Have you ruled out a magnetized armature? I ran across one recently that caused intermittent interlock relay reset issues. If you haven't already you might try swapping armatures with another interlock relay like the 100k relay which probably doesn't get as much use.

/Mark

If the Credit stepper unit doesn't decrement when this happens it could be an electrical problem, likely with a switch on Motor 4C.

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I’m in for hating it. One game I had the damn thing would stop working once I put it back in the relay holder with the hairpin clip. If I took it out and let it hang the game worked fine.

Ax for sure, AG relays in general.

Not just ax/bx, but other versions of interlock relays too. I’ve had a nice game down for years because of this. I’m in the club.

I've had switch leafs that were starting to crack from metal fatigue - they would hold a bend for a short time, then the metal would just give in to the stress at the crack and bend itself out of position again. Just another thought.

i'm all in for the hate !

I'm not crazy about their interlocking relays or the little match number unit, but after I get them 'right' they don't seem to cause any more problems. But ya gotta get 'em right and not overadjust the switches or other things, but then that goes for any relay.

Don’t tell me this! Haha. Just fiddled with an AX relay on Quick Draw yesterday and finally got it. But this video may help you. Worked wonders for me once I saw how it is supposed to snap back. The key for me was getting the long blades adjusted so that they help it snap back when the latch releases.

We'll add decagon score reels to Ax and AG relays. Fiddly damned things.

Call Gottlieb and complain

I've often wondered; what was Doc (Garbark) thinking? Sometimes worse!

Sure, some of these things can be a pain to dial in. But how many things do you have now that you expect will be running in 50 years, or even 20 years?

These things are like the Mars rovers. They were expected to last a few months and some are working years later.

But it's sort of like I had a Mars rover in my living room. It's going to have a REALLY long lifespan after I shop it out and it's not on Mars or even outside. And if the rover is brand new, forget it!

I like to state its due to the shorter contact arms Gottlieb seemed fond of, very touchy on adjustments. Once you get it though, they do seem to run just as long as anything else. Melody been setup in the wife units game room for a few years now and has been perfectly happy. I think I popped the hood to change a lamp and thats been it.

Same; I had a Jungle King that about drove me crazy staying in adjustment and an Orbit I sold cheap as it would not consistently keep track of balls short of a one player game. Gottlieb changed a number of control mechs in this timeframe, not all of them worked out.

What they all think. How to do it cheaper.

Alvin Gottlieb was responsible for the AG relay (thus the initials).

Absolutely agree, but the difference is Williams and Bally games still work 50 years later and aren't such a PITA to work on. Gottliebs are pretty much the gold standard for features although not true in all cases. But work on a decagon reel and then work on a Williams or Bally of the same vintage and tell me which you'd rather deal with. To be fair, Williams went to the dinky match unit like Gottlieb and theirs is even worse than the AS.

We won't even touch the half moon credit unit. Even Gottlieb realized that was a goof.

I have several 1977/1978 model Gottlieb’s with this relay and never had a problem with them. I guess if they’re adjusted right they don’t fail?

You're lucky. Don't talk about it and press your luck.

I did not know that. So does he get the credit/blame for the design?

Alvin Gottlieb quoted in Michael Shalhoub's "The Pinball Compendium" 1930's to 1960's:

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"A problem that became more serious as the games became more complicated was "contact bounce," which occurred when a switch was rapidly closed. It would occasionally cause the game to miscount the score or not activate a game feature. After seeing the actual bounce using a strobe light and oscilloscope, various modifications were tried to stop the bounce but I decided that a whole new relay was needed to cure the problem. The old relay was just too slow. Doc Garbark, our engineer draftsman, came up with a brilliant design using small tapered switchblades and a lightweight armature. The tapered blades would not have any strong harmonic vibration characteristics and the light armature with its attached switch actuator was very rapid in operation. Doc named the relay the "AG Relay" after yours truly and so marked my place in history. At least to me."

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So, much as we curse the things, perhaps the alternative would have been worse.

I used to work at Lieberman Enterprises in Bloomington MN back in the mid 70s early 80s.
I was the lead EM refurb tech for years when I left them in 1983.
I've literally seen hundreds of those Start, AX & BX relays.
They can be a bit finicky because they don't have much travel but once dialed in they just work and work.
If you have a game and they are causing you repeated problems the best thing you can do is to remove the bottom board and put it on a bench and work on them at eye-level. Or lay it cross-wise across the top of the game body and sit on a stool next to it. Standing and leaning into the game trying to see them can be difficult, frustrating, maddening and time consuming. In that order.
A couple of advice I can give:
1) Use the actual tool (shaped like an "L" with slots in the end) to adjust switches. Don't bend them with a screwdriver or finger tips.
2) The relay armature must be at its upper stop when off. Not hanging off of the stop by the switch blade pressure.
3) All of the blades that pass through the armature must be relaxed in a neutral position when the relay is off. They must not be impressing any pressure on the armature itself. If adjusted correctly, they will pass through the center of the white armature plastic slot.
4) When the relay is off, the pressure of the blade contacts against the normally closed ("Break") switches must be light, only just firm enough to create a reliable electrical pathway. If the blade is visually bowed between the screw mounts and the contact then that is way too much pressure. If it's naturally bowed without any pressure then it needs to be straightened. Someone before you did them wrong.
5) 90% of the problems with those AX, BX relays are caused by those blades exerting incorrect pressure against the armature. But also be certain that all the normally open ("Make") switches make contact very close to the relay armature's energized stop position. Ideally they will all close at the same time so they impart even pressure on the armature.
- An incorrectly adjusted AX / BX relay will act like the one on the right of my animation, to a degree. It needs to be like the one on the left.
Some folks consider the problem to be a weak spring. Almost always an incorrect diagnosis.

Relay.gif

Your AX relay is awaiting your apology!

But did you?

LOL

I don’t hate it, i fear it.