(Topic ID: 112552)

I am seeking unhappy buyer advice. Please help!


By Golgotha

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by KillerDragon
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There are 190 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
#1 5 years ago

I recently acquired a few "BARn Find" pinball machines that were in a bar here in AZ. Let me tell you my situation. Addams Family was made in 1992. We are almost in 2015. So the game has been around for approx. 23 years. The bar was closed by the owners family when he passed away unexpectedly. The games that were in there sat untouched for 15-16 years since the family also owned the building. The game was completely stock with no mods. The rubbers were in bad shape, but the game looked very nice with minimal wear.
Here is what I did to the game.
Replaced the rubbers.
Cleaned the playfield.
Added a remote battery module.
Added the Color DMD display.
Added the Uncle Fester lighted mod.
Added the Bear Ramp lighted mod.
Added the glass doorknob mod.
Added the Addams Family Gold chips.
Added cabinet protectors.
Included New Manual and Schematic.

I have sold a few pins through Pinside over the years. I have never had any issues in the past. I sold the game to a guy in Canada. I had sold a Buccaneer a few years ago and had no issues selling it to a nice guy in Canada.

I had the game listed at $6100 originally and then reduced it to $5500 because I needed my garage back for other projects that were ramping up. The game sold for $5500. I had turned down two offers of $5000. The buyer first offered $4700 then $5100 and then finally accepted my price of $5500. We spoke on the phone and I asked if the buyer if he had an iphone or ipad because I said I could better show him the game. I have wifi at home so we could have used facetime or Skype. He declined my offer.

Since this was his first pinball purchase, I assisted with shipping and contacted NAVL and helped him through the process. I took photos of the NAVL guys preparing it for shipping. The game played great.
He now contends that he was deceived and wants his $5500 plus his freight fees refunded. I am at a complete loss. I never said the game was HUO. He said the game was abused and "had straw dirt and sand inside the box". I said I would refund his purchase price, however I would not refund any of his shipping fees. It was his responsibility to be comfortable with the purchase. I offered more he declined.

He then says that he wants to return it because he found the "perfect" Addams Family for $5995 at Pinball Universe. I looked at the game online and the cabinet looks like new decals were applied and the cabinet looks very nice. However it does NOT have a single upgrade that mine had. I tried to explain to the buyer that the games are not the same because of the upgrades that mine has that the other does not. I do not think he really knows anything about pinball in general and specifically this game and its mods. I explain that he is willing to pay $500 more for a game that has $880 (my cost) in upgrades and that includes nothing for installation.

The game traveled almost 2500 miles. That could account for some level of dust maybe, but I doubt even this because NAVL are amazing and I have pictures of them preparing it for shipment. I called NAVL and there are no notes in the NAVL file regarding any issues at time of delivery. He could have refused delivery and/or called NAVL but never did. The game was delivered on Dec 3rd.

The game played perfectly and booted with no errors. He now says it has flipper errors and that the game "makes a noise and thinks the power supply might need replacing"

He now threatens suing me. In the buyers defense (odd I know) he sent me pictures of one thing that I completely forgot. I remembered that the thing hand needed to be cleaned. I added the Thing box upgrade decals and totally forgot to clean the hand and inside the thing box. I would be more than happy to send a bottle of fantastic and some paper towels, but really. Sorry some pictures are rotated. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Bally Addams Family.JPG Bear-Ramp.JPG Cabinet1.JPG Cabinet2.JPG Color DMD w Game chip upgrade.JPG Head1.JPG Head2.JPG IMG_2875.JPG Playfield.JPG Shooter-Mod.jpg Thing Box.jpg Uncle-Fester2.JPG Ship1.JPG Ship2.JPG Ship3.JPG Ship4.JPG
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#2 5 years ago

I don't know man. You aren't a retailer, right? Just a private sale?

He's bluffing with the lawsuit threats. In reality, just ignore this and it will probably go away. The guy is being unreasonable. The longer you engage this idiot the more emboldened he'll get. Your best course of action is probably to stop responding to his emails.

#3 5 years ago

I agree with Levi. This was a private sale. Let the man huff and puff. You now have pictures that the buyer received the game and it is the game that you were selling.

Tell the buyer that "All sales are final". If he wants a refund of any kind, he can send you back the game via NAVL and you will then refund his machine cost (not shipping) minus a 30% restocking fee. I'm pretty confident he will say no and then you can go about your life and forget this guy with buyer's remorse.

That's my opinion anyway.

Marcus

#4 5 years ago

Mods are of no significance. You chose to install them. Buyers don't have to pay "extra" for your choices.

It is the buyer's responsibility to request enough information (like detailed pictures) to be satisfied with their purchase before paying. After that, it is their affair what they do with their game.

I suggest the buyer sell the game and apply the money toward the better game and fill out his 'Lesson Learned' worksheet.

#5 5 years ago

Buyer's remorse. It's his issue now. If he wants to, he can sell it and buy a 'better' one.

I didn't even know Pinball Universe was still around. Their website looks like it did in 1995...

#6 5 years ago

I recently bought a machine from a reputable seller who assured me the game was 100%. When I got the machine, there was slight damage from the shipping, and some problems with it. (Dead optos, fried GI connectors, etc.). I knew when I bought the game long distance that I was taking a risk and that it might not arrive the way it was sent. That's what happens when you ship something with 3000 parts a long distance. My seller helped me out with getting it up and running, offering me $200 in parts to get it back where it should be, and all was resolved to my satisfaction.

What you're dealing with sounds like a noob who doesn't realize all the things that can go wrong with shipping a pin. So if there's something that could be construed as pre-existing, that's on you, and you should help make it right somehow. The intermittent flipper issue is probably just a busted solder joint or bad connection due to all the jostling of the shipping. Sounds like you're in a situation with someone who's just trying to get a cheaper machine. I think you're golden, and you have the law on your side. Buyer beware is the law of the land on something that has no written or implied warranty.

#7 5 years ago

Sounds like he found a better looking TAF and decided to take it out on you. It happens, but that isn't your fault. From your pics, it looks like a nice pin and the upgrades are some of the best out there. I say call his bluff and let him threaten to sue. I agree with CrazyLevi on this one. Good luck and don't lose sleep over it.

#8 5 years ago

Private sale should be As is, Where-is, and All Sales Final. Unless of course the item was grossly misrepresented which does not seem to be the case here.

#9 5 years ago

Despite his opinions,he agreed to buy sight unseen and that is the risk he took not you.
If you were to agree on taking it back,there is no guarantee you will get it back in the same condition you sent it in either. Sounds like he just wanted you to send it so he could have a look then decide.
Unfortunately for him that's not how it works. Block all emails and calls from him and forget about it.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

this was his first pinball purchase

You've said it all. Buyer's remorse, he needs to learn what to expect and will hopefully look at his next machine before buying...

#11 5 years ago

Your not Walmart. Can not return because you had a change of mind. As long as you feel good from your end than don't sweat it.

#12 5 years ago

The funny thing is this is a decent enough Addams Family, and he'd likely have little to no trouble recouping all his money (maybe less shipping) on a local sale in Canada.

This is not your problem OP. All this idiocy about mods, some other game he found blahblahblah...not your problem. You made a HUGE mistake initially agreeing to accept the game back less shipping - probably added a week or so of nonsense from this guy. But when he realized you were receptive he got greedy.

Send him a terse, SHORT email stating that you never agreed to take the game back if he didn't like it, that you consider the sale final and that's that. There will be some angry emails and maybe some phone calls (which you should ignore and of course block if possible) and he'll go away.

#13 5 years ago

Buyers remorse here. He isn't being even the slightest bit reasonable and is shifting responsibility 100% onto you, despite your efforts to communicate prior to shipment. This is a clear signal that he was either offered one for significantly less afterward (somewhat likely) or that he simply changed his mind about spending that much (very likely).

Did you take video of the machine prior to shipment?

Sorry you're having so much trouble. This is why I'll never ship a game and why I will always check out games in person, as will anyone buying any games from me. So much can happen between point A & B that it simply isn't worth it in my eyes.

#14 5 years ago

I live in a remote part of Canada and have to buy pins sight unseen and get them shipped based on pictures. If the machine plays OK when it gets here, any other unexpected fixes at that point might be disappointing, but it's a cost of doing business. I don't expect to get into shipping things back and forth. Once it gets here, that's it, I'm on my own.

I would ask for money back if the thing doesn't turn on or was unplayable.

Hell, I just got a NIB Star Trek Pro with a severe issue 50 games in. Stuff happens, I'm not shipping it back.

#15 5 years ago

Here are the pictures he sent with his complaint email. Game had clean boot at startup. As I stated the thing hand was my bad and I totally missed that. Nothing a squirt of Windex and a paper towel couldn't fix.

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#16 5 years ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

He then says that he wants to return it because he found the "perfect" Addams Family for $5995 at Pinball Universe.

And he hasn't seen that one in person either ?

LTG : )™

#17 5 years ago

What exactly is he complaining about in half of those pictures? The flipper rubbers are a little dirty? The switch has a diode? TAF has ramps?

#18 5 years ago

Just needs a little cleaning, no big deal !. This guy is whining about nothing, ignore him and he will go away.

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

I sold the game to a guy in Canada.

He would have paid sales tax when it entered the country as well. There's no getting that back.

#20 5 years ago

Personally, I prefer the remote battery holder to use the clips because it is easier to reset for new owners. He said that looked cheap. Some people you just can't please. I never stated that I took the playfield components to board level. You can see that the playfield has minimal wear.

#21 5 years ago

The other red flag I over looked was that he joined Pinside a few days before contacting me. I looked at it as a cool way to get a pinball machine to a newbie and welcome to the hobby. Lessons learned. I am concerned because in his email today he stated ...

"So I don't have choice to sue you in court to be compensate for this abuse. So if I don't have news from you today and you didn't take back the pin with all the fees, it mean 5500$ for the machine and 1400$ for the freight fees, I will have to sue you in court. I already have my lawyer here in Canada and in your state In Arizona, we have our lawyer ready to act again you. For sure I will have to be there so it will mean more expensive for you because I have to pay for my fees and the lawyer fees. We will meet together in Arizona."

I can't even imagine being able to pay $1400 for shipping a pin they have not seen in real time. (He declined my facetime or Skype offer.

#22 5 years ago

Maybe I missed it, but how did he pay you?

#23 5 years ago

I initially had him use Paypal but he did it wrong "for goods/services" so I didn't want the $300 fee. I then researched what was best and he did a wire transfer.

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#24 5 years ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

I initially had him use Paypal but he did it wrong "for goods/services" so I didn't want the $300 fee. I then researched what was best and he did a wire transfer.

Bullet dodged * 9000.

#25 5 years ago

Tell him to make sure to bring the machine back to Arizona when he comes down. And leave it at that.

#26 5 years ago

OK Pinside lawyers, give this guy your best advice as a Christmas gift. I feel his pain but don't have any better advice than Levi's original post.

#27 5 years ago

Tell him you know the judge ... JUDGE DREAD!!!! He is the law!!!

#28 5 years ago

Why do you continue to communicate with this guy?

#29 5 years ago

Tell the guy to check how pinsiders see this story.
(he is even welcome to create an account and react)

#30 5 years ago

The guy is bluffing, that or incredibly stupid. He got the machine at the price he wanted. This guy probably didn't know anything about the taxes (5% - 13%) + brokerage he had to pay when it entered Canada. Secondly the CDN is in the shits right now so when it all converted he probably paid in the relm of $6400 (converted) + $500US shipped + brokerage + 832 in taxes (+/-). That's close to a $8K TAF.

- The EOS switch error is a breeze and most likely due to transport
- U18 could be as simple as a loose ribbon or he could just try reseating and resetting the machine.
- Look a diode on a switch....what his this guy pointing at?
- Not sure what the others pictures are about apart from a nice looking TAF
- dirt & dust in the cab....geese the game is 22+ years old and was left in an closed down bar for 15-years. The last thing I would complain about is dirt in the cab.

I would not even talk to this guy until you receive some papers. Which upon you can counter sue for legal fees it will take you to get rid of this guy.

In others...all his problems can potentially be related to transport...which is not your fault.

In court:
Judge - Did both of you agree on price
You - Yes
Judge - Did you send him the machine in the pictures
You - Yes
Judge - Can the problems related to this game could have happen during transport?
You - Yes
Judge to the accuser - Can you prove that this problems where there before you received the machine
Accuser - No!

Case dismissed!

He probably saw one on kijiji and now as buyers remorse.

#31 5 years ago

He chose not to inspect the machine prior to purchase. Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

#32 5 years ago

Even if he did take this to court (EXTREMELY DOUBTFUL) I really don't see how he could win. Mostly likely it's a total bluff. Stop responding to him.

#33 5 years ago

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! For the buyer. Ignore him Ed

#34 5 years ago

I'm betting he's bluffing. Yah you've hired a lawyer in Canada and AZ and you compose a sentence like a Nigerian scammer...suure.

I would ignore him.

By the looks of what's going on it would seem the ribbon cable fell off (or is loose) to the fliptronics and sound boards.

-c

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from CraigC:

By the looks of what's going on it would seem the ribbon cable fell off (or is loose) to the fliptronics and sound boards.
-c

BINGO!

#36 5 years ago

Bottom line is you sold a used item to someone and they paid for it. Once you did your part and shipped that item (in condition described) I don't think buyer has a leg to stand on as far as taking any action against you. We are talking about a USED item over 20 years old - logic says it isn't going to be perfect and even if he did sue a judge would consider that.

As far as getting sued - interstate lawsuits are tough and I have to assume international suits would be even harder so I really wouldn't worry about being sued. If I understand things correctly he would have to sue you in your state and show up in court in your area. I doubt anyone would go through all of that over a few thousand dollars. And even if he did he doesn't have a chance with a 20+ year old machines being a little dirty.

It is a shame some people are so clueless! That is why I will never ship a pinball machine (or anything else I sell). If you can't pick it up in person and inspect it when you pick it up I really don't want to sell it to you regardless. I know this keeps me from getting the most money out of stuff I sell and some people get upset when you will not ship but to me it just isn't worth it.

Best of luck to you. As far as suggestions I would just tell him to do what he has to do but machine was sold as-is and he got exactly what he paid for and what you described.

#37 5 years ago

If the guy joined Pinside and posted his issues he could probably have his machine back up in a day of adjusting an EOS switch, reseating some cables/chips, and paper towels and cleaner. Makes more sense to try to ship it back and threaten to sue though.

#38 5 years ago

deferentially buyers remorse and for the clamped battery holder looking cheap, who care you only have to look at it once a year.

#39 5 years ago

You have a difference in interpretations in the state of the machine. This guy sounds like a threat addict. I would construct a short email that your business is now concluded. He rejected your first offer of repairing the situation, you have it in writing. Now you are done.

10
#40 5 years ago

Honestly, it looks to me like you sold a VERY dirty game in average condition for a premium price.

None of the pictures are very good but I would say you did a poor job of highlighting how dirty the game was and what the full set of issues are, especially when selling to a first time owner and shipping a long distance.

JMHO

That said, he also did not have a clue what he was getting in for and probably should have waited or paid more for the game he actually wanted in the condition he was looking for.

#41 5 years ago

This is completely his problem not yours.

#42 5 years ago

Is the EOS switch on backwards? Looks like the way the flipper would spin would not open it. Outside of that I see nothing other than some dirt.

This is exactly why I have a pre-paid legal service. Cost me $24 a month and I've used them several times like this. One call and I'm done dealing with it.

Do you have a link or copy of the actual add that this guy responded to? That may help with things a bit to see what the expectations were set as. At $5500 I honestly would have expected a nicer version of the game as the cab is not in real good shape, PF has minor wear, ramps look to need to be cleaned and polished and sub rubbers need changing. I would have been upset to to get the game in this shape for that cost. With that said, it would have been my fault for not getting better pics though so that's on him, not you. I'm also not in TAF market so that could be going rate for them like this. I don't know, just giving my perspective though.

Let him sue (most people just threaten anyways). Not even sure how that would work anyways. He's not a US citizen so could he even sue in the US courts? Seems the jurisdiction would have to be AZ as that is where you are located.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Honestly, it looks to me like you sold a VERY dirty game in average condition for a premium price.
None of the pictures are very good but I would say you did a poor job of highlighting how dirty the game was and what the full set of issues are, especially when selling to a first time owner and shipping a long distance.
JMHO

I can't agree with you. The price of the pin is irrelevant. He can ask whatever he wants and it doesn't matter what the condition is. He sent the buyer pictures, it is up the buyer to determine its worth and either pay the asking price or move on. The buyer saw the pictures and still decided he wanted the pin. At that point it is his problem not the sellers. Now if the seller hid things by not sending pictures, then it would be a different story. Bottom line is the buyer didn't look at the pictures or ignored them, sent his money and bought a old machine that is used. Games are as-is, that's about as simple as it can be.

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Is the EOS switch on backwards? Looks like the way the flipper would spin would not open it.

Fliptronics. EOS is open, flipper pawl closes it when flipper goes up.

LTG : )™

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

I can't agree with you. The price of the pin is irrelevant. He can ask whatever he wants and it doesn't matter what the condition is. He sent the buyer pictures, it is up the buyer to determine its worth and either pay the asking price or move on. The buyer saw the pictures and still decided he wanted the pin. At that point it is his problem not the sellers. Now if the seller hid things by not sending pictures, then it would be a different story. Bottom line is the buyer didn't look at the pictures or ignored them, sent his money and bought a old machine that is used. Games are as-is, that's about as simple as it can be.

Hard to tell without seeing the actual advert and photos but sure seems like the seller did not do a good job of pointing out all the issues and the seller obviously has NO attention to detail if he calls that "cleaning the playfield". I think it really comes down to if the seller purposefully hid the true condition or not, as photos can very easily hide all sorts of issues.

#46 5 years ago

Learned something new. Proof I was being honest about not being in the TAF market too

#47 5 years ago

He has pinball you have cash, deal is done. If you want to offer him support after the sell to be nice you can but you have no obligation. I have no idea why you would even mention giving the person his money back.

#48 5 years ago

AS IS......enough said.

Plus, there is NO WAY he is going to sue you from Canada unless he is truly stupider than we all think...He sounds like that jackass Harvard professor who recently threatened to sue a Chinese restaurant over $4.00 and was called out by the internet.

#49 5 years ago
Quoted from Dbaum88:

AS IS......enough said.
Plus, there is NO WAY he is going to sue you from Canada unless he is truly stupider than we all think...He sounds like that jackass Harvard professor who recently threatened to sue a Chinese restaurant over $4.00 and was called out by the internet.

my thoughts exactly. he may come here and flame you, who cares, put him on ignore. if you sent the pics he asked about then it's not on you. i thing the lawyer crap is just that crap! and when i had some issues with a renter that wouldn't pay, in canada you can't sue for legal costs incurred. supposed he did sue and won a judgement, i would think that would be small claims court anyway and how the hell would he enforce it? can't title lean your home, that has nothing to do with it. he *could* put a collection agency on you , i don't think anyone could even put a report on your credit.

#50 5 years ago

Where in Canada is this moron located, I would love to send him an offer to take it off his hands if he is close by.

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