(Topic ID: 73351)

sys.6 driver board bench testing procedure help


By sixpakmopar

5 years ago



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  • 31 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by barakandl
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 5 years ago

    Retitled post as I have not found the issue.
    I am bench testing a sys. 6 driver with Leon's test rom and following Mark's guide to troubleshooting and repair http://www.flippers.info/system6repairpart5.asp

    The first step is to test pins 2-17 on the 3 PIA's (for the one at IC11 says to ground pins on 2J3 to test OUTPUTS 2-9) I did this one pin at a time and get a pulse on each. Now under the switch matrix input test it calls these pins INPUTS and describes grounding each pin on conn. 2J3 and checking the PIA at IC10 (pins 2-9 I assume) for a pulse. The confusion I have is that these pins (2-17 on all 3 PIA's)were already checked for a pulse in the first step and now am being directed to check again but by grounding the pins at conn.2J3 one by one. Since these pins already have a signal/pulse how is checking them again going to matter? Why is PIA at IC11 said to have inputs at pins 2-9 and also outputs at pins 2-9? My guess is there is reference to the wrong pins or the wrong PIA in these instructions but I am not sure what the error is.
    Thanks Ed

    #2 5 years ago

    I actually expected some sort of clarification or some sort of comments on this by now. Anybody???

    #3 5 years ago

    It's only been 3 hours

    Sorry master we will work faster!

    #4 5 years ago

    I know it has not been long.

    #5 5 years ago

    It's mainly a terminology thing. Pins 2-9 on PIA II (IC11) are called PA0-PA7 on the chip schematics. They are configurable as input or output, and Leon's test ROM configures them as outputs to give you the pulsing signal to look for. Their function in the context of running a game ROM is to connect to the switch matrix inputs to see when a matrix switch is closed.

    I guess the doc's reference to IC10 is a typo? That is the lamps PIA which is not relevant to any of this.

    I'm not sure why it suggests doing this twice. As you suggest, it seems redundant.

    #6 5 years ago

    Thanks, will do some checking tomorrow.
    Ed

    #7 5 years ago

    Still have not figured this out. Any thoughts?

    #8 5 years ago

    When running the leon diag rom. The PIAs will cycling high and low on the driver board except for half of the switch matrix PIA. To get the 2nd half of the switch matrix PIA to cycle, you need to ground the input connector and it cycles. Simple as that.

    I like to use the andre test rom. Speeds up testing the driver board as andre's test ROM has caught every bad PIA with out logic probe testing.

    #9 5 years ago
    Quoted from sixpakmopar:

    Still have not figured this out. Any thoughts?

    Have not figured what out?

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    When running the leon diag rom. The PIAs will cycling high and low on the driver board except for half of the switch matrix PIA. To get the 2nd half of the switch matrix PIA to cycle, you need to ground the input connector and it cycles. Simple as that.

    Sounds simple and logical. Makes perfect sense as well. What confuses me is on Marks pinball page it says to test x in the first step for pulse then a little further into the testing it says to test x again for pulse. If it was there before why test again? So I am assuming and trying to bring to light a typo/misdirection in the testing procedure on Marks page. If you read the PIA test procedure then go to the switch matrix test you should see what I am talking about.
    Ed

    #11 5 years ago

    I'd work off Leon's page. Leon may have revised his ROM to do something differently since Mark's page was published. The last version of his site before he passed have been mirrored on Pinwiki as the originals are gone...

    http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leon_Borre%27s_Repair_Articles

    BTW, Hans @ Siegecraft's testers are invaluable for something like this sort of test. Gives easy visual confirmation that a solenoid driver works, allows for easy grounding of the special solenoid switch inputs, etc.

    http://www.siegecraft.us/pinball/boards.html

    See the Special Solenoid Input Tester, and the Solenoid Circuit Tester - but the others are all quite good, too!

    #12 5 years ago

    With the switch matrix test, the first portion at connector 2J2, you test at the actual .156 connector header. This gives you the status of the driven voltage on the columns.

    But because of the differences in return side of the circuit the circuit, the other half cannot be tested at connector 2J3. You ground the pins on connector 2J3, but do the actual probing test at the legs on the PIA chip itself.

    Switch matrix PIA is IC11, The PIA pins 2-9 are the input, and 10-17 are the drives.

    -Hans

    #13 5 years ago

    Thanks, I did start to read through Leon's page but decided to try Mark's as Leon's is translated and some references struck me as odd, then I came across what seems to be an error on Mark's page which is the reason for this post.
    BTW I do have Han's testers and used them with time warp game roms and all tests good but also know this driver has an issue when installed in Black Knight which may not show up with the time warp roms so that is why I went to use Leon's test rom/Mark's page and stopped when I ran into the issue.
    Ed

    #14 5 years ago

    I think it is not so much of an issue and more just a redundancy. One section is for testing the PIAs and one section is for testing the switch inputs, and it just happens that they overlap.

    #15 5 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    With the switch matrix test, the first portion at connector 2J2, you test at the actual .156 connector header. This gives you the status of the driven voltage on the columns.
    But because of the differences in return side of the circuit the circuit, the other half cannot be tested at connector 2J3. You ground the pins on connector 2J3, but do the actual probing test at the legs on the PIA chip itself.
    Switch matrix PIA is IC11, The PIA pins 2-9 are the input, and 10-17 are the drives.
    -Hans

    Very true, just because the PIA cycles, doesn't meant the rest of the logic in the switch matrix is good. Both the 4049, and 7406 ICs associated with switch matrix are prone to failure up there in that corner..

    #16 5 years ago

    That could be, I am looking for an issue with the board(if I install this board a coil or more fires at power up and a fuse blows, put a different board in and all is perfectly fine, only variable is 2 different driver boards, one configured for sys. 7 w/zero Ohm resistors(problem board) and one for sys.6) but did not see any issue by doing this testing and that is what made me think there was some sort of misdirection in the testing outline.
    Ed

    #17 5 years ago

    If coils lock on at startup then you need to check the solenoid driver area. Test all the transistors, predrivers, and 7402s behind the solenoids that lock on.

    #18 5 years ago

    I have tested with Leon's test chip and Leon's instructions and all appears good. I only have a single light test LED that I used instead of making one up with multiple lights. I had already tested the transistors with a meter and did not find any stuck. Someone else has a black knight post on here with a similar issue of a ball kicking into shooter lane at power up but also seems to have more issues involved. Maybe I will have to put it back in the game and test it hooked up to the sys. 7 MPU. Maybe I am looking for nothing. The reason I am putting this board in is because it was originally a black knight board with the 0 Ohm resistors,the board that came in my black knight does not have the 0 ohm resistors and seems to miss lighting/enabling the magna save sometimes.

    Aside from this can anyone explain how to use Leon's test chip along with the Siegecraft testers on a bench for system 6. I have tried this with the game roms but that only tests what is on those roms as far as switches used.

    Ed

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from sixpakmopar:

    The reason I am putting this board in is because it was originally a black knight board with the 0 Ohm resistors,the board that came in my black knight does not have the 0 ohm resistors and seems to miss lighting/enabling the magna save sometimes.

    You can just replace those resistors with wire jumpers of course, they don't have to actually be 0 ohm resistors.

    I usually just use leads that I clipped from other installed components.

    I do this so that the boards can be used in sys3-6 or 7 games without worry.

    Sometimes 0 ohm resistors can fail open. Wire jumpers never fail.

    #20 5 years ago

    where can I get the andre rom?

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    I do this so that the boards can be used in sys3-6 or 7 games without worry.

    I did not think of them failing and the look is more uniform instead of wires but that is a very good point to consider.
    My bench is currently littered with leads from 30 or so replaced capacitors.
    I was going to do this for interchangeability but then found info saying it could cause an issue in a system 6 game so that made me unsure of what was correct. At that point I decided to swap boards between 2 machines that had 6 vs. 7 drivers interchanged which led to the rebuilt driver causing an issue.

    Thanks

    #22 5 years ago
    Quoted from sixpakmopar:

    My bench is currently littered with leads from 30 or so replaced capacitors.

    LOL, I know how that looks.

    Bend them nicely with this:

    bender.jpg
    #23 5 years ago
    Quoted from sixpakmopar:

    I was going to do this for interchangeability but then found info saying it could cause an issue in a system 6 game so that made me unsure of what was correct.

    Other than Hyperball, I believe that system 7 driver board can be used with any sys3-6 CPU, no problem at all.

    #24 5 years ago

    My bench has an excuse because it is a 100+ year old cabinet makers bench with a trough in the back for wood shavings , just sweep the work surface junk into it and clean up at a later time.
    I have that bender, set of them actually.
    Just to clarify there is no problem with the zero Ohm (wire jumpers) when used in a system 6. That would suggest that something I read on the internet is Not true. Imagine that.

    Ed

    #25 5 years ago

    Sorry, I am too slow

    #26 5 years ago

    The resistor value really just tweaks the sensitivity of the switches. My basic understanding is that the software for system 3-6 had issues dealing with multiple switch closures in the same row, so I believe they de-sensitized them a bit to compensate. System 7 is better at dealing with multiple closures, so they went with the 0-ohms for maximum sensitivity.

    Logic-wise, nothing changes in how the CPU chip reads the data on the switch PIA, the resistors just change the threshold at which the PIA senses switch closures.

    -Hans

    #27 5 years ago

    can anyone help me with a location for andre rom? I have been using leon rom and my fire power passes all test but blinks on then off but no blanking signal. I woul like to try andre's and see if it helps.

    #28 5 years ago

    I was just looking online and found a year old post here on pinside but could not figure out how to create a link to it.

    #29 5 years ago

    I can send you the image if you need it to program your own - send me your e-mail address and I'll send the Andre images over.

    Can program them if you need a programmed chip, too. Just LMK

    #31 5 years ago

    What i didnt know when i made this video is when andre rom is flickering the LED quickly (after a test button bush) it is actually in solenoid test. So you can hook up a solenoid test LED strips to quickly test all solenoid circuits. When first power on the board it is in cycling pia test, but it is so slow (use leon's if you want to do this part of it).

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