(Topic ID: 18370)
Conyers, GA
Quoted from Frax:We're all losing. Money. A lot of it.
Well if trends continue we're making money slowly. That's if we ever decide to sell!
Simple solution. Speak with your wallet by not buying NIB games. Last one I bought was Tron:LE and I don't plan on buying anymore anytime soon at these prices. That is the only way things will change.
Quoted from markmon:And I shouldn't be ashamed of being able to afford 20 expensive pins either It's not that people are just less fortunate. A few years ago I was barely getting by managing a McDonalds for $20k a year. I worked 80 hours a week for several years to get to where I am at now. People make their lives into what they want.
Good for you Mark. 
Quoted from Frax:It's not like I'm trying to buy a MM. I just want something that smells like varnish and clearcoat, instead of something that smells like rat piss.
LOL! I agree, I'd love something new, just to see what its like. That stanky ol piss/mildew smell is OK but, man a new one must be nice.
I would bet that almost anyone here could acquire the pin(s) of their dreams with enough patience and commitment. You can't expect instant results. Sure it's easier if you have a good income to just go out and get an instant killer collection in a box, but not necessary. I make a modest living in very unimpressive line of work. I got 1-2 games a year by cutting corners everywhere I could (no cable tv, no cell phone, rusty beater vehicles, less going out, fewer vacations, selling other collectibles) and by learning how to fix up games and by making connections.
So explain to me again how more supply causes the prices to go up? It's amazing to read these comments and see how few people understand basic economics and supply and demand. The prices are going up because there are a lot more collectors with a lot more money joining the hobby. More parts are available to rebuild the machines so people are restoring and putting money into them and new collectors want something nice to put in the home. (think muscle cars and how the cycle that hobby went through). Apparrently there still are not enough machines to satiate the demand but it looks like the market is trying to rebalance with the new entrants into the market place. Get used to the new pin pricing, look around all commodities, goods and services are going up and have been going up. Everything costs more. Pins aren't cheap to make and everything you put in them costs more. Stern, JJP and others must be doing something right, they seem to be selling everything the can build and even what they plan to build. I recommend some take some time away from the forum and google Adam Smith, Invisibile hand, pricing mechanism and allocation of scarce resources in a free economy.
Quoted from pinbill_blocked:The pros you get for around 4k are not the complete game. It's like buying a TZ without the mini playfield and gumball machine. It's bad enough the software is never finished.
At least JJ's LE is just cosmetic.
I think many people are jumping on a lot of these new games because they're afraid of missing out next BBB. I just wonder how long this will last. Is the NIB market that big?
The next BBB is Predator.
Quoted from bigdaddy07:I'll tell you what it is....Greeeeeeeeeeeedd!
Try capitalism. I don't get you guys with all this greed nonsense.
Quoted from Firebaall:Anyday of the week, I'd like to go back to a point in time where a pop in the nose was the proper response to douchebaggery.
» YouTube video
Quoted from Billmelater:So explain to me again how more supply causes the prices to go up? It's amazing to read these comments and see how few people understand basic economics and supply and demand. The prices are going up because there are a lot more collectors with a lot more money joining the hobby. More parts are available to rebuild the machines so people are restoring and putting money into them and new collectors want something nice to put in the home. (think muscle cars and how the cycle that hobby went through). Apparrently there still are not enough machines to satiate the demand but it looks like the market is trying to rebalance with the new entrants into the market place. Get used to the new pin pricing, look around all commodities, goods and services are going up and have been going up. Everything costs more. Pins aren't cheap to make and everything you put in them costs more. Stern, JJP and others must be doing something right, they seem to be selling everything the can build and even what they plan to build. I recommend some take some time away from the forum and google Adam Smith, Invisibile hand, pricing mechanism and allocation of scarce resources in a free economy.
I agree with this. It was interesting to see JPop comment on the pinball cycles too, and he indicated that we are clearly on an "up" cycle right now.
Quoted from mnpinball:The next BBB is Predator.
A high dollar game with a nice art package that is an average player at best? I have higher hopes for Predator than that. 
Quoted from Billmelater:Try capitalism. I don't get you guys with all this greed nonsense.
Dude, I guess your not familiar with TZ??? My comment was a simple play off the buy in button, not to be taken serious at all. This is a pinball forum after all.
Quoted from Billmelater:Try capitalism. I don't get you guys with all this greed nonsense.
capitalism is what made America strong and free and I hope we go back to it in November!!
It also inspires innovation and with competition lower pin Prices and better products.
Quoted from scooter:capitalism is what made America strong and free and I hope we go back to it in November!!
It also inspires innovation and with competition lower pin Prices and better products.
+1
Romney 2012!!! I bagged groceries for his wife one time at my job.
I gave Billmelater a thumbs up on his earlier post because I totally agree with what he wrote about basic economics and capitalism. But this is what ruins great forums, when you guys start in with the political posts & rants. Please take it elsewhere.
Quoted from pinbill_blocked:I think modern MSRP's are going to kill the entire newer pinball industry as they're pricing more and more people out of the market.
Post edited by gweempose : Thread title fixed.
I think (fill in the blank) is going to kill the entire (fill in the blank) industry as they're pricing people out of the market.
- Rolex
- Ferrari
- Grey Goose
- Rolls Royce
etc.. therefore those car, watch, vodka manufacturers should stop what they are doing and instead make affordable products that a retired person can easily afford.
and while we're at it, Hollywood should stop making movies that are going to cost me $12/ticket and Broadway should enforce a strict $40/ticket ($30 for seniors) price policy etc. etc..
Quoted from vulture:I gave Billmelater a thumbs up on his earlier post because I totally agree with what he wrote about basic economics and capitalism. But this is what ruins great forums, when you guys start in with the political posts & rants. Please take it elsewhere.
I agree, but I do wish people would stop saying things like it is "greed" that is making pins cost what they cost. It's like a catch phrase from the OWS movement, and the "99 percent" BS. The greed comment is what started that discussion.
Quoted from pinbill_blocked:I can't afford this hobby anymore. These prices are ridiculous.
Owning games is not a requirement of the hobby. Play on location.
Quoted from plowpusher:Pinball (the sport of KINGS)
I agree
Quoted from LTG:Any hobby that gets popular will see prices increase.
You just have to get more creative, or find a place where you are happy with it.
Too many years ago I collected German tin toys, from the early 1900's. At the beginning you could have a nice collection, near the end most people couldn't afford one piece.
Buy games you like. Buy games and fix them up and roll them over to buy games you can't afford.
Many ways to stay in a hobby, even if it gets crazy.
Especially don't lose site of what you really enjoy and focus on that.
LTG
great advice. i have an op friend who got an adams family a few weeks ago from another op for 1,500.
he needed some quick cash and offered it up. my point,keep your ear to the ground. there are always deals out there. the more you look and the more you network the more good deals you will find.
Quoted from Frax:Some guys, like me, are just trying to cobble together enough money to buy *one* NIB pin. It's not like I'm trying to buy a MM. I just want something that smells like varnish and clearcoat, instead of something that smells like rat piss.
I want to point out that just because a pin is 20 years old doesn't mean that it will smell bad or not be nice. Of my collection, I have 12 some williams pins that are all 20+ years old. These are all in amazing shape. People come by my place that don't know pinball and cannot tell what are the new pins vs the old ones. If you spend a lot of time making your pins nice, they will be nice. You don't need to be a professional restorer to be able to turn a few screws, remove some ramps, and *clean*. The better pins in my collection were all bought in rough shape and fixed up by me.
There's also nothing wrong with buying pins in the ~$2k range such as Demolotion man, Johnny Mnemonic, etc. These are some fun games. Buy a little low, clean and fix things up, sell a little higher, put that cash into something a little more expensive, repeat.
My 20 year old DE SW smells better than I do. 
Quoted from RobT:I agree, but I do wish people would stop saying things like it is "greed" that is making pins cost what they cost. It's like a catch phrase from the OWS movement, and the "99 percent" BS. The greed comment is what started that discussion.
You guys need to lighten up a bit. I made the greeeeeed (you know like in AF and TZ, thus the multiple e's) comment earlier as a way to throw in a lighthearted pinball quote. It was not meant to pit one social class against another, and was taken way out of context of what I meant by it. Wow!
Quoted from phishrace:Owning games is not a requirement of the hobby. Play on location.
Lo...ca.....what? 
Quoted from vislor:I actually think BHZA will be the creme-de-la-creme when JPop gets finished with it.
We'll all be dying of Fukushima cancer by then...I gotta enjoy my pinballin' NOW!
Quoted from Rarehero:We'll all be dying of Fukushima cancer by then
Uhhhh.....that's stupid......
Quoted from iceman44:Uhhhh.....that's stupid......
Yeah, radioactivity is perfectly safe. Here, have a nice juicy plutonium sammich *rolls eyes* ...and here we go...OFF TOPIC lol
Quoted from Rarehero:Lo...ca.....what?
Normally these posts come from someone in Bumblescum Kentucky, where there are no location games. He lives near 207 locations with 392 games. No excuses. Stop with the whining.
Quoted from iceman44:Can we at least set the bar on pin side that you have to at least be able to "fog a mirror" or be smarter than "a bag of rocks" to post....geez o pete
OK, seriously...you're questioning my I.Q. because I made a comment alluding to fact that the uncontrolled reactor meltdowns & unstable fuel pools at the destroyed nuclear power plants in Fukushima, Japan will increase worldwide cancer rates in the coming years? If you have factual information to discredit the effect Fukushima's radiation will have on the environment and food supply, please - share this amazing science and prove my low I.Q. to everyone.
In any case - I was merely being a misanthropic cynic to illustrate my opinion that the Jpop/Bheck game won't be finished for a LONG time.
Try to stay healthy, my friends.
Quoted from Rarehero:Try to stay healthy, my friends.
No...its "stay thirsty my friends".... 
Quoted from iceman44:Uhhhh.....that's stupid.....
Tell that to my sixth toe! 
Seeing some of the huge debris wash up on our coast is a bit unnerving Ice.
I seem to not want to surf as much anymore.
Who knows how bad the situation REALLY is over there, or what's possibly lurking in the Pacific.
Can we say "Chernobyl 2.0" kiddies? 
Quoted from NimblePin:Tell that to my sixth toe!
Seeing some of the huge debris wash up on our coast is a bit unnerving Ice.
I seem to not want to surf as much anymore.
Who knows how bad the situation REALLY is over there.
Quoted from Frax:We're all losing. Money. A lot of it.
Hahaha...no truer words have been spoken.....
Quoted from NimblePin:Who knows how bad the situation REALLY is over there, or what's possibly lurking in the Pacific.
Can we say "Chernobyl 2.0" kiddies?
Thank goodness we only have to deal with tar and seaweed on the gulf coast NP! Radioactive waste washing up in Cali shores...geesh....Cali is sounding no bueno...Tejas is muy bueno
Quoted from bigdaddy07:You guys need to lighten up a bit. I made the greeeeeed (you know like in AF and TZ, thus the multiple e's) comment earlier as a way to throw in a lighthearted pinball quote. It was not meant to pit one social class against another, and was taken way out of context of what I meant by it. Wow!
Quoted from bigdaddy07:You guys need to lighten up a bit. I made the greeeeeed (you know like in AF and TZ, thus the multiple e's) comment earlier as a way to throw in a lighthearted pinball quote. It was not meant to pit one social class against another, and was taken way out of context of what I meant by it. Wow!
Bah, now I feel stupid. Sorry for missing the context.
Quoted from pinbill_blocked:The pros you get for around 4k are not the complete game. It's like buying a TZ without the mini playfield and gumball machine. It's bad enough the software is never finished.
At least JJ's LE is just cosmetic.
I think many people are jumping on a lot of these new games because they're afraid of missing out next BBB. I just wonder how long this will last. Is the NIB market that big?
The differences between the Pros and LEs are so overblown. I've played both of TF, TRON and ACDC and I think the gameplay is actually better on the pro for TF and ACDC, and almost no different on TRON.
The gameplay difference is similar in magnitude to TAF Gold, i.e. the additional content feels tacked on.
I think if people were less concerned with keeping up with the Joneses they would probably enjoy a pro more, since they would have more money left over to do a few mod projects like we're seeing on TRON.
Quoted from jonnyo:the additional content feels tacked on.
Especially for TFLE where the upper playfields suck. I wish designers would go all out with a fully functional upper playfield like in White Water or just stick with single level.
Quoted from phishrace:Normally these posts come from someone in Bumblescum Kentucky,
hey, that's my home town...
Brisbane
Has anyone noticed that the reason this interest in NIB pins has come about is because AC/DC was at a reasonable price. You have a whole bunch of people on this tread trying to sound like they know something about economics. The new way of thinking (and best for everyone) is to make a product as financially reachable to the common man as you can, that way you will be selling to 1m rather than 1000. Hell, what am I thinking this isn’t new, this is actually the rule, and has been for ever.
mick, the pin industry has become a boutique market before our eyes whether we want to admit it or not.
You may have a point there. Man it used to be such a simple pleasure for everyone with some spare change in their pocket. I hate to see it come to a point where only the kids with rich fathers or uncles know what a pinball is. “After a jaunt around the bay in daddy’s yacht we retired to the games room and had a round of pinball"
Actually, AC/DC saw a substantial price increase over Tron that pissed a lot of people off. I was waiting a long time for it, heard the price and immediately ruled it out. However, after my first few plays (on a premium, I dislike the pro) I went and ordered one.
AC/DC is selling because it's badass, it's not cheap.
Quoted from mickthepin:Has anyone noticed that the reason this interest in NIB pins has come about is because AC/DC was at a reasonable price.
Hold on, prices of NIB in the 90s, 20 years ago were $3,500-$4,500 for quality b/w titles, new. Stern doesn’t make the same quality, or invest in the same materials. Forget about that for a sec, as we call agree we don’t need another Stern quality discussion, but if you figure on a company making b/w like product, with new innovation, and new parts, 20 years later, does $7,000 really seem like an unfair inflation?
What was the average car selling for 20 years ago, and what is that selling for now? I know there was more of a market for machines back then, but that doesn’t change the associated costs in making machines.
People in pinball are cheap, we all are, we want deals, and to be able to sell high. This causes many to tend to think that we should be stuck in some sort of standstill of time.
Look around people, Pinside is the only example you need. Look at the explosion here in the last 6 months alone? Massive amounts of people, new people, all drooling over new machines. Supply and demand at it’s finest.
You already have the best of both worlds essentially with a hobby where you can still see your return from what you paid, and in most cases more. On top of that, you want lots of companies making new machines AND for the prices to be fixed?
Get a grip...
Purley
Quoted from bigdaddy07:You guys need to lighten up a bit. I made the greeeeeed (you know like in AF and TZ, thus the multiple e's) comment earlier as a way to throw in a lighthearted pinball quote. It was not meant to pit one social class against another, and was taken way out of context of what I meant by it. Wow!
I got it right away and thought it was funny. Good pinball humor. Love TAF.
Quoted from jalpert:AC/DC is selling because it's badass, it's not cheap.
I think you will find AC/DC's success is entirely due to my suggestion, on this web site, to have a bell that you ring in the middle of the playfield.
Just taking the piss, but look it up, I totally predicted that sh*t
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