsible, not living up to the code... Come on.

I'm happy to discuss the response time and call out claims privately if you wish; Pinside has rules regarding criticizing moderators so I will not weigh in on those questions publicly for that reason.

I did discuss how I felt the thread wasn't nice (and given it was deleted I assume ultimately that was the determination of the moderation team). I really don't like seeing people run down in this hobby for sport, and that's how I took it. As I noted, the post got me on a bad day, and I was still pretty heated during the podcast.

"It's like, you wanna know why everyone thinks that this place is a shithole. There you go."
Everyone - Sure of that? Shithole - Phew, strong stuff, Sir. Again, way out of line remark. When I hear something like this, I picture an echo chamber within a circle of friends that is resonating well in the red. Who is stiring up drama now then?

"Everyone" was obviously hyperbole, but fair enough though that my complaining about it could trigger drama (it did trigger this thread at the very least!).

"Because you allow things like this and then you say: Our #1 rule is - be nice."
Let's be fair, shall we. One thing is rules, intend of use etc. on an internet forum. And another is when these are violated to an extend where you can say the host is obligated to take actions of removal of content, banning users etc. And by the way, Pinside did not allow it. They removed it.

Their removal of the post was acknowledged by me during the podcast. I did not hide it and attempted to be comprehensive in my coverage of the topic.

"There is nothing nice about pitting people in a popularity contest."
The forum activity in question was a poll between to pinball individuals with weekly media apperences each. And both of them being pinball professionals, I might add. If this per definition is "not nice" and "pitting people", I guess a house cleaning is in demand a lot of places. Starting with the TWIPYs. Perspective, please.

I've already noted above, and during the podcast episode, that there was clear, prior drama that I felt (perhaps inaccurately, but definitely not alone in the assumption) this new thread was deliberately feeding off of. And given its removal I assume the same determination was officially reached by staff.

I have made public, critical remarks about the TWIPYs pitting people against each other in ways I believe are unhealthy as well.

I have also said that I am fine with criticism. Criticizing products and creations (the art, the code, the dimpling, the delays, whole companies, etc.) I think makes total sense. I never get bothered by a versus poll for pinball machines, for example. I just don't like seeing the people themselves run through like vegetables on a skewer. As small as the hobby is it just seems destructive to me. Just my opinion of course. When it is about the people specifically. We have a favorite and least favorite game from every designer; I doubt they take it any more personally than I do when someone tells me they hated one of my articles and my entire writing style (because it's still really just about the work product).

There is a risk, that if a forum is strongly moderated, the opinions shared are really that of the moderators. As much as the users.
Fair and swift moderation takes resources. Both maintaining the rulebook and enforcing it. A challange for a free spirit and niche internet community.
If a forum has a strongly enforced rulebook, it is just too easy to sabotage it. And to occupy their time with stuff you post just to be taken down. With a bully-smile and stop watch in the other hand.
Verified membership, full name, mug shot etc. would surely clean up a forum. But also clean out a forum. Facebook is more restricted in this regard. And even there, heated and rough on the edges debate takes place.

These are fair points, and the way I might like things may not be the way the majority of you want things. Nonetheless, I was upset and venting my frustrations while trying to explain my perspective. A perspective that is not unique to me (though it may be the minority view).

Last words...
The free spirit internet has a cost. Please accept it within reason, for the positive that free spirit internet brings with it.
Soren

Thank you for posting Soren. My apologies for not noticing it originally and my delay in replying. Feel free to contact me privately if you (or others) would like to discuss things further/in more detail.

I will note something that I did not state during the podcast. Pinside is a very helpful resource, from sales to tech support to a lot of really good discussions. Robin has always been helpful and great to correspond with and my private discussions with the other staff have also been positive. Yes, some of the stuff annoys me, but usually I don't have my fuse set off from it. I stand by my criticisms of the specific thread but I see how some of my hyperbole and broad-based criticism could upset people (such as it did Soren) and for that I apologize. I should have calmed down more before discussing the issue as I normally do.

I also come here to read the novels, but sometimes get sidetracked after only a few sentences.

You want pinside to not = garbage, yet every thread turns into political bullshit. No one wants to hear either side of the aisle on here. Keep this shit out and pinside would not be such a toxic dump.

What can happen here is sometimes when one side speaks, the other side or no side comes in with a sensible rebuttal, then gets shown to the door.

I just wish neither side would speak. I don't want to hear political opinions, even ones I agree with. Pinball opinions are another story, worth listening to both sides at times.

Wow, this thread went into the shitter awfully fast. Kind of ironic considering the original post. I won't drain it though because reading this is fun.

I feel like I was part of this tangent. I do think it's a good forum with lots of great people but it could use some improvements. I'm not a fan of the don't say anything bad about the place and just put it on a pedestal. There is a lot of Americans here and your culture is completely polarized right now. It really rubs off around here. When it's not politics, it Stern, JJP, Dimpling is normal, TPN, Kaneda, it just goes on and on and its always ends up with one side against the other and its really hard to have any kind of dialog.

Another thing, I'm sure many people here have admirers that just downvote them all the time, I know I do. It just gives this place the weirdest vibe. They should make those people donate, like a message pops up and says you have downvoted this person X times, you must donate before you can downvote them again.

Pinside freakin’ rocks.

I also can’t stand the condescending attitude a lot of pinball people have towards it. It’s an incredible resource and a great community. Very well run. Very slick compared to every other forum. We are incredibly lucky it exists and thrives.

And how do you guys have time to read the political crap? That really is the most boring part of the site.

Thanks Robin and all of Pinside!

Though I agree with the sentiment (i.e. US very polarized), this sounds pretty hypocritical to say when you are adding fuel to the fire. “We’re a victim of you crazy Americans and your polarizing conversation, stop making us join in!”

Really, dude?

If you come to Pinside and only see garbage, perhaps you are in need of a visit to the eye doctor? There are a ton of useful threads on here that do not have political garbage in them. The Gene Cunningham thread going on right now is a gem you are not going to find on Facebook. I think if you come here looking for shit, then you are going to gravitate toward it.

I think Pinside has enough members that use the site correctly and happily. The majority. To say that people try to “avoid”, “refuse to post” or “have totally abandoned” Pinside just sounds childish and pompous. Simply put...they aren’t using the site correctly.

Some people here are know-it-alls, condescending, better than everyone else, and I think they are the ones that make this site worse. Egos that can’t fit inside a damn System 80 cab. But I avoid them. At least try to.

Robin has always been accommodating and understanding when I had an issue.

Lloyd is the man, friendly as hell and a tremendous asset. Helps everyone.

Aurich was always cool when I joined, awesome products and even invited me to his place when I was in Cali.

I could go on. A lot of great people here, and I’ve made a good amount of friends. I don’t like everybody on here, and not everybody likes me. But that’s life. If you don’t like drama, don’t click on dramatic threads...or engage with people that have big heads.

I like pinball, and I’m here to share that hobby with a bunch of guys and gals that enjoy and have passion for the same exact thing. Whether you have 1 old EM game, or 20 NIB Sterns.

Although, not soren 's intent, this tread proves Dennis's comments on The Pinball Show.

There are two sides to Pinside, the side Soren described in his post and the one Dennis spoke about on TPS. There is a reason the majority of designers/artists/coders aren't on here regularly. Also, I've had some amazing help from the club threads...

This thread proves nothing. Because a few people come in here and start acting like idiots and instigating personal attacks, that speaks for the whole site or community? No, it doesn’t.

I customarily don’t enter or click on threads like this anymore, and now I see why. That’s why I enjoy the site. It’s actually quite easy.

Yup... that was my point...

I think pinside could use a few less members, and a few more women.

The crazy thing from my perspective is I try to never add fuel to the fire. In this thread all I said, is this place is a lot better if you filter out some of the assholes and stupid shit. Then people actually tried to argue that they are part of the class of people known as stupid asshole and tried to cry discrimination. Yes I pointed out how stupid that is. I’m don’t play the whole both sides. If I’m an asshole I’ll think about it. You actually quoted my post that I said I was part of this, but for some reason left that out. I’m not a victim of anything.

I see what you did there!

Unintentional, but point taken. Sorry about that!

I've often thought that the worst of the run-away arguments, drunk posting rampages, obvious trolling etc. could easily be mitigated if robin could implement a post-rate limiter of some kind.

Basically, you aren't allowed to post more frequently than say two or three 3 times in 1 hour in the same thread, or five times across all threads kind-of-thing.

Or another approach might be that your post rate is limited based on your feedback ratio, so if your feedback is > 95% positive, say, you are unlimited, if 85% - 95% then above rule applies, < 85%, then once per thread per hour.

This could help to prevent micro-bursts from one rude poster running rampage with a flood of typically off-topic posts in quick succession that often fuels the worst conflicts on the site.

Basement topics need not be limited.

Thoughts?

*checks feedback ratio*

Meh. I could manufacture a few rosy posts and get that number to 95% easily. That score wouldn’t weed out as many people as you think it would, I suspect. And a hard universal limit, in practice, would really suck if and when you were talking through a tech issue or repair and had to watch the clock to continue your diagnosis or inquiry.

Not that easy to maintain if you’re trollish by nature.

Maybe exclude tech threads.

I think it has merit.

Ah, but did you tell them I only invite people to my place so I can tell them to their face that I won't sell them anything?

Aurich is cool. He once left me a great yelp review. But I'm still waiting for that alternate Shadow translite- the Peter North edition.

★★★★★ Would smoke bong and play Pit Stop again

Cheers o-din!

grape (resized).png

Same to you, buddy.

beer (resized).jpg

Guys I feel I need to offer my apologies to Gambit for my attack on him, he didn't deserve it and was only posting his opinion, I should have kept my mouth shut. I have participated in many thread conversations with Gambit over the years and for the most part appreciated his stark but honest opinions with the emphasis on honest which is a trait I truly value in a person. Gambit I hope you can accept my apology and that we can move forward if not as friends at least as mutual and respectful pinsiders on the forum.

Russ

I like your style dude. As a person that says a lot of things I regret later, I find myself asking for forgiveness a lot so I can appreciate it when I see others do the same.

There are a few people here I won't sell to, simply because they lied to me to try to get a lower price. I can smell that bullshit from a mile away, so they're done as far as I'm concerned. The others that I have sold to have been wonderful people, most of whom I've met in person. Pinside is really a 50/50 place, and a microcosm of the real world. Half are great people who will give you the shirt off their backs to advance the hobby. The other half are a bunch of self-serving assholes who think they know everything and their opinion is fact. Those are the people I love to make fun of and am happy to get moderated when I do so. Some folks need to show a little humility and have a sense of humor from time to time...

No worries, my man. We are all good.

Was it the old the bird died and grandma needs a transfusion story?

You can't believe the ridiculous shit I've heard. "Lemme go get ten bucks from my dad..." And then you see the guy's collection. I've got one guy that continually tries to get the price down because of his low-paying occupation, and another that's always going through a "tough time." They don't realize they're talking to a music teacher.

Thank you for your service to our children and communities, teachers are the most underrated and overlooked positions within the American professions. I've always found it odd that we are willing to pay college prof. more than our grade/highschool teachers who have already done the hard work for them but get no credit!

Thanks, buddy. We've been told we're going back to school in September and all employees are required to wear a mask, face shield, and have a plexiglas wall around our desks. Students are "strongly encouraged" to wear masks. WTF???

I'm going to feel more like I'm working in a high-security bank than in a school, but I'm going to get a small taste of what all the awesome frontline workers have been going through for the past few months.

I appreciate the kind words. YOU, I will sell anything to, anytime.

Last night your wife told me about the new restrictions when you go back to teaching this fall. Tough break.

Gonna be hard to be heard with mask and shield let alone the plexi around your deck Seems like they should just make the kids and you wear mask and that be sufficient really.

Nah, buddy...that was your wife. You just like to close your eyes and pretend you upgraded.

That’s impossible. Both were there, and yours said that’s exactly what she was doing.

Unlike you, I can handle multiball.

Damn, both your wives have balls?