I don't think you really can. Too bad pins aren't like cars where, using the serial number like a VIn number. If you route them, you have to like register it somewhere with the department of pinball coin-op or something.

HUO is almost doesn't mean what it says, it's more like a way to describe a pin that:
1. Doesn't have hacks, like wire splices
2. Doesn't have horrible wear on the playfield, other than low play (like home use)
3. Doesn't have lots of scratches on the outside cabinet, almost as if it were transported to multiple locations

Condition with original purchase receipt. Could be in great condition and person said they had it forever, but can't prove it though. Maybe in reasonable state, person has receipt, but can't say it wasn't routed with the receipt in it at sometime.

The HUO's I had, wpc that is, both had the goodie bags and other stuff that to me validates things further.

In the end, why anyone is that anal is beyond me. Is the price indicative of the condition? Super, I'll take it. Play play play.

After all, they are too heavy to hang as artwork.

So, my No Fear had a goodie bag, and looked CQ, but the guy never eluded that his machine was HUO. Being naive I opened up that bag and changed out some cracked posts. If my game was HUO before, did I make it NOT HUO?

Not that I care, it's staying! (for now).

One of the things I really think is dumb to hear when people are selling a game is "Goodie bag still stapled in the cabinet". Especially when it is an older game.

Oh great, just what I wanted. A manual and extra decals folded and creased for years. Why not take them out and put them in a nice flat binder? They will be in much better shape then they are stapled to the corner of a cabinet.

The only thing worse than the old "goodie bag still stapled" is "I've had this game since it was new 4 years ago and it only has 63 plays" (with screen shot that shows audits of 63 plays). The audits are way to easy to reset to even mention in a way to imply a games freshness. I don't think most buyers care if it has 63 played or 63,000 as long as the game is in great shape and they can see that.

For the most part, I would think that anyone that bought a NIB game would have a receipt of some kind....except on rare occasions.

I honestly want a new selling abbreviation: LNO (legs never off) meaning the game was bought new, the legs were put on and it has never been broke down or moved since the day the legs were first attached. I mean with HUO it's not mentioning how many homes it has been used in. LNO you know it's a 1 owner, bought new and never moved....and that's still not a guarantee of quality, so even that is pretty pointless.

Too true!

Although, unless I am mistaken, some of the new Sterns were specifically made for the home market and we can specify them as HUO, right? Other than that, you guys are right that HUO is nebulous at best.

In the short time i've been in the hobby, I've learned not to care if someone says HUO or routed or shopped, etc...

I very quickly learned to just look at the machine myself and decide if it's worth the money.

I am going to fix them up to near-mint anyway, so it really doesnt matter.

I guess I don't understand, this whole HUO thing as all an assessment of condition......right. (Yes I know what HUO Means)

You see HUO you think in excellent condition with little use. It has become a catch phrase, and people are calling non HUO machines HUO, and like HUO. But then a real HUO owner can't find the receipt and people act like its worth less....

A machine is worth what its worth based on condition, I purchased an HUO Demo Man, and it has scratches on the head, and a broken head. I have also purchased an HUO high speed, that clearly has never been waxed, and had been nudged so damn much the cabinet looked great, but the around the legs really bad.

So are these worth more because the owner had the receipt? Heck every operator out there has a receipt too, guess those can be proven HUO?

My opinion the term HUO pinball, was used so people could envision how "perfect" the game is because it was HUO. Now I agree, people should not use the term HUO if it is not HUO, however the value of the machine does not change if there is no receipt. If you see the "HUO" machine, and it is like it just came out of the box, with 100 plays on it, then it is what it is, and worth what its worth. Even if you find out that is was on location somewhere for a couple of months.

This HUO fixation has become pointless really, go look at the machine and buy it if you like it. Also people can quit putting "I think it is HUO, but can't prove it" unless you bought it, or bought it from the guy who bought it new, then you shouldn't make the claim.

I have an HUO CSI, receipt and all, but for all I know the guy I bought it from routed it......condition says otherwise (perfect) but the term is subjective and in my opinion simply meant to clarify condition. Ultimately you just need to verify condition, where it sat for the last 2 years is irrelevant.

I have my purchase orders with my name on them.

To me, condition is king, not pedigree.

Having said that, to some, the pedigree is important.

But, it may be impossible to prove pedigree.

So what if a guy has a receipt for a NIB MM from his distributor. The receipt never said he didn't have it earning its living in a bar.

Even if it's in good condition, and isn't all smoky, it doesn't mean it has never been operated.

There are lots of things people see on pins and decide they are either HUO, or they aren't.

"That MM isn't HUO, because it has a lockdown bar!" - First off, it has a *HASP*, all pins have a lockdown bar - and all MMs have hasp holes, because they had them from the factory.

"That MM isn't HUO, because it has wear on the coin slots!" - Still could be HUO, I've repaired a number of pins in homes where people had no clue the game could be set on free play.

"That MM isn't HUO, because it's filthy, and has someone's initials carved in the side!" - Not all homes are *good* homes. Kids vandalize stuff. People don't maintain games. Heck, I saw one (not a MM) where the owner repainted the game to match their furniture And then, there are the games where people run drywall screws into the outlanes so the ball won't drain, or hammers a nail into the playfield to keep a ball from making it to a saucer because the solenoid died, and they got tired of removing the glass to pop the ball out of the saucer.

Would you rather have a well-maintained MM that has been operated in smoke-free locations and received light play, or a game that was in a home and beat to death?

That, to me, is why condition is king And, I like to polish turds to 'like new' condition, or what some folks call 'better than NIB condition' - so worn out stuff and dirt don't bother me.

I have original purchase orders along with the original shipping receipt. Plus, I know some people think its dumb, but I still have the "made in USA" sticker on my glass for Tron.

Regardless of what proof someone has, invoice, shipping receipt, etc, in 5 years, how sure can a buyer be that you didn't drag the game to a pinball show, or operate it in a location for a few months?

If you take good care of it, and keep it nice, that's what is important

I think HUO is to pinballs what "mostly freeway miles" is to used cars - a way for the seller to justify tacking on a few more $. I generally ignore the HUO portion of any ad, and look only at the condition. As mentioned, a HUO doesn't mean it wasn't rode hard and put away wet. This is besides the fact that the HUO claim is sometimes utter BS - such as HUO ads that show a machine that clearly had a lock bar on it.

And again as you said, who cares? Obviously, people do -- but of the HUO machines that I have owned, one of them I got had such horrible playfield wear I swapped playfields on it.

The other thing, and probably a big part of the rise of the HUO machine "proof" needed is that there seems to have been a decent number of people lately claiming that their machines are HUO for X years. Like my Jurassic Park -- It is HUO! (for the last 18 years.) Doesn't mean that it wasn't operated once upon a time, but when sellers do that it skews the term somewhat.

I prefer collector quality over HUO just about any day.

Do most people agree with this? I recently acquired a LOTR with the goody bag still stapled to the cabinet, and I have been debating whether or not I should remove it. I'd prefer to pull everything out of there, but I was afraid it might hurt the resale value of the game down the road if I do.

HA, I read the title and was confused at first because I thought it read "HUO Poof".

Gweem was all: I recently acquired a LOTR with the goody bag still stapled to the cabinet, and I have been debating whether or not I should remove it. I'd prefer to pull everything out of there, but I was afraid it might hurt the resale value of the game down the road if I do.

-----

Well, we're looking for the future of sales, I'm thinking any sale you do will have a different bluebook value. 'presumed HUO, owned by gweem on pinside, member/moderator for xxx years, karma of 100k+'.

So naturally, you can add at least 3k to that price right?

_{Post edited by Blakesell : added smiley, really, that wasn't that serious!}

Almost no HUO can be proven. Receipts dont mean that the owner didnt put it in his restaurant which closed 5 years later and brought it back home....

However, in my reference it is:

* cabinet that shows no sign of any physical wear - from being moved at all after unboxing. Gouges, scratches, cig burns, paint wear on the head, nicks, dents in the rails should not be there.
* no color fade - at all anywhere. No exception. People dont put pinball machines in their kitchens.
* no smoke, finger print filth or gum inside, outside, under or behind
* no smell or staining inside.
* no misc parts, cigarettes, gum, tokens, broken glass etc found in the machine.
* almost no wear under legs.
* no rust or pitting ever.

Of course, some of this can happen in a home. Sure. But in my case, a HUO game was not played very hard, not around smoke, have beer stains or gum. Doesnt have kids gouging their initials in them. It should look as good as your home stereo speakers. Sure, the wife may accidentally put a candle on it or a beer gets knocked over. But a home owner usually gets that cleaned up quick without notice.

Legs never off is meaningless too, Batman forever and Southpark were both delivered to me with legs on. The pinball pro i traded for them with has a special rig on his truck just for moving pins this way. It was pretty neat.

To my eyes, HUO is only shorthand for "very good condition"

If i get a routed machine that is in better shape than a HUO, I will buy the routed machine. (granted that rarely happens, but you get my drift)

I have never seen a routed machine better than any HUO, but im sure it is possible. Usually, you can tell visually right away if a game has ever been in a public/commercial environment. Even for only a year, the signs are always there

Just ask Rommy how LNO works!

I am going to start an acronym for machines that are gouged to hell around the legs.

STS condition!

Shook To Sh*t. I have a nice STS HUO Pinball machine for sale. Everything is perfect, its HUO, but the legs were loose and I STS out of my machines, but its worth a lot more since its HUO

I don't have receipts for any of my games. All were purchased NIB. I do take pics of the box with the SN and also take pics of the unboxing in my home. That should be sufficient.

Can we make fun of this yet? Its been a while right? That still makes me sad when I see the pics of that poor LOTR. LNO haha. In that case this would be the worst thing you could do.

HUO to me means that the pin is in great shape with only home use wear which is minimal. Also a home game with 3000 plays on it will look much better then a routed game with 3000 plays on it bc the home game prob got waxed 40 times where the routed game only got waxed 1 or 2 times. This will beat the game up more and look more used.

When I got my Tron delivered I took picks of it coming off the truck into my house and setup pics. If you came to buy it you will see that it is in the same spot that I set it up in so I think that is as good as proof as you can get. Other then this there is no proof a game is HUO and I think like a few others that it means a game is in great shape and almost looks like it just came out of the box.

I have a HUO LOTR and if i were to sell it I would not say its HUO bc it has been through alot. My X wife did not take care of it and stuffed it in a shed for 2 years. They also bumped and scraped it from moving it around and when they secured the head they used rope and it was not even tight so now i have a scuff mark on the head from them moving the pin around (no cardboard between) and the head flapping an inch or 2 repeatedly. I just got angry at her again for doing this to my pin so now i need a cig....what a f in #itch.

For my NIB pins, I took pics while un-boxing, kept original receipts and I kept the boxes. All show the serial number. I suppose that doesn't prove it's been in my house since purchased.

All of my pins are HUO....since I bought them. I think that's what it means.

hmmmm...come on of course. prolly make me feel better. I still don't have it, still at Chad's.

I have had verifiable HUO (gah, that sounds bad) several times. That might mean I know the person, they would not lie, and so that is good enough for me. Or it might mean receipts. I prefer mine HUO(mint) if at all possible and will pay extra for that if I can get satisfactory verification. Just a personal preference, I like to know where mine have been.

what just happened there?

I think the term is very abused. Everyone is looking for top dollar even if there pin quality does not demand it. Just my opinion.

OK...I remember seeing those pics. That was a poor (but technically could have been) example of a LNO pin.

Your opinion sums it very well! I think 3/4's of pins that were for sale in the last 5 years have been 'HUO'!

Actually, I visited the home of a pinball addict just outside of Atlanta who had a whole row of pins in his kitchen. All 80's classics. In fact, there wasn't a room (except the bathroom), or storage closet that wasn't jammed with pins, yes every square inch of floor space was occupied... sad really.

But, I digress.

HUO is kind of like trying to define 'collector-quality' -- way too much latitude there as well.

In my vocabulary, the word "Pristine" means a whole, heck of a lot more to me than "HUO" does. Tell me you can't get your head around something that is described as pristine
-- there, see what I mean?

I am not sure about proving Home use only...but for a cost you could certainly prove low usage, or very minimal use. It would not be cheap but the stress on the solder connections would be an example of what could be checked. Heat/expansion signatures are pretty darn accurate from my dealings with them. A signature is a signature and most all things in life have one...a pin on 12 hours day and a pin on 4 hours per week certainly would have them. Again, takes $$$ to xray areas like this professionally.

It would be great if folks were generally honest. I mean...like others in the thread mentioned already, actual condition is everything. Either the pin makes it or it doesn't during a visual inspection. Like a car...the ad could say, "Only driven on Sunday 1 mile to and from church by my grandmother". One look through the tire rims and noticing about 10% brake pad remaining may indicate otherwise...or at the least that grandma's church was 200 miles away each week and all city driving with stop and go traffic, lol.

I agree about the honesty, but I think preference has a lot to do with it. I have seen operators who would look into my eyes and say, "That's a clean machine over there," and I have seen dust bunnies playing bouncing off the pop bumpers on the playfield!

I just think that certain people can live with raised inserts or (...gulp...) visible wood. For us pinheads, I don't think it's a viable option.

I bet you keep the stickers on your ball caps too
(just ribbing you)

You need a video surveillance tape of the game in the home. 24/7 since it was new.
But to verify that HUO TZ you need to look at 19 years of footage.
Actually, the newer Sterns (SAM) are getting better about this.
They have the Non-resettable lifetime plays and earnings audits.
But that too will probly be figured out, and people will always lie about this shit.
Not to mention HUO can be played more than a route game, that was also waxed regularly.
As others have said, just look at the game closely, It will tell it's own story.
-DNO-

The term HUO doesn't mean squat to me, other than, it does peak my interest. But as others have said, condition is all that matters to me. Here are three pics of a HUO MM a buddy sent me a couple years ago to shop out. This is the way the game came to me. I haven't done anything to it yet.

Now if this game were offered to you at a decent price, are you going to ask if the owner can prove it's HUO? I'm not.

042.JPG 043.JPG 045.JPG

This is exactly the case..

I have a HUO Sopranos, with flipper button wear, although minimal it is there, as most Soprano's are prone to that in short order after unboxing... the paint used in the silk screening process is very inferior to say the least...

It also has some mild shooter lane wear....

But both the original owner and my buddy i got it from, played the crap out of it...it probably got more play between those 2 and myself than it would have pout on route...

it also has a couple of small scuffs...maybe he brought it in by himself down a 2 course flight of stairs..i dont know..but things happen....

At the end of the day wear happens, if they get played.....

Btw both previous owner did clean and maintain the game as well....it just happens

the game still looks and playus great, and is in much better shape thatn 98% of every other example of that title i have seen...