Because W@W and L@@K have fallen out of style.

LTG : )

Because they didn’t save the receipt....

This is a much different situation than the new out of box category.

Anyone who has any kind of clue about pinball machines can generally tell if a machine was ever routed as there are several things just jump out like a sore thumb.

Not everyone keeps receipts/proof of purchase for decades.

Then don’t buy, pretty simple.

How does having a receipt prove you didn't put it on route?

It doesn’t and that is kind of my point.

If you know what your looking for, you can tell if a machine has thousands of plays on it.
Fact of the matter is machines in the home environment even when played regularly, just don’t exhibit the wear patterns of routed machines.

Or store it by your indoor swimming pool ?

LTG : )

Should I start keeping surveillance footage of games in my house from unboxing until sale?

I like sellers to be as accurate as possible. If seller "knows" it's HUO, regardless of proof, that's fair to say. And it's fair for me ask how they know this. It doesn't mean I have to believe them... it's still a buyer beware situation and inspection overrules everything, but I do want to know what the seller knows.
I'm not sympathetic with sellers using the term if they can't possibly know for sure.

NIB - new
NOB - really nice, but still basically HOU DOC
HOU doc - really nice
Restored - Restored supposedly?
HOU undoc - kind of nice
HOU needs work - This category is stupid
fully shopped - cleaned the glass and replaced a couple of rubbers
partially shopped - the glass got cleaned
Fresh of route - a beater, but at least their honest about it.
used shows wear, but working 100% - not broken, but still needs a lot of work to play right.
Used shows wear, needs work - broken and needs a lot of work
functional minor - broken
functional major - really broken

there are way to many categories, it tends to make things confusing for the buyer as well as the seller.
think it'd be easier if it was 4 or 5 categories. Just my opinion.
NIB - new
HOU - only one owner
Restored - restored
used - 2 or more owners (partial/full shop, partial restore etc.)
broken - broken
then the details with pictures.

Yes, I like your categories...

Heck, you can easily print up a fake receipt. I guess it's nice if they want to show it to you, but I wouldn't worry about documentation. Credibility, references, openness, and good old evolutionary gut instinct has to rule.
Honestly, I think it's hard to "hide" a routed game, but, yes, nothing is 100% certain.

The ONLY time HUO might be real for games prior to 2000, is if they are being sold by an athlete or Music performer.

Most operators & distributors would NEVER sell to laypeople because "If people have games at home, they won't play the games on route".

If games could not be sold at auction, they went straight to the dump.

But we DID deliver games to many pro athletes, musicians and recording studios.

So if Michael Dorn is selling a NIB STTNG, it's probably real.

13260041_1701058860158323_7597648533150492034_n (resized).jpg

I think that Asian kid has jizz in his hair

Pat Choy isn't a kid.

LTG : )

I’ve bought several supposed huo Undoc games that I would classify as better than kind of nice.

Condition and appearance is all that matters to me. I’ve seen some genuine huo documented with receipts totally covered with dust and mouse shit but hey it’s documented!

Guy, then. Just a joke

My god that’s a lot of question marks.

If there is anyone you want to jizz in your hair, it's Michael Dorn.

True HUO games you can usually tell with a receipt or not. It does make a difference. The problem is people over use the term when it is clear it is not true. Seeing the cabinet drilled, routed tags etc. You can tell the seller is lying.

I have a game that is HUO with no documentation. It was never routed and it is immediately obvious. I'm pretty sure I'm only the second owner.

I'm the third owner of my HUO Metallica. I actually know the first owner, but I'm not going to track him down for the receipt from it (if he even still has it).

I'm the fourth owner of my HUO LOTR. I know the original owner and one other owner of it for that too, no docs.

Fourth owner of my HUO Star Trek, and I don't know the original owner... no docs.

Second owner of my HUO Iron Man, no documentation.

HUO Undocumented just states that it has never been on location, however, none of these descriptions matter. All that matters is the condition of the game when you go to look at it.

How do you actually document HUO anyways ?

The same reason idiots put 100 punctuation marks on their thread titles; to get attention.

Dude. A game could be HUO with crayon scribbles all over the sides of the cabinet due to the owners kids having a field day with wall art.

Doesnt mean itll be in the desired condition.

It's all about being there and seeing the condition first hand......

I thought that's what twitch was for.

Condition is king. Given a choice between an undocumented HUO game that's in outstanding condition versus a documented HUO game with all its paperwork but looks like it was never waxed or had balls or rubbers changed, and I'll take the undocumented example every time.

I have a receipt. Does that make it worth more?

IMG_4664 (resized).JPG

I list sometimes as HUM......Home Use Mostly!

Why do we need another thread on this...???????????

Nothing new to bitch about.

LTG : )

I think you left out IMAMCULATE !

As with everything, buyer beware. Seeing something in person will likely confirm or deny claims of HUO. Of course you could thrash it at a home too. As with buying a car. Go, see it, drive it, ask lots of questions.

Oh, and only respond to posts that describe it as "RARE"!!!.

I live at the arcade.... So all my machines are huo.

I've often wondered after a game has been sold 30 to 40 times at what point is it considered Routed. All those bumpy rides and break downs do more to a game then sitting in a movie theater. If the game is clean and the price matches the appearance can't see why it matters.

How about a 20 year old pin, but it's been HUO for 10 with the same battery and only a few plays. What's that worth?

At what point does it become HRO (Home routed only)?

That depends on how much play, wear, and damage accumulates.

Some people (such as myself) are very careful when protecting and transporting their games to keep them as nice as possible. Other people just toss them in the back of their vehicle and take off without wrapping, protecting, or securing the game.

In any case, most of the games I've owned (made in the mid-60s to early 2000s) probably only had about a half dozen owners before me (based on asking about the game's history and backtracking to a point where it was in an arcade or on route).

I think 30+ owners for most games is a little unlikely.

That just made me wish I could trace the history of some of my games. Especially some of my EMs. I’d love to know how many owners they had, and all the locations they were at before that. Or who played the first game when they were fresh out of the box.

I don't mind the HUO (undocumented) what bothers me is when someone uses it to describe their beat routed pin. I see these Adams or TZs being advertised as HUO and the coin doors have coin wear marks and the backboxes are scratched to shit moving from location to location. Just because it has been in some dude's basement for 10 years-please.

This topic has been popping up more lately. Back in the day HUO was about less than 5% of the resale market. Fast forward to post 2010 and the number of HUO pins of that year or newer has increased dramatically. Add to that new people in the market and the water gets more gray by the week it seems. Some honestly believe they have a HUO machine without anything more than what the last seller told them. I had a friend buy a machine HUO from a reseller only to find a token in the coin slot.

Recently I saw a JM pinball being sold as HUO and questioned the seller softly (asked for pictures). The guy that sold him the pin contacted me via PM and said it was a route pin he had sold to the now seller back in 2003.

Buyer beware condition is king and HUO means very little IMO.

A token in a slot or wear marks around a coin slot doesn't even tell the whole story. I have all my machines with working mechanisms set to tokens.

You are an anomaly, most people set to free play in their home. The amount of coin drop it takes to produce wear is substantial, really don't think a home owner with tokens could do it. Other wear indicators like scoops, shooters, etc. will help prove a machine was routed or the homeowner severely abused it and played 1000's of games with little to zero maintenance. HUO means nothing.

Why are people so bothered with how people sell pins? For sale threads often blow up with people arguing with seller over something minor. People always try to upsale their junk. I don't know why pins are different than everything else and needs paper work, accurate acronyms, correct spelling, and internet approved price to sell. It doesn't seem like it is too hard to use your own judgment to determine whether a pin is worth asking price. If you are buying over internet then you are taking a risk. Don't just assume seller is honest about everything. I learned that the hard way.

I think the point of this thread is that people are abusing the terminology. People need to just be more upfront when posting a for sale ad. Something like-" This machine is in great shape 8/10 in condition, looks like it could be a HUO but not documented-Thanks for looking" But to state HUO(undocumented) well that is hearsay, how do you know?

Maybe we should re-do descriptions....

1.NIB
2. Collector Quality(basically new out of box)
3. Standard
4. Routed
5. Players
6. Project
7. Firewood