(Topic ID: 176184)

How Would Everyone Feel If Stern Was Gone?


By Dooskie

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by RyanStl
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#1 2 years ago

I read sooooo many negative things about Stern on Pinside, mainly about their quality control issues and their prices. I have only bought one NIB machine, a Star Trek Pro, and I guess I just got lucky (knock on wood). The only thing that was wrong with it was a playfield light that was loose. And now a year later, I've put 3,500 games on it and all I've done is clean the playfield every week or two. I couldn't be happier. That being said, with all of the problems that I've read about, I don't know if I'd buy another one.

So I'm curious, would everyone rather just see Stern close up its doors and go away, rather than working through the quality control issues and the price increases? I know there are other companies that are making very nice machines, but it doesn't look like they have the infrastructure in place to produce nearly enough machines to keep up with the current demand, which in turn would only lead to even higher prices.

Do you think pinball would be better off without Stern, given the current climate and feelings towards the company?

14
#2 2 years ago
Quoted from Dooskie:

Do you think pinball would be better off without Stern, given the current climate and feelings towards the company?

Seriously? Of course not.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

No

Seriously? Of course not.

I agree with you. However, with all of the negativity towards the company, everyone that is going to 'speak with their wallets' and not buy any more pins from them, it makes you wonder how the community really feels about the company.

19
#4 2 years ago

We may find out some day

Stern is pulling a "Blockbuster Video"

Thats where a business gets arrogant, squanders their edge, shits on the customers & then files BK

There's a lot of clowns in this hobby with hard ons for incomplete hyped dick measuring games tho so maybe the next SLE will be $20K?

Also your post was written lopsided. No one wants Stern to disappear.... until a better alternative surfaces

#5 2 years ago

The only thing that was wrong with it was a playfield light that was loose. And now a year later, I've put 3,500 games on it and all I've done is clean the playfield every week or two. I couldn't be happier. That being said, with all of the problems that I've read about, I don't know if I'd buy another one.

So, you couldn't be happier...Except for what you read...Stop reading. Play your machine. Be happy.

19
#6 2 years ago

Dude, you start the worst threads

Change your name to Dookie

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Grinder901:

Dude, you start the worst threads
Change your name to Dookie

Yeah I dont trust the cat either.

The way this opening thread was written is shady.

-1
#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Grinder901:

Dude, you start the worst threads
Change your name to Dookie

If you don't like them, then don't read them.

#9 2 years ago

Few would like it. However, being critical of stern is not about wanting them to go away but wanting them to sort their shit out. Criticisms of quality control and code (at least in some cases maybe not all) are fully justified. Fortunately Stern does have some competition now and if they did go away there would be others to step in.

#10 2 years ago

I'd feel cold and lonely......maybe confused

#11 2 years ago

If anyone reading those threads feels that people are taking the stance that they want Stern to go out of business is beyond help.

All of the negativity focused around them is getting back to a point for which their pricing structure matches the output of their product. People are just pissed because they are paying substantially more for less with less quality.

If the new games coming out got you Metallica, AC/DC, TWD, etc code without PF issues then you wouldn't see nearly the amount of complaining. You will still see some because some people just like to hear themselves speak (it's pinside after all). One a perfect example of this, you don't see much complaining from GOT Pro owner. Good code at launch and generally good quality. Now go to GB. Good code at launch but very poor quality (from air balls, inlane bounce overs and PF issues).

#12 2 years ago

I wouldn't really care because they make so few games that I actually enjoy playing (and most of the ones I do like are from years ago). My biggest concern would be the effect on prices of 2nd hand games. I used to think Stern getting out of the market would force up prices by limiting the total supply of machines, but I'm not so sure now. Stern's practice of arbitrarily jacking up the prices for new games has dragged up the prices of those older games as well. Take that out of the equation and maybe the price of 2nd hand games wouldn't move much at all.

#13 2 years ago

Stern is a tough nut. The fact they are VC controlled is a real problem because though they are not publicly held, they are forced to act in that manner. So, rather than building support and community as a normal small family owned business would they will instead be expected to deliver ever increasing profits every quarter. This only explains the QC and BOM declines as to Why they have some of the worst PR, marketing, warranty, etc. in the world I have no idea.

For example if Charlie at Spooky was worth millions and able to quickly scale Spooky to Stern's output and licensing capabilities and go head to head against Stern, I doubt many would shed a tear if Stern closed.

#14 2 years ago

I would sit in my dark closet in fetal position thinking that perhaps if I had just given them every last dime I had I could have saved them and payed for Garys Daughter to go to Hawaii for her honeymoon.

#15 2 years ago

This is just such a dumb thread. Nobody has ever said that they want stern gone. People just want everyone to stop buying from stern until the lost profits cause the to produce better quality and stop price gouging, go back to the price structure when metallica came out. They were still making good money on them then.

-1
#16 2 years ago

I think pinball wld be just fine now it they weren't around as there's plenty of other companies now and a mass amount of games out there. I for one wld not care if they left the game and by the way they have been going about things they may be heading out the business.....

#17 2 years ago

The more pinball companies there are, the better it will be for consumers. No manufacturer right now can crank out games the way they can. Sure they have some issues to work out, but most companies do. I wish them nothing but the best and hope they are around a long long time.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

This is just such a dumb thread. Nobody has ever said that they want stern gone. People just want everyone to stop buying from stern until the lost profits cause the to produce better quality and stop price gouging, go back to the price structure when metallica came out. They were still making good money on them then.

Metallica came out in 2013. We're within a couple of weeks of 2017. What in this world costs the same now as it did in 2017? Employees expect raises. It costs more to run a business now than it did four years ago. Please explain how on earth they could sell games for the same price four years later and stay in business?

I get it that people are pissed that Stern has made it more difficult for people that flip games to make any money, by jacking up the prices on the LE's, etc. That's actually smart on their part. Someone there obviously noticed what was going on. I wonder how everyone would feel if they decided to open a division where they sold parts and toys, and decided to model that division after Amazon. Inexpensive parts, inexpensive toys, free shipping, and they run all of the smaller parts/toys businesses out of business. Amazon proved that price is king and there is very little loyalty when it comes to money.

#19 2 years ago

Do I like Stern games. No! Do I have any in my collection. No! Do I want them to go out of business. Hell no! The more companies out their competing for our business, the better.

#20 2 years ago

dont let the door...

They honestly would not be missed at all for me personally.
There are plenty of other things I like more about this hobby than new Sterns and plenty of other new and quality games out there. I mean really.... how many NIB games are people buying each year? I think I would be plenty good with a 1 per year JJP, Spooky, and Heighway release.

I personally think Stern is gearing up and cooking the books for a sale. The whole SLE thing smells like it to me. The numbers look great after BM66 delivers and someone may be dumb enough to buy them up at the height. I think they may miss the timing of this plan given the current economy and shift looming.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

Do I like Stern games. No! Do I have any in my collection. No! Do I want them to go out of business. Hell no! The more companies out their competing for our business, the better.

Why do people keep saying this?

There's no immutable law that says the more pinball companies there Are, the better it is for consumers.

MM is one of the best games of all time and there were barely 2 manufacturers at the time and it was cheap. There are about 8 pinball companies now and prices are higher than ever and games aren't any better than they were 20 years ago. In fact, prices started to skyrocket as soon as we started adding pinball companies.

So please stop saying that. It's total nonsense.

#22 2 years ago

Relieved. No more hardware lacking software!

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Why do people keep saying this?
There's no immutable law that says the more pinball companies there Are, the better it is for consumers.
MM is one of the best games of all time and there were barely 2 manufacturers at the time. There are about 8 pinball companies now and prices are higher than ever and games aren't any better than they were 20 years ago. In fact, prices started to skyrocket as soon as we started adding pinball companies.
So please stop saying that. It's total nonsense.

It's definitely a unique situation where prices rose after JJP doubled the pin manufacturers but it is important to remember that JJP also entered the market with a substantially higher MSRP (did Stern make LEs yet?). If there was a pin company that actually competed with Stern at the pro price and manufacturing capability, we might see prices lower but it's doubtful that will ever happen.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Why do people keep saying this?
There's no immutable law that says the more pinball companies there Are, the better it is for consumers.
MM is one of the best games of all time and there were barely 2 manufacturers at the time. There are about 8 pinball companies now and prices are higher than ever and games aren't any better than they were 20 years ago. In fact, prices started to skyrocket as soon as we started adding pinball companies.
So please stop saying that. It's total nonsense.

Ok, I'll bite.

And how many games were B/W cranking out, both in terms of number of titles per year and number of units per title? A lot! The industry won't grow with just a few choices of games every few years. There are maybe 4-5 games in production outside of stern right now in any kind of significant size, maybe less (th, WOZ, Rz, amh, tbl, DI soon, ?) and there hasn't been much new from them in a while besides DI. Stern also generates excitement for the industry, whether you like that or not, it is good for pinball. Look at show attendance, for example.

Prices started increasing as more pinball companies came in because of demand not because there were more pinball companies. Look how many beercades have opened, how many pins are now showing up in the wild. That is the result of stern and, to a lesser extent, JJP. Still, the price increase is irrelevant. If you don't like it, don't buy. There are very few games that you can't get significantly cheaper huo.

And the games today are as good or better than many in the 90s from sound, art, rules, theme, display, etc. ACDC, Metallica, TWD are fantastic games, IMO.

#25 2 years ago

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#26 2 years ago

I think most of the criticism comes from those that either never bought a nib Stern to begin with or no plans to buy one anytime soon. People been saying that sort of thing for a while but yet Stern can't keep up with demand. No one is happy about higher prices and qc issues but pinball has never been a sensable hobby. Whether a pin is $4000 or $150000, most normal people think that is completely nuts. Yet some pinheads think one pin is a deal for $8500 and another a ripoff at $5500. People buy LE's when you can get the exact same game for much, much less in a premium. But wait, the side art and backglass are a little different. Makes no sense yet here we all are.

#27 2 years ago

'Pick two' as the saying goes.

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

So, you couldn't be happier...Except for what you read...Stop reading. Play your machine. Be happy.

But who can stop with just one machine? And if I didn't keep up with reading Pinside, I would never have known about all of the issues everyone was having with the bad playfields, etc. So while I'm happy with the ST Pro that I bought, I don't know that I'd be so willing to buy another NIB game. Seems risky right now, wouldn't you agree?

#29 2 years ago

I am fine with it. As long as they wait until I buy Aerosmith, Jaws, Star Wars and Pulp Fiction. Oh, and they fix the stupid Kiss code.

#30 2 years ago

Stern is the only *major* manufacturer. They can crank out thousands of games and multiple titles per year. Nobody else has the means to do that (yet?). If they bow out without there being another manufacturer about equal in size, then pinball would would probably be in trouble. Volume, availability, consistency are important, as are new products/titles.

JJP is the next largest manufacturer based on volume, but the number of titles they have been doing is far lower than what stern releases and is comparable to smaller boutique manufacturers. Plus they haven't quite been able to stick to a schedule so far. But, they still created some much needed competition in the world of pinball design and manufacturing.

Spooky, Heighway, and Dutch Pinball are all smaller manufactures with lower volume. It's been great seeing their games in the mix, but long-term viability is unclear (as in, will they still be manufacturing games 10, 20, or 30 years from now?) Most small businesses struggle to reach the 3 and 5 year marks. But, pinball folks are largely enthusiastic people, so if they have been able to deliver at least two titles, their prospects probably look good.

#31 2 years ago

I'm hoping we can get 3 or 4 more manufacturers so prices go even higher.

It'll be great for consumers!

#32 2 years ago

We NEED a good pinball company like Stern. Though it doesn't have to be Stern. Reality is that $12000 pinball machines might cause more manufacturers to join in (as we have seen). Competition is good for the consumer. Lack of competition means poor quality, poor service, high prices, etc.

If another good company come in and takes market share, you never know.

I think if you traveled back into the mid 90's people would have thought Williams would have been the last man standing. Things change....

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

We may find out some day
Stern is pulling a "Blockbuster Video"
Thats where a business gets arrogant, squanders their edge, shits on the customers & then files BK
There's a lot of clowns in this hobby with hard ons for incomplete hyped dick measuring games tho so maybe the next SLE will be $20K?
Also your post was written lopsided. No one wants Stern to disappear.... until a better alternative surfaces

Not the best of comparisons....the internet, downloads, and Redbox, all effectively killed the brick & mortar rental store market.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Not the best of comparisons....the internet, downloads, and Redbox, all effectively killed the brick & mortar rental store market.

It's a horrible comparison that is worse than any cargument we've ever seen here.

Might as well compare it to the medicinal leech market of the 1500s.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's a horrible comparison that is worse than any cargument we've ever seen here.
Might as well compare it to the medicinal leech market of the 1500s.

What, not everyone needs a good bleeding?

#36 2 years ago

At its core Stern, like any other company, is a business: plain and simple. It's the hobbyist part of what they build that makes it confusing for many. Let me explain...

Personally, my career has been in the music business, which has always been mentally tough for me to pair up those two words (as opposed to a field like say "tax accounting" or "weapons manufacturing"). The word "music" is associated with something most of us greatly enjoy, consider entertainment, and that is done purely for the love of it. Many hobbyists are musicians. Awesome! Yet at a more professional level, "music" must be inextricably tied to the word "business" (which means that food and shelter must be generated from it). Right there, you have a bit of a tension to constantly manage: what is best for business isn't always best for the music; what is best for the music may not in fact be the most "commercially viable."

Similarly though, Stern has to walk the line in their "entertainment business." Things like getting their parts (i.e.: playfields) from a manufacturer who gives them the lowest price within suitable tolerance of turnaround and QC (this is just 1 of potentially 1,000s of tensions Stern has to manage). We as hobbyists need to stop being so surprised by cost-cutting or feature reduction or price increases or their new model of having 3 different versions. Gary Stern isn't a bad guy at all; he's also not the patron saint of pinball. Dude is a businessman that happens to make products that you and I deeply enjoy! I bet he's got a beautiful summer home with a nice boat. More power to him.

All that said, I DO think that Stern needs to seriously up their game as it relates to QC and customer service. I've read the horror stories and seen the pics. No, I don't think it's okay to ship a warped playfield with cracked clearcoat, BUT I also don't think they do this on purpose. Furthermore, from what I've seen, Stern has in fact been getting better at taking care of their customers with posts saying that Gary has called them personally, or Stern shipping out a brand new playfield that only takes 15 minutes to install, etc... Furthermore, they're clearly listening to their constituency as it relates to gameplay (compare "24" to "MET" or "GB"), artwork (same comparison), and feature inclusion (LCD over red dots).

I'm not a huge Stern fan (I currently own 1 Stern, and that's a Nine Ball. Even that game is technically sold awaiting pickup!), but I do think we as hobbyists need the keep the "business" side of this thing in check: if Gary and co can raise their price of their games and they continue to sell, more power to them. If not, then the market will not bear it and we may very well see the "Blockbuster" of pinball. There's plenty of games out there for us to play if we don't like the price increase. If they sell out, they sell out (Gottlieb did it like 8 times!). If they prevail, they prevail. In the meantime, let's enjoy our hobby and keep flipping!

#37 2 years ago

Stern was the only company to survive the dark times through the end of the 90's and the 2,000's.

They will continue on for some time. They know the market. $15k for a game? insane? I think so too.

However, 80 other people did not think so and all 80 sold out sight unseen. as well as how ever many le's they are making. like it or not, the prices will keep rising as people with the money will keep buying.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

This is just such a dumb thread.

And yet it will probably get countless posts saying the same things about Stern that have already been stated in countless other previous threads.

#39 2 years ago

Relieved............

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

At its core Stern, like any other company, is a business: plain and simple. It's the hobbyist part of what they build that makes it confusing for many. Let me explain...
Personally, my career has been in the music business, which has always been mentally tough for me to pair up those two words (as opposed to a field like say "tax accounting" or "weapons manufacturing"). The word "music" is associated with something most of us greatly enjoy, consider entertainment, and that is done purely for the love of it. Many hobbyists are musicians. Awesome! Yet at a more professional level, "music" must be inextricably tied to the word "business" (which means that food and shelter must be generated from it). Right there, you have a bit of a tension to constantly manage: what is best for business isn't always best for the music; what is best for the music may not in fact be the most "commercially viable."
Similarly though, Stern has to walk the line in their "entertainment business." Things like getting their parts (i.e.: playfields) from a manufacturer who gives them the lowest price within suitable tolerance of turnaround and QC (this is just 1 of potentially 1,000s of tensions Stern has to manage). We as hobbyists need to stop being so surprised by cost-cutting or feature reduction or price increases or their new model of having 3 different versions. Gary Stern isn't a bad guy at all; he's also not the patron saint of pinball. Dude is a businessman that happens to make products that you and I deeply enjoy! I bet he's got a beautiful summer home with a nice boat. More power to him.
All that said, I DO think that Stern needs to seriously up their game as it relates to QC and customer service. I've read the horror stories and seen the pics. No, I don't think it's okay to ship a warped playfield with cracked clearcoat, BUT I also don't think they do this on purpose. Furthermore, from what I've seen, Stern has in fact been getting better at taking care of their customers with posts saying that Gary has called them personally, or Stern shipping out a brand new playfield that only takes 15 minutes to install, etc... Furthermore, they're clearly listening to their constituency as it relates to gameplay (compare "24" to "MET" or "GB"), artwork (same comparison), and feature inclusion (LCD over red dots).
I'm not a huge Stern fan (I currently own 1 Stern, and that's a Nine Ball. Even that game is technically sold awaiting pickup!), but I do think we as hobbyists need the keep the "business" side of this thing in check: if Gary and co can raise their price of their games and they continue to sell, more power to them. If not, then the market will not bear it and we may very well see the "Blockbuster" of pinball. There's plenty of games out there for us to play if we don't like the price increase. If they sell out, they sell out (Gottlieb did it like 8 times!). If they prevail, they prevail. In the meantime, let's enjoy our hobby and keep flipping!

My feelings exactly, I'm glad you wrote this so I don't waste time trying to be sensible. Of course if Stern did close these same people would just end up making one of the remaining companies their next focal point to complain about.

10
#41 2 years ago

i'll keep buying cheaper older games like I have been doing.

#42 2 years ago

Saying we want Stern to go out of business would be silly. I don't care for them but a lot of you do so why would I want to ruin it for you. I would like them to be realistic with their prices and to make a better quality product but not go belly up. I cant buy shit anymore anyway so it doesn't matter.

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from Dooskie:

Metallica came out in 2013. We're within a couple of weeks of 2017. What in this world costs the same now as it did in 2017? Employees expect raises. It costs more to run a business now than it did four years ago. Please explain how on earth they could sell games for the same price four years later and stay in business?
I get it that people are pissed that Stern has made it more difficult for people that flip games to make any money, by jacking up the prices on the LE's, etc. That's actually smart on their part. Someone there obviously noticed what was going on. I wonder how everyone would feel if they decided to open a division where they sold parts and toys, and decided to model that division after Amazon. Inexpensive parts, inexpensive toys, free shipping, and they run all of the smaller parts/toys businesses out of business. Amazon proved that price is king and there is very little loyalty when it comes to money.

Pin prices shot way up, they did not go up with inflation or rising costs of employees or materials...not even close. Now were they saleing to cheap before?...possibly but now they are extremely overpriced IMO.

I don't mind that they raised prices to be more profitable which is to be expected but when you raise prices that screws all your customers then that is a recipe to piss people off..which has been done IMO. I however do not blame just Stern as they still offer a pro version which is by far the cheapest. A lot of people complain that the pro is scaled way back versions but a lot of people prefer the pro and argue over which is better.

MET, GOT, GB, as well as others are good value pro's and some believe the pro to be the better version of these games. Heck even the premium is still among the cheapest compared to the other companies.

Stern was shown they can raise prices by the other companies. I just wish they would have raised prices a bit to become more profitable but kept them more reasonable and their previous customer base happier. To me if prices were $4800, $5500, $6200, Stern would have raised prices quite a bit but kept most people in the game that were previously in it. A lot of people that stuck with Stern before all the new blood showed up and caused prices to skyrocket are now priced out.

#44 2 years ago

what Stern has been doing over the last decade is not making pinball better, per say... they have been strengthening their position in the hobby so they could raise prices and in turn make more profit. They are not in this because they think it's cool and they want to carry pinball on IMO. They are carrying pinball on because of the profit.

#45 2 years ago

Stern=Sega=Data East, there all the same to me but more technology through the years and cost cutting here and there it seems. My experience with Stern in my short time buying games has been great and shitty at same time. Buy a NIB that stuff doesnt work right on so they send new parts no questions, ghosted playfield ok they send another one, cracked plastics they send a complete set, ghosted replacement playfield who knows what there going to do.

Do i want them to go belly up NO, do i want them to stop being shaddy in some situations Yes. Prices are less important to me then the games actually working correctly and not falling apart with in 50 plays like they do now. im in this hobby for pure FUN not to sell my games at what i pay for them so Stern please stay in business but fire the assholes running QC!

#46 2 years ago

Stern won't disappear. They could fix it all in a month or two. Get the playfields built where they used to, get pricing in line, and they will fly out of the factory. They know how to do this industry better than anyone.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballlew:

Pin prices shot way up, they did not go up with inflation or rising costs of employees or materials...not even close. Now were they saleing to cheap before?...possibly but now they are extremely overpriced IMO.
I don't mind that they raised prices to be more profitable which is to be expected but when you raise prices that screws all your customers then that is a recipe to piss people off..which has been done IMO. I however do not blame just Stern as they still offer a pro version which is by far the cheapest. A lot of people complain that the pro is scaled way back versions but a lot of people prefer the pro and argue over which is better.
MET, GOT, GB, as well as others are good value pro's and some believe the pro to be the better version of these games. Heck even the premium is still among the cheapest compared to the other companies.
Stern was shown they can raise prices by the other companies. I just wish they would have raised prices a bit to become more profitable but kept them more reasonable and their previous customer base happier. To me if prices were $4800, $5500, $6200, Stern would have raised prices quite a bit but kept most people in the game that were previously in it. A lot of people that stuck with Stern before all the new blood showed up and caused prices to skyrocket are now priced out.

So if you were Stern, and you noticed there was quite a market for people to flip a NIB purchase, wouldn't you try to go after a piece of that? Other companies have certainly done that. eBay and Amazon both come to mind. I have no doubt they knew they would piss some people off in the process, and maybe lose a few customers along the way. But I'm also sure they balanced that against what their net gain would be. And if they get more pushback than what they planned for, they can drop the price back a hundred or two and the majority of the complaints will quickly subside.

#48 2 years ago

Would love to see someone like Gomez take over the company. I think it's time for Gary to step aside. He seems to only care about the bottom line. His sarcasm regarding recent QC issues is insulting to say the least.

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from thundergod76:

Would love to see someone like Gomez take over the company. I think it's time for Gary to step aside. He seems to only care about the bottom line. His sarcasm regarding recent QC issues is insulting to say the least.

I doubt you can lay this all on Gary the figure head for Stern pinball...the changes came when they took on investors which are not going away.

-1
#50 2 years ago

It only took one boring ass seminar years ago to realize that Gary Stern wants to make money and couldn't care less about pins or the people who buy them.

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