Hi Pinside!

I bought a project Strato-flite a few weeks ago. The game had been up and running, but with problems. The game would start, and play the first ball, but never advance. I found lots of help for what could be causing the problem. The first was a gummed player stepper in the back box. I cleaned and got that working. That didn't have an effect on advancing the ball though. I checked the action on the ball stepper. It seemed okay. One of the fingers was bent off the copper so I did my best to repair that. Then I checked over all the relays. They seemed okay. Adjusted a couple but very minor adjustments. Then I remember something happening on the coin door where suddenly the game seemed to be endlessly producing credits. I checked all the contacts on the coin mech and again made some adjustments and the endless credits seemed to stop. That's around the last time I remember the game behaving like a game. I may have cleaned the jones plugs somewhere in there too, and removed and inspect the fuses.

Here is where it gets weird.

When you power up my game now, everything produces a credit.

You don't have to start the game. Press a flipper. Credit. Touch a target. Credit.
I've checked, and the game over relay seems to be working correctly.
However there is still power going to the flippers and if I touch anything that scores points on the table. A credit.
If I start the game, the game goes through it's proper start-up. The relays fire. The steppers reset. The ball is ejected. However no playfield lights come on, and nothing scores. Everything just activates a credit +1.

I've been checking relays, messing with the credit reel, examining the coin door. I cannot figure out what I've done.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Anyone want to give a noob a helping hand diagnosing this weirdness?

Thank you for anything

Evan

The lock relay is still.

I will take out the jones plugs and see if that's the problem.

If not, I'll try your suggestions.

Thank you very much!

Well, if I can't get it working. You've given me an idea.

Thanks TwinDavid, AndrewP. I'll take them out, and see if I messed up.

The play adjust pin was in the extra ball position. I moved it to the free game position and the flippers scoring a credit went away. The flippers are now dead. The game starts, but the flippers don't fire at all.

I can also verify that the lock relay is not firing at all, never mind staying energized.

I took out all the jones plugs and put them back carefully, and the game behaves the same.

I did notice that the extra ball relay is firing when you touch a flipper or something on the playfield.

I haven't looked at the 25 cent or 10 cent relays yet. I'll do that next.

Thank you for your help.

If movies or images of any of these things would help, please just ask.

EDIT: The 10c and 25c relays look okay. The very last relay (next to the 10c) is junk. Almost no action, looks like some blades are contacting. I tried to adjust them a bit, but no change. I also noticed there was a bit of solder at the base of one of the blades, of the 10c relay, but again. Not from me. Didn't seem to be causing a problem before.

I am incorrect about that. The lock relay is energizing when the machine is switched on.

I unplugged and re-plugged the jones plugs again. Same problems. I'm pretty sure they are in correctly. The only doubt I might have is that one of the connections has gone bad with being messed with, but everything else on the game seems like it's working okay. The backboard lights and playfield lights are all working. The lights that are not working are the game lights, like the bonus light. The startup sequence seems fine. All the relays seem to be firing in order and the ball is ejected. Nothing scores on the table though. Everything touched gives free games, and using the flippers does the same. The free ball on the table lights up in time with the flippers as does the back glass free ball light and the free ball relay fires with the flippers. If I change the game mode from free ball to credit, the latter stops happening, but the flippers and the playfield are dead.

I'm dumbfounded.

The Strato-flite jones plugs are 24,20,16, and 12 pin. Your color matching technique mostly works, but there are a couple of reds at the end of the 20 pin that correspond to whites or something that has faded. I'm not saying it isn't a jones plug issue. If it is, it is likely that I've broken a connection that I just haven't seen yet.

Thank you for the color matching tip. I have other machines, and I'm sure I'll use that in the future.

I do have a multimeter. I've used it to test fuses. lol.
I think I'm going to watch a few videos on using one before attempting to touch live wires.

I'm going to do my best to digest the advice you've given me.
Thank you very much for helping me.

Evan

Okay. Thank you.

Does anybody know what that last relay is? The one after 10c. Mine isn't labeled, and the action on it is extremely limited. I don't think I had touched it, so it's unlikely the culprit. It doesn't seem like it's worked for a while.

No. I checked the manual and schematics. Visually they seem to indicate the 10c relay is at the top of the board, but I have one relay above that, and it's broken. Even more so now that I've been at it.

I'm sure if one understand these things better, it's apparent.

Hi baldtwit,

The 10c and 25c relay are linked to a third relay. Page one of the stratoflite manual has coin setup relay next to them.
I think on the schematic it has a 5c relay next to them. Mine isn't labeled, but it is the last relay on the board. It seems logical if you're telling me to look for something on the 10c or 25c relays, and I have totally broken relay attached to those two, that might be the problem. Strange thing is until I came to Pinside, I hadn't touched that relay at all.

I tried messing with the action of the relay yesterday, and just ended up doing more damage to it. Not sure if you can see from the pic but the leaves are bent like crazy now from me trying to adjust it.

Starting to feel in over my head. Suggestions anyone?

In such a case do you buy a new relay, or is this something that can be reconditioned if removed?

I'm sorry if these questions seem beyond basic.

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Yes, pulling out the plug resulted in the same action as the plug in the credit receptacle. No power to flippers or playfield. Startup sequence completes. Ball ejected.

The relay in the picture has the blades pulled from the lifter. That happened while I was trying to get some action from the relay. The relay is locked at the moment. I may have to rebuild or buy a replacement if it's critical.

Thank you again.

Thank you so much! This is exactly the kind of help I can follow.
I've ordered jumpers from Amazon. It'll probably be a couple of days till they get here.
I really appreciate you taking your time for me.

I managed to get the blades from the coin set up relay back into the bracket, and I'll just leave that alone now.

I think I'll also look at the fuse I removed and tested. Seemed like a no brainer, but it was something I monkeyed around with around the time the game stopped working.

Talk soon.

Evan

The only thing the game seems to be missing is an energized playfield and scoring. The ball ejects, the steppers reset, the cosmetic lights both playfield and back glass are lit up. I do have the playfield stripped at the moment except the pop bumpers and lightbulbs. I can't imagine that having any effect. The dmm says the fuses and brackets are okay.

I have a very basic understanding of electricity, and never learned to read schematics.

I will try my best, to learn quickly.

Tonight I'm going to enlist the aid of my wife, and make a video showing you the state of the machine. I'll try to go over the history of what I did to it and how it was/wasn't/isn't working. I'll try to get in close so you can see the state of some of the relays, the door switches, as much as possible.

Thank you. I was cleaning jones plugs around the time it happened. I'll take a good look at it today.

Thank you so much! We took a video of various parts of the machine last night, but the resolution is not high enough to really make out any problems. We're going to do a series of close up photos tonight, and see if that goes better.

Amazon says the jumpers should get here on Monday.

I got pretty excited, because I had cleaned that plug, and hoped that I just hadn't plugged it back in securely. However, It was, and I tried various different configurations as well and there wasn't any change. The connections look okay visually, and feel snug. Both on the board and plug. Thanks again!

I'm trying to figure out what the energized coil on the coin door does. Don't think my gottlieb or bally games have it. It seems to stick a metal pin to the door, but as far as I can tell not much else. The reason I'm thinking about it, is this whole thing coincided (see what I did there) with a crazy credit loop that resulted in me turning the power off. While that credit loop was happening, it seemed like there was a loud buzz on the coin door. What I thought it was, was one of the contacts on one of the coin switches was a little too close, and that seemed to be the case as the credit burst had stopped when I turned it back on.

Hi baldtwit,

The jumpers arrived already and we immediately tried your hack. Flippers suddenly came back to life. I think even with the game off they were energized. My wife and I cheered. Then we laughed because we have no idea what it means.

It was really nice to see them move again.
I'll go back and read your posts and move to the next step when I understand what I'm doing.

Thanx

Have a great weekend

Well I had a couple of cocktails so I tried your second example on the r-y-w wires and the flippers were still firing.

Is this narrowing things down very much?

I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm feeling really good that the answer is closer.

Thank you so much!

EDIT: I'm looking at the schematics now and I think the biggest problem I'm having is they don't seem to reflect what I'm seeing on the board. I'll see relays in a certain order then look at the board and it won't be exactly as on the schematic. At least not to my eye. Then mix in labels missing on half the relays and I'm left wondering where to start. Another thing that confuses me is when I see relays listed in other areas of the schematic. This is at the top of the schematic and it shows the game over relay. However you pointed out the game over relay is not there, it's actuall more in the middle of the schematic.

Capture (resized).PNG

Went down to see the flippers work again, and decided to try something on the playfield. I closed one of the target switches and got a loud buzz coming from the machine. Isn't that the sound of a switch that is making contact when it shouldn't be? The jumper is still on the 2nd coil, and I can confirm the flippers are only working when a game is initialized. Think I suggested otherwise in an earlier post. Today I'm just watching videos and reading about circuits and schematics.

Thanks again

Hi baldtwit,

I think I understand the schematics better now, and the differences between relays and switches. I now see that if I see game over relay as a switch it's telling me that line has become active because the game over relay has fired. I'm still having some confusion finding elements on the schematics on the actual game board. I think that has more to do with missing labels. So I think what you're saying is that since the ball is being ejected it's the tilt relay switch. I think you have the jumper attached to the tilt relay. Is the tilt relay switch one of the blades on the relay, or is it somewhere else? Here are a couple of photos of the relay we've jumpered that you probably don't need.

IMG_0065 (resized).JPG

IMG_0066 (resized).JPG

I inspected the tilt related mechs on the game. I only see the plumb bob and the slam switch on the door. The wires around the plumb bob all seem good. The connector for the slam switch is secure to it's plate, but there is some rust/corrosion underneath it. Not sure if that could be having an effect? I'll sand it away, regardless. I didn't really understand what you meant when you said

"tilt relay switch that one end of the jumper is already on. I just hold down a flipper button and push the switch blades with my finger to force the contacts together more, but it you're not eager to touch live circuits, just jumper the switch or push the blades with something like a wood meat skewer."

I did notice the contact blades on the left flipper are 1 open and then 2 closed, but the 2 closed don't open when you use the flipper. Is that what you were referring to?

Great! Cleaning the contacts on that blade resulted in progress. Flippers now work! The game still doesn't seem to be igniting the playfield lights. Bonus, Kickout hole, etc. I'm also noticing a buzzing rather than scoring when I score elements on the playfield. Sometimes the point scores on the reel. Sometimes no score, and the machine just buzzes until I reset.

Thank you very much for all your help. You are clearly an expert at this. You were pointing to that switch for a while, and I just couldn't believe that a switch that looked like it was behaving fine, and was behaving fine for a week after I got the game, was the problem.

Thank you for your patience.

Evan

Update: I went to see if the credit when flipper use was still happening in extra ball setting, and it was. I started a game, but then it started buzzing. Flippers work, but score credits. Now when I turn it on, there is a feint buzz, and a new game does not start at all. That's got to be easy to figure out, no? Getting the game to begin it's startup must be the first couple of paths on the schematic. The credits being scored when using the flippers or touching the playfield, seems like it is still happening. That one has me very confused.

Game doesn't start any more. Credits in the machine. Should I clean the contacts on the lock relay, now? Slight buzzing coming from the machine that I don't think I noticed before.

EDIT: Cleaned the contacts on the lock relay. No change. Fed a quarter into the game. Game then would boot. Game is set for free play. Very confused. So the coin cleared the blockage in logic? I am going to do a quick video, of the current state of the game and see what you think. The scoring doesn't seem to work very often now. I just seem to get buzzing from the game now when I touch 10 x 100 x 1000 point switches on the playfield. The scoring seemed fine a week ago. I'm wondering if the humidity level in my basement is different than where this game was stored. I run a de-humidifier down there constantly, and my other games aren't suddenly coming down with issues. The video is just going to be very brief. The score reels are dirty as heck, so I imagine one of my next jobs will be cleaning and re-greasing them.

Here is a look/hear at the current state of the game.
I should add that if I switch the play to extra ball, then the credit +1 / extra ball light issue re-emerges and the startup sequence seems to jam until I insert a coin. Which seemed to clear it.

You may need to turn it up after I hit the button to hear the buzz, but there is definitely an audible buzzing of a switch when I hit something on the playfield. Seems to happen with all denominations, but I can say the different chimes are sounding.

You had mentioned the steppers in a previous post. Here is the state of the steppers as I know it.

The bonus stepper seems to be working okay. When the game was working it was doing it's thing, and even when I manually add bonus to it with the game off, it counts them off during the startup process. I keep saying boot up. Sorry about that.

The ball in play stepper had one of it's fingers bent vertical. I could see the scraping action from when it was in place. I did my best to bend it back into it's proper state. I had hoped that would have been the fix to my end of ball issue. It didn't seem to have an effect.

The number of players stepper behind it seems to be working okay.

The active player stepper on the back box was completely jammed. I rebuilt that, and it works when I manually fire it. It also now resets when a new game is initialized. I've never seen the solenoid fire to move it to the next player though. I suspect that's because of the same reason the ball in play never seems to be advanced.

The 0-9 unit seems to working okay.

The credit stepper was looked at and adjusted by me to give the game free play. Seems to be working okay now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was more work to do on it.

I've been playing around with the Strato-flite. Trying to trace down the source of the buzzing that initiates when scoring happens. I'd swear it's coming from the credit reel. To further test that, I manually switched the active score reels on the active player stepper and re-tested reel 2, 3, and 4 and I got the same freeze and buzzing from the same location. So it isn't a stuck score reel making the buzzing. It seems to be a switch on or around the credit reel. Remember, if I switch the game play to extra ball, the error where the extra ball relay, and credit +1 on the score reel still happens, so I would think that, and this new buzzing may be related. Thoughts?

Okay really interesting.

I just did some tests, and when switching the game to extra ball mode. The endless credit loop that started this whole mess came back and I was able to capture a few seconds of it on video. Switching the game to free game ended the issue.

I was taking a video of the extra ball relay firing with the game not started. I then started the game, and it started endlessly giving credits like it had originally.

I also took a photo of the credit wheel. I can take more if you can't see the wire colors.

Here is a video of the extra ball relay firing when flipper touched. Game not started.

Here is a video of the end of the credit loop as I was shutting off the machine. The game did that at the start of these issues.

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Couple more photos.

baldtwit

1 is the last relay on the board. Part of the coin mech. Wondering if it might be guilty of the endless credits?
The relay itself has no action, and I messed it up more. I think the blades are back where they belong.

2 the left flipper switch. I'm not sure what the 2nd switch is about, but I know it isn't doing much at the moment. It's been closed by someone.

IMG_0076 (resized).JPG

IMG_0079 (resized).JPG

I was just downstairs doing tests on the machine, and the ball advanced to 2nd ball. First time I've ever seen that! Still getting the weird hum from the credit reel whenever points are scored in free game mode. I get endless credits whenever points are scored in extra ball mode.
I'm going to clean all the contacts in the coin/credit cycle. It's actually a lot more complicated than I thought it would be. I guess that's because machines weren't just 25c machines. After I do that I'm going to try to get close up photos of all the relays involved and post them.
The bonus lights and kick out hole light are still not coming on at start up. Thanks again.

baldtwit I was going over your older posts about the coin/credit issue. You said that you thought that the 2 bladed switch on the coin index relay should be open. I believe in the picture It is closed. I'm double checking this with you, because that relay is locked/jammed, so opening that switch is going to take a bit. Should I proceed to do that?

I tripped all the score relays one by one. They all stick and hum. I guess that's dirty reels? I'll try to see to that today.

Quick update. Cleaned the rest of the relays like I did the tilt relay. Bonus scoring, bonus lights, kickout lights, etc all working now. Bonus scoring working too. All that seems to be left is buzzing I get from all the score relays. I watched videos on the process yesterday. I'm a little intimidated by the complexity, but I've taken one out and put it back to make sure I can at least do that. I've noticed in my fiddling with the score reels that they do clear on startup. So they function that much. They just seem to hang whenever on field points are scored. I think bonus points are still making it through. I guess we'll know more after they're cleaned.

I cannot thank you enough for all the help you've provided, and putting up with my hyperactive squirrel mind. lol You're right. Cocktails really help deal with these things.

Hi baldtwit,

Pulled apart the 10 and 100 score reels for player 1 today to see if I could get some score happening. Cleaned them up, and got them back together properly. They're resetting properly at game start. The EOS switches seemed like they'd be functioning properly. However I don't get score from the 10 pt slingshots. No buzzing, but no score either. The hundred point still buzzes. I'm not sure if it's the EOS coil that's stuck or something else in the back box. I'll investigate further tomorrow. Thank you for all your help!

Evan

Hi TwinDavid,

Thanks for the link. I'm pretty good on understanding the mechanics of the reel/switches. I think I saw 5 or 6 videos watching teardown of these things before I attempted my first. I'm hoping the reason I didn't see much change in their performance was that I didn't clean the plunger piece that gets sucked into the coil. All of the videos I watched, they cleaned that piece, but mine weren't crazy dirty, so I left well enough alone. Probably my mistake. Going to take a 2nd crack at them today, and we'll see.

baldtwit

Took apart the 100 pt score reel and gave it a good cleaning. Coil plunger sanded clean. Plastics all cleaned. Put it back together. It resets properly, as it always has, but the coil not releasing is still happening. I've hesitated adjusting the EOS switch, because it looks like if the coil works as it should. It should be opening the switch. My question. If the EOS switch opens, is it possible that another switch is keeping the coil powered, (thinking something on the playfield) or am I barking up the wrong tree?

As always, thank you so much!

I should point out that it doesn't start until the 100pt is scored. I'd be confused if another stuck switch was keeping it energized, because it doesn't happen until 100pts is scored. Maybe what I'm suggesting is impossible, however I was playing/testing things on the game when this all happened. Could the 100pt relay itself be the culprit?

I'm thinking that if the coil were sucking in the plunger enough, then the act of shutting off the power should score the point. Right? If the plunger retracts to where it should, then when released it should then score the point. The very fact that the point is not scoring then means the plunger is not retracting enough? Is there a reason that would be happening on a freshly cleaned reel, that does reset properly? I mean, even if the reset sequence is powered differently, it must use the EOS switches to determine when the plunger needs to release? It also must be using the same coil/plunger to make the reel turn during the reset, and it's moving just fine. I'm very confused again.

EDIT: Another thing that suggests that it isn't the score reel itself is the fact that every reel in the game stopped working at once. 10, 100, 1000. None of the reels score for any of the players in the game. That's 12 out of 16 reels and all of them simultaneously stopped working? 1 in a million (probably more).

baldtwit You are too kind! Thank you so much!
I'll follow all of your suggestions and let you know of the results.

baldtwit You did it!

It was the tilt relay again.

Strato-flite is now back to how it was when I got it. I must have tried to clean those relays when I was trying to get the game to advance to ball 2, and probably made them unstable. I read a comment somewhere from someone saying that cleaning switches leaves behind residue, and so I've since switched to clean with a file. Clean with a bit of paper towel. Results seem more stable.

Strangely enough the original problem I was having with the ball / player not advancing returned. Up until the scoring was fixed, the ball was advancing. Now it has stopped again. Strange coincidence? Is there anything on the tilt relay that could involve advancing the ball?

Thank you so much! I could not have got this far without you!

You're a wizard!