I think it is the socket. Local metallica had LED fall out of sockets as well. Seems the sockets may be a pinch off what some of the others are. I'm saying this because those LEDs were switched to another game and haven't fallen out.

Tim has never posted anything negative about Stern that I've ever seen. Looking through his brief posting history, the quote below from '09 pretty much sums up his thoughts on Stern's:

"We began to shift our product mix because of popular demand. We bought one of every new Stern pinball the day it came out. (If more operators would do this, the industry would not be so sick right now) To do this, we had to displace 20 to 30 older machines. I hated to do it, and one of the main reasons we are moving to a new space is so we can bring back the old stuff in the
200 or so new spaces. Even if we wanted to, we could only buy 2 to 3 new pinballs a year. It would take 75 to 100 years to push this many oldies aside. I also see nothing wrong with having the nice new Stern titles in the front row. It gererates interest in the old stuff and keeps the youngsters that used to drift out."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/86b6548eee0175c8

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=ssCGGBkAAAAaweUOIsT1XO1_Yt3vC1FXErsrBrnbA_AZ7Ygl0aB8jw

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=F7yiHxAAAAAusSnzUGJMJBQp2OeqZVWH

Every time I go to the PHOF, I play the FGY there. It's always working and in remarkably good shape considering how many times it's been played. If you go there, I definitely recommend playing it.

Did they get cold in the winters?

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

All Stern SAM games have a standard setting for lost ball recovery. How that setting is set determines what the game does when a ball gets stuck. Default is to never add another ball. Keep searching. If set to yes, it will put another ball in shooter lane after a certain number of ball searches. Is that a sufficient migration?

Mine too, but then BSD ball times are very short - it's a bit of a drain monster. 20000 plays on a BSD = 5000 plays on a LOTR ?

Yep, 'zacty the way I like it.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Back in the in the '90's I'd buy NIB Wiliams/Ballys all the time. To date, I've probably owned about 40-45 NIB. Bear in mind I'm a private owner, NOT an operator. Out of those I've purchased, I've had only 1 issue-an IJ that just made me miserable. It was almost certainly a 'Friday' machine. The modern-era Sterns simply seem cheap to me and the fact that some of them have blatant quality issues is a huge turn off. I've said this before-if Stern demands the $$ they do (and they get it) for their new machines, they should pay a bit more attention to their quality. To be fair though, I understand that they have very decent customer service.

Doc

Well I can tell you the Williams/Ballys I have owned in the home environment during the last 6 years have required much more maintenance then newer Sterns I have owned. Some of the boards on Williams run pretty damn hot requiring work as time goes by. That may be due to age but that is my experience. I don't really buy into the superiority of Williams/Bally that some swear by. That said, I do feel Stern can and should improve their quality control. As always to each their own.

I bet you could find the answer to that question in your AC/DC manual. Why don't you take a look and let us know what you find?

Dude, they are 20 years old and spent countless hours burning in and being abused on location. If you left a Stern on for 20,000 hrs it would have some issues too. From what I have seen, Stern's board set is pretty solid. Still, 20 years of advanced tech should produce a reliable board set. The real issue is the parts on the playfield that are not built to last. Replacing metal parts with plastic is bad news, because as we all know plastic gets brittle over time. Cheaper wood and less clear on the playfield means faster wear. For a long time there was crappy printing processes and grainy photoshop everywhere on Sterns and the art around the flipper buttons wear much quicker. I'm just glad they are taking some steps (back?) in the right direction for whatever reason. Hopefully they can keep it up.

I agree for sure that's why I specified about the age. But all I really care about is how much effort a pin takes in the line up now not the age of each pin. That is short sighted I know but it's the truth of the matter for me.

To be honest I like the artwork on some newer Stern releases but the area I feel they could improve upon the most is getting the shooter lane cut out 100% smooth and cleared correctly. They seem to have many issues getting that right consistently. For what we are paying for NIBs from them an extra coat of clear and #44 sockets are not too much to ask IMO.

In their defense they did put metal ramps and habit trails in Metallica. So it looks like they are stepping up a bit.

Sounds like you have too!

Yes, they did raise the bar on Metallica. It impressed me enough to buy one. Still a lot of plastic where there should be metal. For example, those lamp sockets for the inserts wont last. I really want to see them keep raising the bar.

Make sure you bring knee pads...

^THIS^

Whip his a** next time Neo!

Yep, cheap plastics, cheap wood, less clear.....in a HUO environment I think cheap can work

Still need to get better....

No, I have a CV and was having the same issue. I had to push the metal tabs of the socket closer so the 555 bulb would not fall out and yes it is an incandescent bulb. 555 are not a good idea on playfield GI due to vibration especially near slingshots. The twist in 47/44 bulbs are the way too go IMHO.

Note, all pinball machines break. Anything with moving parts will eventually break. Even the great and powerful almighty, highest build and parts quality WoZ has mechanical parts breaking.

I'll never buy a new Stern machine.

I get the impression that they couldn't care less about quality.

I was there in the mid 90s and I wouldn't call it strong. However there was plenty of documented B/W problems on rout. Here are just a few from my memory. These are issues that came up on almost all routed games.

Shadow: Broken brick target
Judge Dread: Planet magnet
Shadow: Broken phurbas on ramps
Twilight Zone: Too many problems to list for TZ, they did terrible on rout
Who Dunnit: Slot machine unit
Monster Bash: Phanton flip issues
Monster Bash: Frank table doesn't drop
Monster Bash: Peeling cabinet decals around legs
Dracula: Mist ball issues
Indiana Jones: POA mini playfield
Medieval Madness: Broken plastic moat and trolls

These are just a few, I could list plenty more but hopefully people will take off those rose colored Bally glasses and realize it's pinball and pinball machines break.

Pappy

I agree. Those Gottliebs were tough. They were also real easy to work on. Doing a playfield swap on a Gottlieb is so easy. All the parts on the bottom of the playfield are marked.

Pappy

WOW that's amazing. Only one issue out of 40-45 games.

Just curious about what issues you have had with all the Sterns you have purchased?

pappy

Just curious about what issues you have had with all the Sterns you have purchased?
pappy

Ill chime in... My problem isn't so much with reliability it's more with overall quality
IE cheap playfield toys/an overall feeling and look of cheapness IMHO

The pic below illustrates my point (Avatar playfield)

image.jpg

what character is that inside the coffin that looks like a cheap mattel toy?

I played the Hulk the other day and I was really surprised at how cheaply made it was. Ramps bending under the weight of the ball, wafer thin plastics, balls getting stuck everywhere. How do the get so much for these?

Yes they do. Please try not to generalize so much.

Easily the most important question I ask when considering a new location game is is it fun? Just like when I buy games for personal use. Am I doing it wrong?

While ball times are a consideration, when I will make my money back never is. No two locations are alike and no two games are alike. Predicting when they break even is a guestimate at best.

Bullshit. If all the operators in your area suck, you should either move or put your games out there. Not all operators suck. Bagging on operators in general here adds nothing to the conversation.

HA! OK like that's a real option.

Yeah, you clipped the end of that.

I put my home games out on location. You?

I wish the Van Dyke Fun Center here in Michigan was still around.

They basically bought new machines and threw them on the wall to fend for themselves. Until they closed, their lineup consisted of all of the modern Stern machines along with a few BW games. They would do the absolute minimum to keep them playing and I mean minimum.

Once they got a new game, it would get played really hard for a 6 months and moved down the line.

To compare what the BW games that were 20 years old compared to the 5 year old Stern machines wouldn't be fair. Basically, the Stern machines self destructed. The POTC ship fell off within the first 18 months and the remaining bent arm put a valley right into the playfield. The IJ4 actually formed a version of Devil's Tower around the magnet in front of the ark. The LOTR magnet was smoked and the sniper door on the 24 was hanging off to the side.

As for the few BW machines, none of them had GI. They had switch errors. But overall, the playfields, plastics, toys, cabinets and metal held up through the years.

Again, I own HUO Stern games, but to compare the build quality across the two is silly.

I doubt those ops are buying NIB games though.

Yes they do, else they wouldn't have stopped buying games the past decade. Sure there are many factors to it, and it may be a chicken - egg type of situation. I've spoken with several operators that simply quit buying new games because they got fed up with new games dissappointing them again and again. Part of that had to do with the lack of quality (and fun) and the technical support the games require. That comes at a costs and for them it didn't make sense to keep buying games that didn't make money, or the money they made was spent on a technician to keep it running.

Isn't it odd that this discussion is actually already going on for over a decade? Things have changed at Stern, especially since the new investor stepped in, but the one thing apparently overlooked seems to be quality control (to get back on topic).

I am an operator. Stern quality has been just fine for me.

If you want, you can interview me for your magazine and I can tell you all about Stern quality. Just say the word. I'd be happy to do it. Maybe you could devote a whole issue to Stern?

I won't buy this guys rag because he is so full of it when it comes to Stern.

Neither will I. Ironic that his magazine depends on Stern buyers, yet he's a hater. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Yes, and no. In terms of codespace I bet they could handle it, but honestly its complex to manage something like that. Pinball machines are firmware, and last I checked they are all written in assembly (WOZ might be an exception - I don't know how that architecture works). It might be quite challenging to write a ball-search routine that does trough analysis in addition to balls-in-play, especially when it seems like there are a lot of schedule challenges at Stern just to get the *rules* of the game ready for ship-time.

Writing software is an art, and as such its hard to get it written and running all the time and bug-free the first time or all the time to ship. That's why you get software updates *after* the game ships - the developer didn't have enough time to complete everything in it and find all the bugs or implement all the features. This is actually a fairly common practice in the software development industry right now, and I'm glad Stern is doing it. It reduces the cost ultimately to you, the consumer, allowing you to get your product earlier. You can't field-fix hardware easily - software, you can.

Note: An excellent commentary on this is listening to developer interviews with Clay on the TOP Podcast; Keith Johnson's in particular on how WOF went down.

Wait a min. In another thread you said you "know" an operator and you spoke to him regarding how to fix something incredibly basic and now you are an operator?

Color me confused

Physical locks are coupled with software locks. How you handle that is in the event a ball comes out of the physical lock for any reason the software would register (in woz case via optos in the lock) that a ball is missing so when multiball starts it kicks a ball out of the trough for your 3 ball multiball. However there isn't anything you can do to force a single ball drain should a ball sneak out of a lock on an old game.

Settle down Gary : ))