(Topic ID: 171311)

**Hyperthetical**... CFTBL code improvements v2.0


By swinks

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 61 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by jfh
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Would you”

  • leave creature as is 11 votes
    18%
  • love a deeper coded creature 23 votes
    38%
  • love a deeper coded creature that you could turn on / off certain features 24 votes
    39%
  • consider getting a creature if it was deeper 3 votes
    5%

(61 votes)

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There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 years ago

Hyperthetical, would you like a CFTBL more if it had some deeper and cooler features added to the game as a v2.0 release.

a pinsider wrote to me today about another subject and mentioned the once plan of Fast and Skitb doing a Funhouse 2.0 code upgrade (pretty sure done and dusted now) and the pinsider today also mentioned CFTBL would be cool with even more features added. That got me thinking I wonder if anyone has already considered doing a code upgrade for CFTBL and started or if anyone is considering it.

CFTBL has very cool art, has some great mods and decent sounds as well as a fun layout but at times shot down because of it's lack of depth in rules.

So if you have any thoughts or rule ideas, please share.

My current rule ideas:

- the whirlpool ramp is a treat to achieve but would be cool to open it to another feature of the game.
- have a 3 - 4 ball multiball
- add a ball feature multiball - like going to the snackbar and buy snacks for all your buddies back at the car, each visit during the 2 ball multiball to the snackbar adds another ball up to 4.
- maybe when FILM is spelt and you find the girl and instead of the game starting over for the creature movie again that the game starts as a double feature with another movie Godzilla, or car themed movie of the era with a slightly different set of rules using the FILM icons to mix it up.
- a lights out mode, with maybe a few select lights on or by adding a led strip at the back of the game or just using the multiball while whirlpool lights are on ????. maybe busting the people kissing in the cars or rocking their cars
- make the Exit Special a more used feature - can't remember what triggers that one?
- a new coded creature that you could go into the menu and turn off certain modes to really fine tune the game to your liking but then with a tournament setting for comps to always include a set range of modes.
- also since the see through playfield window is in there, wouldn't it be cool if a second playfield could be added into the game with 1-2flippers and had to shoot targets to simulate swimming in the caves and there also could be a large insert with a creature to light up for the FILM achievements.

Don't get me wrong I love Creature but sometimes a little more would be cool especially the 2nd movie completion for a 2nd jackpot / wizard mode.

Sorry I am not doing this as just not talented to do so.

#2 3 years ago

Uh yeah! That's sounds awesome.

#3 3 years ago

I have thought for a long time ... if someone could do new licenced software for the WPC titles, they'd be on to a winner.

Think about it, if you could do the upgrade programming as per above, burn it onto a chip and market it for say $299, who wouldn't want to buy it? You'd have basically a new game for $299. You'd sell a bunch of them.

rd

#4 3 years ago

Sounds great. New code would be amazing for it.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I have thought for a long time ... if someone could do new licenced software for the WPC titles, they'd be on to a winner.
Think about it, if you could do the upgrade programming as per above, burn it onto a chip and market it for say $299, who wouldn't want to buy it? You'd have basically a new game for $299. You'd sell a bunch of them.
rd

that would be cool and sure many people would cough up $250-$300 for a new game in effect

#6 3 years ago

As for rules,

- would be cool if the ufo was included somehow as well
- and maybe a mode for cars leaving and doing donuts in the paddock - using the whirlpool as a way to capture the cars actions

#7 3 years ago

forgot the obvious, since it is a drive-in there has to be a midnight madness mode maybe where all the cars and leaving the drive-in.

#8 3 years ago

New code = Good!!!
$299 = definitely no good...

#9 3 years ago

$299 is fine because you can't copy protect an eprom.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from AlexSMendes:

New code = Good!!!
$299 = definitely no good...

You want someone to do it for free?

rd

#11 3 years ago

So who is gonna step up and do this?!

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from TKDalumni:

So who is gonna step up and do this?!

Not I, said the fox!

I wouldn't know a 0 from a 1 with coding.

But if I did, it'd be a winner for sure and I'd be into it.

rd

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

You want someone to do it for free?
rd

Though swinks had a very nice idea, I find extremely annoying people defining price tags on smthg that they have absolutely no clue on the effort of making such things happen....

I also have no idea, but I won't guess the value of it. Could it be more? Less? Honestly don't know, but I definitely wouldn't pay $299, and I'm sure many people wouldN'T cough up $250-$300 for it...

#14 3 years ago

I would be all over a rules expansion for Creature..... Or MB..... Or NGG...... Or a host of others. If it were at all practical we would have dozens of 2.0 upgrades by now. Maybe someone who knows something could chime in and raise my hopes, but I won't be holding my breath.

#15 3 years ago

Unless you have access to the original development environment I don't see how this could be possible. People are able to make changes to code (WPC competition roms for example) by viewing what is changing in realtime on an emulator, and modifying it. I make it sound easy but that's very time consuming and not an easy task, and it's usually limited to scoring changes and balances. Adding entirely new modes would be extremely difficult and I am not aware of it being done on DMD games.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from AlexSMendes:

Though swinks had a very nice idea, I find extremely annoying people defining price tags on smthg that they have absolutely no clue on the effort of making such things happen....
I also have no idea, but I won't guess the value of it. Could it be more? Less? Honestly don't know, but I definitely wouldn't pay $299, and I'm sure many people wouldN'T cough up $250-$300 for it...

I just pulled a figure out of thin air.

It'll take 100s of hours to do a project like this. Programming, play testing, reprogramming ...

People are paying $400 USD for a chip to make their MM displays colour. They are paying $2000 USD for a 2.0 kit for Bride of Pinbot (albeit that includes some hardware as well)

So $299 for a whole new game rom to completely change your existing 90s pinball machine would be a pretty good deal I would think.

The problem would be, no doubt someone would rip the Roms and burn copies. I have no idea how to stop that happening.

rd

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

The problem would be, no doubt someone would rip the Roms and burn copies. I have no idea how to stop that happening.
rd

It's impossible to prevent that with a simple rom swap. Now someone could get creative and create a daughterboard that installs in the CPU socket that adds some decryption circuitry to decrypt the modified rom but then that means designing and selling additional hardware to make it work. Doubt that anybody would do that.

#18 3 years ago

Double feature with a 2nd movie from the same era would be cool. If it's a lights out mode then how about "The Invisible Man". It works similar to looking for the creature but based on the various targets and switches instead of the 3 holes. Lights off until something is hit so you track down where the invisible man is hiding. Put a timer on finding him or he moves to another location/leaves/end mode too!

Add a ball through the snack bar is cool though I'd stick with just 3rd ball since that's what the machine and trough are set for.

A video mode like the arcade game Jungle Hunt - using flippers to swim away from the Creature.
A video mode like the arcade game Tapper - using flippers to serve customers are the snack bar.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

It's impossible to prevent that with a simple rom swap. Now someone could get creative and create a daughterboard that installs in the CPU socket that adds some decryption circuitry to decrypt the modified rom but then that means designing and selling additional hardware to make it work. Doubt that anybody would do that.

It's probably the intelligent option from a business point of view. It wouldn't cost that much more for a small board, yet you would protect the work you'd put into it.

rd.

#20 3 years ago

What about licensing issues?

#21 3 years ago

"hypothetically"

Any code well done would be great for any title. You could always change it back to original.

Hyperthet´ic`al
a. 1. Exaggerated; excessive; hyperbolical.
Hyperthetical or superlative . . . expression.

----------------------------------------------------

hy·po·thet·i·cal (hī′pə-thĕt′ĭ-kəl)
adj. also hy·po·thet·ic (-thĕt′ĭk)
1. Of, relating to, or based on a hypothesis: a hypothetical situation.
2. Conditional; contingent: the hypothetical meaning of a clause beginning with if.

#22 3 years ago

How did Dutch, 2.0 BOP?

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

I would be all over a rules expansion for Creature..... Or MB..... Or NGG...... Or a host of others. If it was at all practical we would have dozens of 2.0 upgrades by now. Maybe someone who knows something could chime in and raise my hopes, but I won't be holding my breath.

NGG if nothing else to fix the bugs and add some cool things for completing 18 holes. I owned a CFBTL and really miss it. Would love to see a software update.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I just pulled a figure out of thin air.
It'll take 100s of hours to do a project like this. Programming, play testing, reprogramming ...
People are paying $400 USD for a chip to make their MM displays colour. They are paying $2000 USD for a 2.0 kit for Bride of Pinbot (albeit that includes some hardware as well)
So $299 for a whole new game rom to completely change your existing 90s pinball machine would be a pretty good deal I would think.
The problem would be, no doubt someone would rip the Roms and burn copies. I have no idea how to stop that happening.
rd

Its doable. WPC is easier than say Alvin G, Capcom, or DE as at least there is quite a bit of information on how the basic code works. The problem is someone has to reverse engineer the entire rom. This is not 100's of hours of work. It is 1k's. If it is a pet project for someone like ChadH has been doing with DE games sure. Someone saying wouldn't be great *if* and doing the fun part, IE new rules, but none of the actual work.

No one will pay for the work. The people throwing out the ideas have no concept of the effort involved and they are too cheap to fund it. This is why PPS never got anywhere with code updates. Simply no way to realistically fund it.

Quoted from transprtr4u:

What about licensing issues?

Easy to get around. Don't distribute the updated roms. Distribute a patcher. No code infringed on.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from dung:

The problem is someone has to reverse engineer the entire rom. This is not 100's of hours of work. It is 1k's.

Exactly. It would have to be a labour of love, that's for sure.

Would it be better to start from scratch rather than re-engineering the Williams stuff?

rd

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from TKDalumni:

How did Dutch, 2.0 BOP?

They wrote all the rules from scratch to run on a small embedded PC that drives the machine via a P-ROC board. The original bop rules can be run on the machine using pinmame, but not extended in that way.

Some here are talking about new roms, which could be coded from scratch using FreeWPC. The number of people who have completed FreeWPC titles are relatively few...

#27 3 years ago

error. Disregard

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from scottmaggie:

Double feature with a 2nd movie from the same era would be cool. If it's a lights out mode then how about "The Invisible Man". It works similar to looking for the creature but based on the various targets and switches instead of the 3 holes. Lights off until something is hit so you track down where the invisible man is hiding. Put a timer on finding him or he moves to another location/leaves/end mode too!
Add a ball through the snack bar is cool though I'd stick with just 3rd ball since that's what the machine and trough are set for.
A video mode like the arcade game Jungle Hunt - using flippers to swim away from the Creature.
A video mode like the arcade game Tapper - using flippers to serve customers are the snack bar.

great ideas and like the invisible man ideas....

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Exactly. It would have to be a labour of love, that's for sure.
Would it be better to start from scratch rather than re-engineering the Williams stuff?
rd

Not so much that it'd be better, that you'd have to unless you're licensing with PPS.

#30 3 years ago

agree it would be a big ask and actually a love job that someone was already doing (wishful thinking)

I agree it would take a crap load of time and hence I would NOT expect it for free

just an attempt to have a fun chat and what ideas people had to improve the game

have fun

#31 3 years ago

My only real complaints with Creature are the repetitive, easy, and fairly high value left ramp combo, and the random distribution of modes. In casual play the latter doesn't matter as much and wouldn't be a necessary change, however in tournament mode that should absolutely be removed. One player getting a pretzel and the other getting Unlimited Millions is just flat out unfair.

As far as the left ramp combo issue, the left ramp should really be given a use in main gameplay rather than just being looped over and over. Hell I'd rather it just do nothing instead of what it does now.

Anyways, other than that I think Creature from the Black Lagoon is one of the strongest Williams games. There's great value in the simplicity, challenge, and replayability. The multiball being only two ball with no add-a-ball is a fantastic challenge that really makes you play in a much more safe, controlled, and protected manner, where losing one ball means losing out on the massive prizes that lie ahead. Most modern multiballs with tiny jackpots, very long ball savers, and add-a-balls that provide even more long ball saver fail to recreate the intensity and excitement that Creature from the Black Lagoon presents. Even the glitch with the multiball playfield multipliers makes for an incredible asset in your game strategy, it's spectacular and wasn't even intentional!

Also as far as theming, atmosphere, sound, lighting, and animation, I find it to be one of the best games ever made. Very, very little I'd want to change with this game.

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from WaddleJrJr:

Also as far as theming, atmosphere, sound, lighting, and animation, I find it to be one of the best games ever made. Very, very little I'd want to change with this game.

totally agree, that's what makes this game so special, just would be nice a little deeper or double movie feature rules for the challenge to go deeper and fun

#33 3 years ago
Quoted from WaddleJrJr:

One player getting a pretzel and the other getting Unlimited Millions is just flat out unfair.

absolutely right, I'm bummed when I don't get the pretzel!

#34 3 years ago

I think the game is pretty perfect as it is.

#35 3 years ago

So what hardware, software, programming language skills would you need to pull this of? Hyperthetical speaking...

#36 3 years ago

Pinsider Aeneas was working on new Wh2o code.
New modes and everything.
He would be the man to ask .

#37 3 years ago

That's me

Well there are a few ways to do it.
1/ learn assembler and get intimite knowledge of the wpc platform and you can hack the existing eprom (but it's more tweaking of rules then, making total new rules is very difficult then) - but you get to keep the existing rules. Very difficult to do..

2/ go p-roc. Disadvantage is that it costs more (new hardware to buy for everyone who wants to install the new rules). It gives you (total) freedom, you can create everything from scratch and add new things (new sounds, animations, color screen, ..). This is the most popular way at the moment (see CCC, Bop2, ..). It's an active project so a lot of help is available.

3/ Use FreeWPC. What I am doing. James Cardona's Demolition man new rules are probably the most known rom made with freewpc, there are also new rules for Corvette and TZ.
Disadvantage is that the project isn't popular / active anymore (so not many people to ask for help, there's a lot of info but you need to find it yourself). But there's a stable, working version that you can use.
Advantage is that the rules get burnt to a chip that everyone can install in their existing game. So it's cheaper for people to put it in their machine.
You can only use the existing sounds, which is a disadvantage if you want to create total new modes and don't have good sounds effects to go with them.

You program it in C. While that is not the easiest language, I didn't find it that complicated to make new rules.. there are a lot of examples with the freewpc code of other game rules so you can always check how someone else did something. And there are usually multiple ways of doing something so while some code may not be optimal, if it runs it's ok
The freewpc environment isn't the easiest to learn but I documented a lot of what I encountered and others had also documented how to set up everything on your pc.

Programming skills are only one part needed. You need someone also with graphical skills (this is what I miss and where I'm stuck now). Just having some nice looking artwork makes a huge difference.. and you also need testers, people who want to look for bugs and help fine tune the rom (ie help with when lights/flashers or short sound effects are activated, ..).

As far as licensing, normally you can't re-use anything. My rom is called bigfoot (and not whitewater2) and I don't re-use any graphics. Then you're legally ok.

Edit: link to my documentation :
http://www.flippers.be/freewpc.html

#38 3 years ago

So using FreeWPC would be the way to go, but I think the idea is just to add some additional things to the code and not to re-write all of it. Is there a way to get the original code into FreeWPC so that you would only add lines here and there?

#39 3 years ago

No that's not possible. With both freewpc and p-roc you have to rewrite everything and can't reuse any existing code.

#40 3 years ago

who wrote the rules for this ear of games?
maybe they are still working?

#41 3 years ago

It would be cool to incorporate pinball Mike d's mod as well. Still the best creature upgrade as of now , in my opinion.

20161019_114908 (resized).jpg

4 months later
#42 2 years ago

So are we gonna get a new code?

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from Robertstone0407:

So are we gonna get a new code?

I doubt it but at least if you put it out there one day someone may consider it.

#44 2 years ago

The way I look at it is I love the code as is, needs to add to the strategy not subtract. Very minor changes. All I'd like to see is

After 5 left ramp shops the ramp lowers for 30 seconds, each shot to left ramp resets timer.
Next would be 10, 15 etc. Each left raml shot will tier 1 million, 2 etc.

Multiball stays the same except stategedy stays the same except if you find the creature and save the girl it starts a 4 ball wizard mode.All multipliers are set offor the previous 2 ball multiball mode. That way it's risk reward. Stack your multiplier before starting 4 ball or just start to ball. This gives a highly rewarding but risky depth to the game.4 ball will have 5 second ball saver and cannot be reset. 2 ball reset to snack bar as normal.

I feel these changes would open the rewarding part of the playfield alot of people have a hard time to get to while this adding a deeper level to multiball and the flow.

What you guys think

#45 2 years ago

That would be awesome

#46 2 years ago
Quoted from MightyGrave:

That would be awesome

It'd be a very minor addition. Sadly I don't got the skills. Maybe I could learn but no experience really

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from Robertstone0407:

The way I look at it is I love the code as is, needs to add to the strategy not subtract. Very minor changes. All I'd like to see is
After 5 left ramp shops the ramp lowers for 30 seconds, each shot to left ramp resets timer.
Next would be 10, 15 etc. Each left raml shot will tier 1 million, 2 etc.
Multiball stays the same except stategedy stays the same except if you find the creature and save the girl it starts a 4 ball wizard mode.All multipliers are set offor the previous 2 ball multiball mode. That way it's risk reward. Stack your multiplier before starting 4 ball or just start to ball. This gives a highly rewarding but risky depth to the game.4 ball will have 5 second ball saver and cannot be reset. 2 ball reset to snack bar as normal.
I feel these changes would open the rewarding part of the playfield alot of people have a hard time to get to while this adding a deeper level to multiball and the flow.
What you guys think

Creature only has a 3 ball trough and it has no autolauncher.

#48 2 years ago

You can do it also with a 3 ball MB and no auto luncher... But a few tweaks on the code would be fine...

But if you have to buy Hardware Like a p-roc board vor stuff it might be better to upgrade the code more, in case of the Hardware pricing

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from Robertstone0407:

It'd be a very minor addition. Sadly I don't got the skills. Maybe I could learn but no experience really

What you described is not really "very minor". It's because you don't have the skills that you think so. Nice ideas though

#50 2 years ago

I find it really ridiculous that people would balk at $300 for a new set of rules for a game. The rules make all the difference in pinball - they are literally half of what makes a game fun to play. And if you consider what these games cost, let alone what parts/mods prices are, $300 would be an absolute bargain basement price.

Having 2 different sets of rules is almost like having 2 different games, if the differences are significant.

Compare this hypothetical upgrade to any of these...
- Invisiglass $300
- Topper $200
- Mike D Hologram LCD - $450
- LED OCD + LEDs - $300
- Toy car with LED headlights $50

All of the above added to a single game would NOT enhance the game play as much as a well done new ruleset. It wouldn't even be close. I think Creatures rules are great as-is, but an alternative version with Wizard modes would be absolutely awesome if done right. You would definitely want the ability to easily choose original vs new ruleset though.

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