(Topic ID: 278928)

I got burned JJP GnR CE deposit


By mslow

3 months ago



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#151 3 months ago

meanwhile at Deeproot - CEO relaxes after getting his GNR CE confirmed

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#152 3 months ago

The only thing JJP is guilty of is not being clear about the best way to buy the game which was to order direct from them; in their defence they haven't had a hit like this so they can put this down to experience. The distribution folks should have been clear that this was a pre-order and game was not guaranteed knowing some of those guys I suspect many of them said this.

But next game, you can imagine what's going to happen nobody will waste time with distributors and JJP's website will likely take a huge dump and there will be 500 threads on how to run a website on pinside.

although as Iceman said, Spooky handled this a lot better and JJP should have done a better job.

#153 3 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I think it’s great. I’m happy for them
JJP had a conference call with their dealers at 11 am.
What they do, play online tiddly winks?

LOL Online tiddly winks

#154 3 months ago

So, the folks who ordered more than one will have those orders canceled?

Have everyone pay the 12.5K in full, no cancellations, and watch “buyers” drop like flies.

#155 3 months ago

Ah yes, First world problems, the worst of them all!

#156 3 months ago
Quoted from Breger1:

Stern 50-60 a week. So imagine JJP20-30? Maybe more once new gigs get up to speed

So....
If they sell 500CE a conservative estimate is that atleast four times that with standard and le?
This comes to 2500machines.
Which means there are no new jjp games in 2.5 years....
So jjp will face the same problem as spooky, who will you risk becoming seasonal layoffs, designers or assemblers?

#157 3 months ago

G&R was a well kept secret... not the title, but the game itself..

How many G&R have already been produced? I think that JJP will get probably around 50 a week done..

15
#158 3 months ago

This really is funny and fits pinside to a T. There was a discussion the other day how anything produced as a collector item will never be a collector item and manufactures need to stop with the “collector” edition type pins.

This discussion shows exactly what this GNR CE is.... it really is limited and desirable and for once in pinball, it really is a collector pin and more people want it than there are CEs available. This is by definition is collector edition, and sold out as designed and intended. After all, that’s the point of a true collectible.

I think people are getting hung up on the fact that demand is way higher than supply when they aren’t use to that with JJP. I also think people were counting their eggs before they had them, both distributors and consumers. I don’t think JJP is to blame unless they had told distributors how many they were getting, then changed that allocation to a lower number.

Is it possible distributors took deposits before they had an allocation? Is it possible distributors took refundable deposits incase they didn’t get as many as hoped for or maybe in hopes of getting more than allocated? Is it possible consumers pressured/guilted distributors to take a deposit for a CE before allocations were given? Is it possible distributors distributors were trying to make consumers happy and run a business before they had CEs? I think yes, there are many scenarios that may have taken place, all with good intentions.

I don’t think anybody involved with development or distribution set out to make people angry and upset. I whole heartedly believe nobody wanted to rain on this great pin and spoil it for some people. I believe the CE did exactly what it was intended to do, sell out fast and be a collector pin. Not everyone can have a CE and still have a limited or rare pin, it wouldn’t be a true CE then.

16
#159 3 months ago

I also like the idea that people with multiple orders may not get any. Hopefully that helps calm down the scalpers.

#160 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

G&R was a well kept secret... not the title, but the game itself..
How many G&R have already been produced? I think that JJP will get probably around 50 a week done..

So, that makes them as big producer as stern now?
Which way will they go? Lots of titles, selling fewer of each, or few and heavily invested titles, but need success each time?

I sure hope they can keep up this great trend with more magic, more effort and more soul to each new game.

#161 3 months ago

I'd be amazed if they are making that many a week.

#162 3 months ago
Quoted from Breger1:

Stern 50-60 a week. So imagine JJP20-30? Maybe more once new gigs get up to speed

LOL...Stern is 50-100 A DAY. I heard JJP is around 100 per week at the moment. But looking at the videos...they have room to ramp up if need be.

#163 3 months ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Are we certain that is what happened?
Distro x was promised 10ce's. sold them and was told, you are only getting five.
Is that confirmed?

I think some distros ASSUMED the amount of CE games they would receive based on previous titles. That was a mistake.

#164 3 months ago

I absolutely love the fact that JJP is only allowing one per customer. Wonder how many orders were in fact multiples?

#165 3 months ago
Quoted from mslow:

I’ve talked to 4 distributors. They’ve all confirmed allotment reduction. SHAMEFUL!

This happens if you want to buy a machine from a special limited small run.
There is more demand than they make.

#167 3 months ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

Easy fix on powder. Just re coat it purple. I’m one of those that actually prefer he LE artwork but would redo the powder coat purple.

Bc we all know AFD was purple! Looks silly along with that art with a pinball on it. Sorry but GnR art shouldn't ever include an actual pinball.

I'm on the sidelines of this entire mess bc I always wanted an LE although I'm still kind of pissed bc apparently mine won't be ready for a few weeks? Bummer.

17
#168 3 months ago

Most of us that lost the CE wouldn’t be upset if we just weren’t quick enough and lost out. It’s the fact that we thought we had one as we watched others come up available and go away before receiving notification. I could have ordered one From JJP for a while at the time I thought I had once secured.

#169 3 months ago

If they are in fact able to cancel the multiple orders, some may become available again, right? Also, when the balance of $12,500 is due, I expect to see some to pop up.

#170 3 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

If they are in fact able to cancel the multiple orders, some may become available again, right? Also, when the balance of $12,500 is due, I expect to see some to pop up.

We've seen this before. Some dealers "had a buyer drop out" then list the game well above MSRP.

#171 3 months ago

Does anyone think the optics would have looked better if JJP cancelled their own direct orders vs cutting distributors? Assuming distributors really did not over sell their previous allocation numbers.

#172 3 months ago
Quoted from adborto:

I’d lock in who is locked in. If demand is there - make more, but at a higher price.

It's like I'm in the "will jjp make more pirates" thread. They obviously don't work that way nor care to.

#173 3 months ago
Quoted from insight75:

Does anyone think the optics would have looked better if JJP cancelled their own direct orders vs cutting distributors? Assuming distributors really did not over sell their previous allocation numbers.

A certain podcaster made a facebook post that showed he was able to put in an single order for all 500 through the JJP site. This demonstrates that they really had no reasonable control on the number of spots or buying multiple spots to scalp. As I understand it more of us will get calls today to tell us we will lose our spots. I would guess some of those that bought through JJP will be cancelled, but that has yet to be seen.

10
#174 3 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

I think some distros ASSUMED the amount of CE games they would receive based on previous titles. That was a mistake.

I thought that as well but the more I think about it....I think the actual mistake is on the dealers not being more transparent about the situation. Should JJP have confirmed allocations before release? Absolutely. But even without that, it wouldn't be hard for a dealer to set expectations: "You are on the list, but we don't know how many CEs we are getting yet so there are no guarantee you will get one." This simple exchange would have helped a lot of people. Again, this is without JJP setting allocations. As a customer, that is between the dealer and JJP.

My relationship is with the dealer not JJP in this case.We can be annoyed at JJP for not firming up allocations, but in the end, I would be FAR FAR more angry with my dealer if they implied the guarantee when they didn't have the word from JJP.

We can see some of the more responsible dealers being very clear (I saw Zach not posting CEs for sale on Facebook and Kingpin games even saying it would be irresponsible for dealers to accept orders without knowing the allocation). Dealers like that seem like ones that care more about making their customers happy and not trying to make (and keep) a sale. Maybe the silver lining in this is that we can see who the better dealers really are?

I put name on the list (and deposit) on Saturday afternoon going on the rumors and my faith in Eric (and my love for GNR). I am currently in on a CE and received my invoice to pay yesterday. I can choose to pay in full now or wait until closer to shipping. I have asked when I could expect mine before I decide when to pay.

#175 3 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

LOL...Stern is 50-100 A DAY. I heard JJP is around 100 per week at the moment. But looking at the videos...they have room to ramp up if need be.

Why, it's almost as if the jjp ones must be higher quality machines if that's the case!

#176 3 months ago

So I'm guessing jack is trying to maintain his income by having negotiated that he is still the main distributor for JJP games, despite it not being his company anymore.

#177 3 months ago
Quoted from Galooch:

I thought that as well but the more I think about it....I think the actual mistake is on the dealers not being more transparent about the situation. Should JJP have confirmed allocations before release? Absolutely. But even without that, it wouldn't be hard for a dealer to set expectations: "You are on the list, but we don't know how many CEs we are getting yet so there are no guarantee you will get one." This simple exchange would have helped a lot of people. Again, this is without JJP setting allocations. As a customer, that is between the dealer and JJP.
My relationship is with the dealer not JJP in this case.We can be annoyed at JJP for not firming up allocations, but in the end, I would be FAR FAR more angry with my dealer if they implied the guarantee when they didn't have the word from JJP.
We can see some of the more responsible dealers being very clear (I saw Zach not posting CEs for sale on Facebook and Kingpin games even saying it would be irresponsible for dealers to accept orders without knowing the allocation). Dealers like that seem like ones that care more about making their customers happy and not trying to make (and keep) a sale. Maybe the silver lining in this is that we can see who the better dealers really are?
I put name on the list (and deposit) on Saturday afternoon going on the rumors and my faith in Eric (and my love for GNR). I am currently in on a CE and received my invoice to pay yesterday. I can choose to pay in full now or wait until closer to shipping. I have asked when I could expect mine before I decide when to pay.

Exactly my point. The mistake was the dealer assuming they had certain number and taking deposits without confirmation. If JJP confirmed a number like 20 and then said, sorry my bad you only get 10, that would be on JJP.

#178 3 months ago

It's just not the end of the world, get the LE and you have every bit of the game
I wanted a CE also but life is life. It's just not worth getting my panties in a wad over

Get it in your house and enjoy ... you are not missing anything.
Humans just love to bitch and moan

#179 3 months ago

And you’ll likely get if first. Who knows how long before they’re shipping CE’s? Another reason why CE’s will pop up down the track.

#180 3 months ago

Maybe they should have announced first....let a little time go by (Few weeks) and then take orders. Give JJP and distributors time to see what the demand is and plan.

#181 3 months ago
Quoted from Bud:

This really is funny and fits pinside to a T. There was a discussion the other day how anything produced as a collector item will never be a collector item and manufactures need to stop with the “collector” edition type pins.
This discussion shows exactly what this GNR CE is.... it really is limited and desirable and for once in pinball, it really is a collector pin and more people want it than there are CEs available. This is by definition is collector edition, and sold out as designed and intended. After all, that’s the point of a true collectible.
I think people are getting hung up on the fact that demand is way higher than supply when they aren’t use to that with JJP. I also think people were counting their eggs before they had them, both distributors and consumers. I don’t think JJP is to blame unless they had told distributors how many they were getting, then changed that allocation to a lower number.
Is it possible distributors took deposits before they had an allocation? Is it possible distributors took refundable deposits incase they didn’t get as many as hoped for or maybe in hopes of getting more than allocated? Is it possible consumers pressured/guilted distributors to take a deposit for a CE before allocations were given? Is it possible distributors distributors were trying to make consumers happy and run a business before they had CEs? I think yes, there are many scenarios that may have taken place, all with good intentions.
I don’t think anybody involved with development or distribution set out to make people angry and upset. I whole heartedly believe nobody wanted to rain on this great pin and spoil it for some people. I believe the CE did exactly what it was intended to do, sell out fast and be a collector pin. Not everyone can have a CE and still have a limited or rare pin, it wouldn’t be a true CE then.

All I know, a distributor was making posts on pinside about their proven history before release. They then send email, after game is announced, with 3 links to buy before option to buy was available on JJP. Email also said each link would only work until sold out. This doesn’t imply any kind of unknowns in the equation. Deposits were taken with no mention of a refund policy. Now, they don’t have any? Maybe one or two over aggressive distributors, but several making the same mistake? Looks like mostly JJP problem..
If this did actually sell out, look out for CE prices in the future. I’d say $20k will be easy for Zeppelin, if there ever is..

#182 3 months ago

Maybe JJP should have sold the CE on their website only, and everything else through the distributors.

#183 3 months ago
Quoted from jorant:

Why, it's almost as if the jjp ones must be higher quality machines if that's the case!

That that a terrible correlation. Just because one plant has more workers and more lines does not mean that they build lower quality machines. I seem to remember reading a lot of posts on here about people having POTC's show up with problems at delivery. And have you forgotten about the playfield clearcoat issues that plagued POTC and early Wonka builds? If anything, JJP has a higher chance at having quality issues as they train new workers and cut the teeth in on their new facility. I hope that isn't the case, but it is surely possible.

17
#184 3 months ago

Reminds me of this classic Seinfeld scene.

#186 3 months ago

Damn, I figured you would snag a CE for sure. That stinks.

#187 3 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Distributors should operate like regular businesses do, and not assume they are getting things, then sell spots which don’t exist to buyers.

OtOH overselling is pretty common. Airlines, hotels, concerts, etc. Anytime you know you’re going to have people not following through. The free market will not fix that on its own. Until they are incentivized to behave otherwise the problem will exist.

#188 3 months ago

Clearly I’m in the minority in these discussions. I see a lot of reseller angst here over the availability of the CE. I have never considered resale as a reason to buy a game, I buy games for a number of reason and all those reasons revolve around the overall experience of the game. My distro only got me one because I was the only one asking for it prior to reveal so my name is on the only one he has coming. If the allocation error whether it be manufactures fault or the assumptions made by the distro it’s nothing compared to the drama we have seen on many many other games(Playfield chipping, ghosting, delays, mech failures etc). If an allocation error is all the drama we get on this sick game we are all in good shape!! I am super excited about my CE, but if I was one of the unlucky ones I would just get the LE and probably be just as excited.

#189 3 months ago

The terms of the agreements between JJP and its distributors may be such that allocations are exclusively determined by JJP and/or subject to adjustment by JJP for any reason, including availability based on direct JJP orders/sales. Or maybe there are no true allocations and the agreement provides that JJP fills distributor orders as available but at the lesser distributor price. Whatever the terms of the agreements are, I don't think anyone is forced to be a distributor or to continue being a distributor - the complete terms are surely mutually beneficial and neither JJP nor distributors are operating on a charitable basis. It is also likely that there are non-disclosure provisions and other compelling reasons preventing distributors, and JJP as well, from chiming in on these details. Maybe we will never know.

What we do know is that the CE appears to have significantly more demand than pretty much everyone anticipated. That's a good thing, in my opinion. If I ordered a CE through a distributor and was later told I couldn't have it, I would want to see confirmation that the distributor actually had the game to sell, or a confirmed allocation that was later changed by JJP, before I thought of complaining about JJP.

And maybe the 5,000 limited will not sell out any time soon. Or maybe they will. Monday evening, some claimed that only a dozen or two CEs were actually sold - and many were of the belief the CE would never sell out. Nonetheless, I hope everyone gets the machine they want - be it NIB or on the secondary market.

#190 3 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

That that a terrible correlation. Just because one plant has more workers and more lines does not mean that they build lower quality machines.

You're absolutely right.... but not in this case.

I seem to remember reading a lot of posts on here about people having POTC's show up with problems at delivery. And have you forgotten about the playfield clearcoat issues that plagued POTC and early Wonka builds?

No. You mean the very same issues that have plagued even more Stern machines? Yes, how can I forget, as I continue to stroll through the playfield problem thread every few days.

Listen, let's be real here. There is a lot more that goes into these JJP machines than the most advanced Stern. I'm simply saying your comparison is an unfair one. I bet they made WAY more Dodge Omnis than Ferraris.

#191 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

Reminds me of this classic Seinfeld scene.

Without even clicking on the video, I know it's the famous "you can take a reservation, but can you... HOLD a reservation?"

#192 3 months ago
Quoted from player-one:

The terms of the agreements between JJP and its distributors may be such that allocations are exclusively determined by JJP and/or subject to adjustment by JJP for any reason, including availability based on direct JJP orders/sales. Or maybe there are no true allocations and the agreement provides that JJP fills distributor orders as available but at the lesser distributor price. Whatever the terms of the agreements are, I don't think anyone is forced to be a distributor or to continue being a distributor - the complete terms are surely mutually beneficial and neither JJP nor distributors are operating on a charitable basis. It is also likely that there are non-disclosure provisions and other compelling reasons preventing distributors, and JJP as well, from chiming in on these details. Maybe we will never know.
What we do know is that the CE appears to have significantly more demand than pretty much everyone anticipated. That's a good thing, in my opinion. If I ordered a CE through a distributor and was later told I couldn't have it, I would want to see confirmation that the distributor actually had the game to sell, or a confirmed allocation that was later changed by JJP, before I thought of complaining about JJP.
And maybe the 5,000 limited will not sell out any time soon. Or maybe they will. Monday evening, some claimed that only a dozen or two CEs were actually sold - and many were of the belief the CE would never sell out. Nonetheless, I hope everyone gets the machine they want - be it NIB or on the secondary market.

This shit show was 100% the fault of JJP.....there is no doubt in my mind JJP completely screwed their distributors by allowing all these games to be purchased directly from JJP. Theres a reason why Stern doesn't allow direct purchasing of games. You can say what u want, but the distributors and customers got screwed.

#193 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

This shit show was 100% the fault of JJP.....there is no doubt in my mind JJP completely screwed their distributors by allowing all these games to be purchased directly from JJP. Theres a reason why Stern doesn't allow direct purchasing of games. You can say what u want, but the distributors and customers got screwed.

Didn’t Stern allow direct purchases of BM66 SLE?

#194 3 months ago

got screwed out of MET le . still have my Roadcase , i may have a CE ordered ,have not heard anything yet to cancel but with my luck a no brainer i will be cut.
At that point i am out . No LE no SE no Future new JJP period . A shame Really that Distro's sell but then take back said sale due to not having the Game for sale in the first place.

57
#195 3 months ago

Well I was informed last night that I lost my CE, it honestly almost made me laugh as I have literally had nothing but bad news in my life for the last 2 years. If losing my CE is the worst thing that happens to me this month I will count my blessing as I have my normal every 8 week brain MRI coming up in 2 weeks, so I hold my breath again like I always do. Congrats to everyone who got a CE, I probably didn’t need to be spending that kind of money on a pinball machine anyways.

#196 3 months ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Well I was informed last night that I lost my CE, it honestly almost made me laugh as I have literally had nothing but bad news in my life for the last 2 years. If losing my CE is the worst thing that happens to me this month I will count my blessing as I have my normal every 8 week brain MRI coming up in 2 weeks, so I hold my breath again like I always do. Congrats to everyone who got a CE, I probably didn’t need to be spending that kind of money on a pinball machine anyways.

Sorry man....did u get the same question "Would u like to change your order to an LE"? After this shit show I'm out on NIB JJP games...who knows maybe they saved us from more play field issues...gotta be silver lining in there somewhere

#197 3 months ago

Has JJP contacted anyone cancelling a direct order from their website?

#198 3 months ago
Quoted from DJNOEL30:

Didn’t Stern allow direct purchases of BM66 SLE?

No idea as I didn't buy a BM66 SLE ... but in general u can't buy games direct from Stern. They know how to take care of their distribution channel.

#199 3 months ago

It really wouldn't surprise me if JJP increased the CE count by another couple of hundred given the demand. This isn't POTC, they are still very much in the "can get parts" mode and leaving millions on the table doesn't seem very smart business wise. I don't think increasing CE count from 500 to say 750 is going to hurt anything or anyone... Thoughts?

Jeff

#200 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

It really wouldn't surprise me if JJP increased the CE count by another couple of hundred given the demand. This isn't POTC, they are still very much in the "can get parts" mode and leaving millions on the table doesn't seem very smart business wise. I don't think increasing CE count from 500 to say 750 is going to hurt anything or anyone... Thoughts?
Jeff

I doubt they do that. I think it’s gonna end up as a lesson learned from unexpected success. Next release they will give their distribution network solid numbers before opening up the flood gates.

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