(Topic ID: 113487)

I have officially lost any and all respect for Stern as a company.


By erak

4 years ago



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  • 129 posts
  • 86 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by RyanStl
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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-13
#1 4 years ago

So, Im looking on Sterns website today on the off chance that there was a Christmas update for Star Trek.

I went into the read me file and began to look it over.

I noticed more updates added from Oct 2013 to the Dec 2013 christmas update.
Than the entire 8 month span until the August 2014 update.

Do the math. More updates In under 2 months than 8?
And none in over 4.

There is no excuse for this. I think customers should be refunded a portion of their purchase price. Or compensated in some way.
Honestly its incomplete and unfinished product. And not what was advertised.
There is no disclaimer saying the game will be shipped incomple and finished as Stern sees fit, or as time permits.

Obviously customer satisfaction is the last thing on their agenda.
Seems like "just get them sold and we will hopefully get to it later."

Any pinside lawyers out there think owners have a case?

Anyways. Merry Christmas! Happy holidays!
And Stern, Get BACK TO WORK!

I call shinannigans!

#2 4 years ago

Well at least your not putting $$$ down hoping for the game to be made. There you go, glass half full

53
#3 4 years ago

Just quit buying any new pinball machines until the firmware is complete to your satisfaction.

It's the same thing with every release, Stern, JJP, hell, I've even got Williams games with incomplete software....

#4 4 years ago

100% feeling the same.

It's really a shame that Stern didn't finish the Code for Star Trek after such a long time.

Having an LE is frustrating because of the potential this Game could have with the more Lights and Flasher Effects.
And the Sound Issues with the mixing and Loudness are a shame too after waiting so long for the Karl Urban Speech Pack.

Finish the Code Stern!!!
This could be one of the best Stern Pins ever made with the right Code.

With this Code Update Behaviour Stern lost one more NIB Customer until i see a change in releasing games which are not mostly finished

#5 4 years ago

I don't really understand all the fuss...i've got one, have fun every time i play it...perfect? No! but what in life is? Just imagine our precious hobby without stern keeping it alive...we would probably be paying $8k for shaq attack by now....enjoying my 1/2 glass full

#6 4 years ago

Stern, get your ass back in the program and fix the bonus x glitch in Avengers. How hard is that to fix?!, damn.

Thanks, fan.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Just quit buying any new pinball machines until the firmware is complete to your satisfaction.
It's the same thing with every release, Stern, JJP, hell, I've even got Williams games with incomplete software....

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#8 4 years ago

I don't really see what all the fuss is about, i bought an £18000 car last year and so far it has been recalled twice by the manufacturer, would i call that an incomplete product "no". This is just the way things work now the same as any other manufacturer, get the product out so people can start using it and then if any updates, faults occur they can be addressed at a later date. just my opinion.

#9 4 years ago

Not this shit again.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from buttsy19:

I don't really see what all the fuss is about, i bought an £18000 car last year and so far it has been recalled twice by the manufacturer, would i call that an incomplete product "no". This is just the way things work now the same as any other manufacturer, get the product out so people can start using it and then if any updates, faults occur they can be addressed at a later date. just my opinion.

So to my understanding if you bought a car that needed a recall/ update. And you got one in 2 months that seemed great. Then it was advertised a great new improvement was coming. But that took 8 months. Then the update caused a bunch more issues/problems and some advertised features were missing. Another 4 months pass.

But instead of addressing these issues they just release a new model.
And tell you you have to wait because they are working on the new one.
You would be happy with that excuse?

I get what you are saying. But this situation is different that a recall.

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from erak:

So to my understanding if you bought a car that needed a recall/ update. And you got one in 2 months that seemed great. Then it was advertised a great new improvement was coming. Then the update caused a bunch more issues/problems and some advertised features were missing.
But instead of addressing these issues they just release a new model.
And tell you you have to wait because they are working on the new one.
You would be happy with that excuse?
I get what you are saying. But this situation is different that a recall.

No i would not be happy, i would accept the situation as is providing the retailer was willing to rectify any faults that occurred at no cost to me, i have had this happen on several occasions with products i have bought over the years. In the UK we have something called the sale of goods act which states.
If you buy a product that turns out to be faulty, you can choose to reject it which means you can give it back and get a refund.
But, the law only gives you a reasonable time to do this – what's reasonable depends on the product and how obvious the fault is.
However, even with major purchases or complex items, it’s safest to work on the basis you usually have no more than three to four weeks from when you receive it to reject it.
Getting faulty goods replaced or repaired
You have the right to get faulty goods replaced or repaired if it's too late to reject them. You can ask the retailer to do either, but they can normally choose to do whatever would be cheapest.
Under the Sale of Goods Act, the retailer must either repair or replace faulty goods 'within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience'.
If the seller doesn't do this, you're entitled to claim either:
• a reduction on the purchase price, or
• your money back, minus an amount for the usage you've had of the goods (called recision)
If the retailer refuses to repair the goods, and they won't replace them either, you may have the right to arrange for someone else to repair your item, and then claim compensation from the retailer for the cost of doing this.
You have six years to take a claim to court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland; in Scotland you have five years.
Not sure if the U.S and Canada has a similar law.

#12 4 years ago

i totaly understand you

ST LE looks great but is totally boring!!!

-no original sound
-no subwoofer only the cheapest china speakers
-boring animations
-boring firmware

its always the same problem with stern

thy don't care after the have the money

#13 4 years ago

I used to own STLE.

Made a simple decision.

With prices the way they are, I am voting with my wallet and not buying any more NIB.

Companies listen if revenue falls.

#14 4 years ago

Thats exactly what I am saying. Stern either needs to pull it together and focus on the games that have issues before releasing new titles. Specifically because it seems they dont have the manpower to code multiple titles.
Its a flaw in how they operate.

Or compensate buyers for not being able to support their product in a timely manner.

Anything, a ST keyfob or Sticker. Or nice printed rulecards when the game is done. Because the rulecards that come with the game are worthless as those are out of date.
just to say "hey we f-d this one up, but thanks for being a customer and waiting."

But lesson learned I guess... fool me once,

#15 4 years ago

How long has this been the norm?
Since before Avatar...
Was SM released with bare bones code?

#16 4 years ago

Stop buying unfinished games and they will stop leaving games unfinished. It sucks that Stern would leave loyal customers hanging like this, but they have no incentive to finish the game as long as people keep buying up their incomplete games.

#17 4 years ago

One of the worst initial released code debacles has to be XM. That game was so incomplete and flawed upon release it was almost funny. Wasn't funny to me becuase I puchased that one early on. Guess I can laugh about it now the sting has worn off.

I think with the way the pinball market is headed its best to wait for solid code and usually save money by purchasing on secondary market. I know pinball addicts have a history of being very loose with their cash when new pins are concerned but there is only so much disappointment many will take. I hope things will change but have my doubts about it changing any time soon.

21
#18 4 years ago

Sorry... Had to make this...

stern.gif

#19 4 years ago

This is a bunch of crap. games should be >95% complete programming wise before release. A lot of VP pinballs are much more complicated with deeper rules and they are complete from day one.

-7
#20 4 years ago

shhhh.. they're taking lessons from MicroSoft..
(and I heard Bill Gates looked in his trousers when he named his company)

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from zizzlemeplease:

shhhh.. they're taking lessons from MicroSoft..
(and I heard Bill Gates looked in his trousers when he named his company)

...?

#22 4 years ago

Well, Stern has been operating the same way for years
I cannot see them changing the way they do things

so the choice is yours, buy new Sterns or dont't

#23 4 years ago

Come on really?

#24 4 years ago

Imagine buying a new car that promises 40mpg. You get it home and notice that the best mileage that your getting is around 20mpg. You complain to the company and they say that some day you will receive a fully functioning 40mpg car, but you'll have to wait untill they get around to it. They might make a couple different cars first, your just going to have wait. Someday, after your new product has lost a bunch of it's value and years have past, and after many newer cars are out; then we'll get around to fixing your machine up to what you were promised when it was sold to you.

This is nothing like a recall for a faulty component. Stern is shipping goods that are Not complete.

#25 4 years ago

Every game that stern had made in the past several years has shipped incomplete. Every game stern has shipped in recent years has had long intervals between code updates and most to this day remain incomplete (avengers spinner has no rule, h bounce back; xmen, etc.).

Two things must happen to correct this behavior:

1. We need to get on Stern to address these issues, especially the older games with more egregious bugs. Send email, call them, post on forums.

2. We stop buying NIB games.

I love Stern's games (look at my lineup), but it is very frustrating indeed, and is a reason I passed on TWD and won't touch NIB anymore. To be fair, code deficiencies are not limited to Stern, WOZ has had many updates, albeit with much higher frequency.

Complaint on the forum, which I'm guilty of, may not be the best approach.

#26 4 years ago

Till jjp can ship more than two games per decade (which hopefully starts in 2015) stern is still the only real game in town. IMO

17
#27 4 years ago

You never buy a product based on future promises... Pinball is the only hobby I've seen where people fall for this same trick over and over. No matter how many times they're told to Vote With Their Wallet, it keeps happening.

If Game Of Thrones LE was announced today, 500 suckers would be tripping over their dicks to order it sight unseen for 8 grand.

#28 4 years ago

I don't have respect for any company. I bought a NIB game after I had heard the code was up to snuff.

#29 4 years ago

Yawn, new year, let's try some new topics.

#30 4 years ago

I still think Stern is in the rear view mirror on so many levels. DMD vs. LCD for one. They really need to update their platform. It is so easy to work on WoZ from a software perspective. Having that full LCD screen when you are working on the pin is golden.

I can understand getting code "good enough" to get out the door. But they should finish it very quickly. Weeks, not months.

#31 4 years ago

How is this unique to ST? Unless Lyman is the programmer, you can't really expect anything more.

I'm not agreeing with Stern's approach, and think they would be smart to invest more in satisfying the collector community, but don't think you should be surprised or expecting some type of compensation.

ST is a really good game that could be truly great with some more development. I think that's what makes the lack of updates more frustrating than some other Stern games where even the best rules would only make it a 7'or 8.

#32 4 years ago

Well, I would have to give it to JJP the games are slow to come but the code at least shows up in a timely manor.

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from erak:

Any pinside lawyers out there think owners have a case?

C'mon guys. This is silly.

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from erak:

Thats exactly what I am saying. Stern either needs to pull it together and focus on the games that have issues before releasing new titles. Specifically because it seems they dont have the manpower to code multiple titles.
Its a flaw in how they operate.
Or compensate buyers for not being able to support their product in a timely manner.
Anything, a ST keyfob or Sticker. Or nice printed rulecards when the game is done. Because the rulecards that come with the game are worthless as those are out of date.
just to say "hey we f-d this one up, but thanks for being a customer and waiting."
But lesson learned I guess... fool me once,

They will have plenty of time to finish code when they release WWE as I do not think that title will sell well and they will need to re release older titles to combat that. I expect Star Trek to get a new edition with new code.

#35 4 years ago

Where in the Stern sales material released at launch does it say "the rules will be x,y,z and the lighting effects will be a,b,c"?

Just because it doesn't work the way the pinball community thinks it should or that they have not implemented all the features we dreamed up does not make it a defective product...

Einstein defined insanity as "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Anyone buying Stern NIB and complaining about unfinished code is insane...

#36 4 years ago

What did Stern promise for ST that has not yet been delivered?

#37 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballmike217:

Yawn, new year, let's try some new topics.

Please?

#38 4 years ago

All you have to do is sell all your Stern games that you are unhappy with. Problem solved, and you get most all of your money back, with some depreciation as a cost for the small amount of enjoyment that might have gotten playing your game. I know, I know... you probably did not get any enjoyment at all (from the sounds of this thread)... but you still can get most of your money back.

I suggest you do the same with any device that runs computer code. It's just wrong you constantly have to update your computer operating systems, applications, phones, tablets, blu-ray players, wifi routers, etc etc etc. Just wait until the code is "finished" or "95%" from now on. You'll save tons of money with this approach, and from the sound of it you will be so much happier for it.

News flash for all of those still with a "pre-internet" understanding of computer code: It is now standard that nobody ever really considers computer code ever "finished" and "final" or even "95% done". It is and always be a work-in-progress. It's a continuous-improvement or evolutionary philosophy. And it makes it so much better. Adjust your thinking on this, or just stop bothering the rest of us with your failure to understand the nature of developing computer code.

#39 4 years ago

This is one reason why the Vault Editions are such a great option.
There is no risk on "what will be" and how long it will take to get there.

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from kirkgun:

News flash for all of those still with a "pre-internet" understanding of computer code: It is now standard that nobody ever really considers computer code ever "finished" and "final" or even "95% done". It is and always be a work-in-progress. It's a continuous-improvement or evolutionary philosophy. And it makes it so much better. Adjust your thinking on this, or just stop bothering the rest of us with your failure to understand the nature of developing computer code.

I bought my NIB Mustang with that understanding. Just the nature of the beast.

#41 4 years ago

Stern is kind a like a really hot woman that cheats on you. You love her, you treat her well, but she just keeps screwing you over.
Eventually you just have to say enough of this crap and dump her ass.

#42 4 years ago

And yet STLE is my favorite game ever. The game is great as is. Any further updates are gravy. Draining this topic after this post so I don't have to look at the idiotic topic again.

#43 4 years ago
Quoted from kirkgun:

All you have to do is sell all your Stern games that you are unhappy with. Problem solved, and you get most all of your money back, with some depreciation as a cost for the small amount of enjoyment that might have gotten playing your game. I know, I know... you probably did not get any enjoyment at all (from the sounds of this thread)... but you still can get most of your money back.
I suggest you do the same with any device that runs computer code. It's just wrong you constantly have to update your computer operating systems, applications, phones, tablets, blu-ray players, wifi routers, etc etc etc. Just wait until the code is "finished" or "95%" from now on. You'll save tons of money with this approach, and from the sound of it you will be so much happier for it.
News flash for all of those still with a "pre-internet" understanding of computer code: It is now standard that nobody ever really considers computer code ever "finished" and "final" or even "95% done". It is and always be a work-in-progress. It's a continuous-improvement or evolutionary philosophy. And it makes it so much better. Adjust your thinking on this, or just stop bothering the rest of us with your failure to understand the nature of developing computer code.

Welcome to pinside. Thanks for the lesson. Now you can stop bothering us with your failure to understand the pinball community.

#44 4 years ago

If we can be serious for a moment. If a whole bunch of pinsider's decided to do a class action lawsuit against Stern for all the unfinished code / products that they deliver and then never finish...I think Stern would be in big trouble. They would be guilty of false advertising...on a certain level they would be guilty of fraud... Shady sell practices.

At any rate Gary just thinks all the pinheads on here are cattle and that they will all follow each other to the slaughterhouse one behind another. And to some degree he is absolutely right!!!

Now instead of always bitching about the code....STOP BUYING NIB...and tell Stern where they can shove it. Until then line up or get all together and do something.

Ex. I am sure there are a lot of people in the Chicago area that are mad against Stern for this specific reason. Just organize a demonstration in front of Stern's HQ and protest. Call the city police to get a permit and call a media outlet. Stern couldn't do shit about it and the media outlets would jump on this because it's free press. 100-200 mad pinheads would do the trick.

All this would just cost you guys your time and a bit of gas money! And may e a few bucks for a well made sign. I protested against my home builder once over my roof vents. I had to shovel snow out of my attic every time it snowed. The builder was arrogant until 8 of us lined up in front of their sales office with a big sign "Our roofs are leaking".

The media outlets just gave us enough press to get follow interviews with more media. Just to say that miraculously the next week my vents were changed!

One thing a company doesn't want is bad press to the masses because then everyone knows... Just not the folks on this forum. Stern is not afraid of bitching on pinside because it's isolated. Now blow the cover and show them what you are made of.

Last but not least. I have never been a NIB purchaser for this specific reason.

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

They would be guilty of false advertising...

How?

#46 4 years ago

Advertising 8 songs on mustang and switching that up after they deliver the product would be one of many examples. Having a feature on a pkayfield that doesn't work would be another. That would be like having a cruise button on your car that was promised and does absolutely nothing

#47 4 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

I don't have respect for any company. I bought a NIB game after I had heard the code was up to snuff.

You have no respect for any pinball manufacturer? Try to guess what this hobby would look like if manufacturing stopped in 2000 completely? JJP is doing a great job, and only trying to improve and bring quality to the table. You have no respect for that? Even the boutique people deserve respect for the stages they have reached. It's a long unhealthy haul, one that should have been done with their money, but to say you have no respect for any of them is a really awful thing to say in pinball.

Frolic - not a personal attack at all, but I personally find your thumbs down of the op especially interesting, given I believe you are in for every manufacturer and having to wait and clearly one of the more vocal ones of each thread. I'm sure you have a couple incomplete Stern games in there as well.

The only answer to these types of things is "you should know better by now" and "don't buy until you can live with what you have right now with this machine".

If you go against that, hell even if you were doing that two years ago, you knowingly played the shittiest type of pinball risk vs reward.

A public pinside boycott of stern products until they complete their games should be started as a *sticky thread* here, and adhered to by all. Stern would have no choice but do this, but you should all be adamant about all games in the past getting their just updates as well, right back to WOF, and everything in the future having a expected date of completion.

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Advertising 8 songs on mustang and switching that up after they deliver the product would be one of many examples. Having a feature on a pkayfield that doesn't work would be another. That would be like having a cruise button on your car that was promised and does absolutely nothing

"Game subject to change"
Case dismissed.
Buyers don't have to be pleased, but I highly doubt any judge would side against Stern, especially if it was explained that this is the way they've been doing business for years and years.
Even if you had people show up with signs and get news coverage, I don't expect anyone would care.
The public is barely aware that pinball still exists. Can you imagine the general consensus if a bunch of protestors were on TV, complaining that their games were missing rules?
I agree that this is Sterns biggest issue but am chuckling at the thought of an actual news report.
It would be like an uprising of Klingons at a Comicon, because someone decided to change the official costume colours.

#49 4 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

You have no respect for any pinball manufacturer? Try to guess what this hobby would look like if manufacturing stopped in 2000 completely? JJP is doing a great job, and only trying to improve and bring quality to the table. You have no respect for that? Even the boutique people deserve respect for the stages they have reached. It's a long unhealthy haul, one that should have been done with their money, but to say you have no respect for any of them is a really awful thing to say in pinball.
Frolic - not a personal attack at all, but I personally find your thumbs down of the op especially interesting, given I believe you are in for every manufacturer and having to wait and clearly one of the more vocal ones of each thread. I'm sure you have a couple incomplete Stern games in there as well.
The only answer to these types of things is "you should know better by now" and "don't buy until you can live with what you have right with this machine".
If you go against that, hell even if you were doing that two years ago, you knowingly played the shittiest type of pinball risk vs reward.
A public pinside boycott of stern products until they complete their games should be started as a *sticky thread* here, and adhered to by all. Stern would have no choice but do this, but you should all be adamant about all games in the past getting their just updates as well, right back to WOF, and everything in the future having a expected date of completion.

Respect people, not companies.

#50 4 years ago

Buy the game 1-year after release and know what you are getting. End of.

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