not in the last 30 years

Bro, chill. That's one of the most insensitive comments I've ever seen in a post. Seriously? It's very important to preserve our history for future generations to experience, share, appreciate and love. Don't tell me you've never been to a museum? And don't tell me you didn't find it interesting and fascinating?

Now think, if those people who work so hard at preserving these amazing world treasures took your position and attitude. Scary right?

I think that pinball has to become more of a spectacle to draw in new players and game play will be second. I think just as many new people would throw a few quarters into WOZ irregardless of what the game play was. Put together a cheap package with lots of flashing lights, a few toys, some LCD displays, and few good call outs and you have something that makes money. It is almost like pinball needs to be rediscovered. The machine has to be an odd goofy skill game that no one can pass up on trying. As much as some of you shit on South Park, it made money. I would also bet that mammoth beast Hercules pulls in more than Star Trek or Tron on location. I think pinball has to get goofy to grab everyone's attention. More companies have to strike out with something different like Pin2k if they want to survive the next 20 years.

nope. I remember playing it as a kid when it was new. Played it once, walked away. Played it at expo a couple years ago (once) for nostalgia purposes, still sucked.

But I get your point, pinball DOES need to be odd. Themes are getting stale, just as much as arcades games are. You no longer have a "racing" game, you have fast n furious, or Hummer, or ferrari, and arcades are turning into redemption centers as a result. You look at all the classic arcade games, they didn't have the luxury of fancy graphics, they had to make due with very few pixels, so they dreamt up weird games like Qbert, and food fight, and donkey kong.

Something can "suck" and still make money. A claw or skee ball machine aren't things you would play for a few hours straight but as I understand it, they are better earners than pinball.

Pinball will do OK for the next decade or 2 but once we start dying off en mass, there will be no way to support factories making new games.

Yeah some 20-something might want some retro fun, just like the odd 20-something now wants a classic juke, but it won't be enough to support new game development and it will effectively be over.

But in the end, so what? We are into pinball because we like it. Our children will do something else because they like that.

I think the key is producing games more fitted for home use.
This means lighter, smaller and less noisy games. Also the interchangeable pf will be a key factor in it.

I second that - leapyears ahead of anyone else at this time....

I always believe this was one of the fundamental reasons for pinball's decline. Casual pinball players didn't want all the faff with the complex machined but enjoyed the simpler ones.

Every pinball collector has been a non player and also a casual player at some point in their lives.

I guess we could simplify further....... Pat Lawlor killed pinball.

I think evolving the TOPS tournament model for the LCD/internet age would help. I think the current implementation in Stern games is a little too obscure for the casual bargoer to understand.

How about JJP implements a similar system, but with the benefit of a full LCD to promote, explain, and show the leaderboard and pot? And the ability to check your standing online? (User checks phone: whoa! I fell to 2nd! Better get to the bar tonight and fix that). Most bars have wifi now. Don't Golden Tee/BBH have a similar thing, and aren't they the biggest displacers of pins?

He hit perfection at Whrilwind. Then, too much of a good thing followed.....

I think JJP is on the right track with making feature loaded games and using modern tech in their machines. I also think that JJP can bring in more players if they implement a profile system that can run across various machines using the internet. Imagine creating a player profile on a new JJP website that can be used on any JJP pin. The profile could keep track of game stats, high scores, locations played, avatar picture, etc. The internet portion of the idea could allow for tournaments and the ability to keep track of tournament results on the machine and the stat tracking website. The concept could be taken even further with a mobile app that you log into using your profile ID, keep track of stats that and even be alerted when someone beats your high score. To "log" into location, or home, machines JJP could leverage the NFC chips found on many of our phones and have a built in NFC reader on pins.

The one big thing probably holding something back like above from happening is money. Microsoft and Sony have similar profile systems described above implemented with XBOX Live and PlayStation Network but those companies also have millions to invest in that type of idea.

^^^

you are thinking like a "pinhead" vs. "sucking in a new player"... while that might make it more interesting for pinheads (even though their are several issues with the model you outlined, primarily that every machine will play differently, even the same machine will play differently immediately after being shopped, and it's stupid easy to cheat at pinball), i can't see that having any appeal to someone who doesn't already play pinball... the appeal of online competition for ps3 and xbox is only there for people who already play console games...

the person actually has to have interest in playing in the first place before "competition" even enters the equation... they can slake their thirst for competition in much simpler ways, and those ways are something that they are already very familiar with...

i freely admit i could be wrong about the above, it wouldn't be the first time...

the perspective of someone with half a dozen machines (more or less) in their basement is massively different from someone who has never put a coin in a machine before... instead of thinking of ways to make it more interesting for existing players, you need to think of ways to entice new players... imo, games that would be designed to bring in new players would be denigrated and crapped on mightily here at pinside (examples of this are easily found when looking at threads on "home version" machines)... there is a huge disconnect between pinside members and "the non-pinball playing world"...

bingo... and that holds true for those who were "non casual" players... when i was a yute, virtually every coin i came across went into a pinball machine... when solid state electronics hit the scene, i lost interest pretty fast...

Pinball will always survive. I think the real question is how to keep pinball mainstream, The retro craze over the past few years has really pumped some new life into pinball, but I see there being several ongoing battles that pinball has to fight.

High scores that are local to a particular machine aren't interesting anymore. Golden Tee is a great example of a system that learned to embrace the internet and competition on a larger scale. Pinball needs to find a way to plug in to social media and give people the same rush they get from winning tickets or getting a badge on Foursquare.

I also agree with the "machines are complicated" sentiment. I love pinball, but I still walk up to a TZ and think "if i could only remember what the hell I am supposed to do on this game".

i think trying to think up features that will cause a random young person to put money into a pinball machine out on location is a waste of time because i'm not sure such features exist.

the competition is light years stiffer than it was in the 80s when a blinking contraption in a corner could attract money. we are inundated with far brighter and technologically advanced objects all day long. that's strike one.

strike two is that it's a lonely activity by today's standards. it's easy to scoff at today's always-texting always-tweeting always-browsing kids, but if you think about it, texting/tweeting/social media are fundamentally extremely social activities. they make every standalone arcade or pinball feel like a noisy version of solitaire.

that point should hint at pinball's best path forward: it's not that kids are inherently uninterested in the game or don't have the attention span to learn the rules -- just look at the success of The Pinball Arcade (which has brought in tons of new players, including me). Lots of young people are getting addicted to (virtual) pinball for the first time. it's not that the game doesn't appeal to them.

Pinball, in order to catch people in its net, needs to be better at facilitating / accommodating social interaction, be it online or in person. people need the option to post their high scores or achievements to social media directly upon completion of a game, or blast those things out to a friends list. pinball machines are too different from each other and too configurable to have any kind of remotely meaningful universal high scores list but stats and leaderboards for a particular machine or group of machines or group of people seems like a no-brainer.

if pinball is going to survive outside of middle aged peoples' basements it's going to have to work harder at initiating and perpetuating social interactions -- things like leagues and tournaments and things that are actively set up for peers and groups to get involved in are one step. the social media and online gaming aspects are another. Pinball's visibility will remain at level zero with young people as long as it is limited to standalone machines seen very occasionally in the corners of bars.

to be honest, i think you may be right there... being completely honest with myself, if 6 year old chris had had a ps3 with a big screen tv at home, an ipad and iphone to play games on, and all the other forms of entertainment that are available today, i'm not entirely sure i ever would have put a dime in a pinball machine... it would be easy to say "oh yea, i definitely would have played pinball", but that is being intellectually dishonest...

it's somewhat analogous to radio vs. tv... back in the day, the family would crowd around the radio to get entertainment, listening to the weekly shows... that model of entertainment completely died when tv's became affordable...

Seems like off-shore manufacturing is the only real way to ensure the survival of pinball. Let me explain.

Each time that video has been added to pinball (Revenge From Mars, Wizard of Oz), new players were attracted.

Since arcades are dead, the only real market is the home, for which cost is the biggest problem.

Put the two points together and you arrive at the need to add video and bring costs down drastically. Thus, it seems like cheap foreign manufacturing is the only way to save pinball long term.

The world has changed since the 80s/90s. Plenty of cheaper and more convenient ways to entertain. Pins died a slow death in the arcade as soon as video games came along as they were cheaper to maintain, easier to play, more addictive. Arcades started disappearing altogether once home video games/home computers came along, now people are predicting the demise of video game consoles due to mobile gaming.

The move has always been to cheaper/more convenient. Adding in some social features to pinball, or a machine where you can swap playfields in and out isn't going to change that in any statistically significant way as machines will still be larger and more costly that other alternatives.

My .02.

Something like Joust pinball was probably onto something. I wish someone to do something more with this idea. One-at-a-time gets old.

More pins in the wild and shows. I took 2 of my friend's kids (28 and 25) to the TPF. Prior to this event, their exposure to pinball was limited to what they remembered as little kids and what they've played at my place.

During the show, I gave them a tour of the main showroom, pointing out which ones are considered classics, which pins have cool and unique features, etc. I then let them go on their separate ways. During a late lunch, they couldn't stop talking about pinball and couldn't wait to go back to play some more. They told me what games they liked and didn't like. I was surprised with a few that they liked, so I made sure to try them out myself (some were surprisingly good).

After lunch, they called over 4 of their friends. I smiled all afternoon seeing that the 6 of them were having a great time. I taught them about modes and rules, various flipping techniques (one of them got quite good), etc. They left knowing that pinball is not just a random game of chance and it's more than just keeping the balls in play.

The older one said to me after the show, "I never knew there was such a variety. Where can I play more?". I told him that there are very few locations in the DFW area. The nearest place with a large variety is 4.5 hours away (Pinballz in Austin) so it's not convenient.

I too was disappointed about games in location when I got into the hobby 2 years ago. Luckily, I have the means to bring pins home. These kids don't have that luxury yet. I hope to keep them interested in this hobby for as long as I can...

I love the replies I see.

The bottom line though is this: Are the manufacturers addressing making pinball viable and appealing for future generations?

Here is the major problem in todays pinball: Machines on route that don't work and are not maintained. Ball time also must last more than two seconds.

ANYONE that has experience in big ticket item sales knows this: You usually only get one chance to make the sale. What that means is that if you don't get a commitment to purchase right then, once that potential customer leaves it is highly unlikely that they will return to make the purchase.

What that means for pinball? A crappy first time playing pinball might be the last time.

I hate playing machines on location anymore for the fact that the odds that there is something not working is more likely than not. I might try a machine once. If it works well, it gets my money again. If it doesn't I move on.

The maintenance problem needs to be addressed for the ops that for whatever reason, do not maintain their machines ( i would hate to speculate why).

Agreed the social aspect is a must for continued success... in the "real" face-to-face sense as well as posting updates to your FB/phone off in the corner somewhere. It'll take both.

When someone plays pinball it creates a spectacle and invites others to follow the action. Whereas nobody cares what you're doing on a smartphone...

maddog, good point about poorly-maintained machines making a bad "first impression" on someone, making them feel punished for taking a chance and tossing some cash into one.

another factor that brings down a first-timer's pinball experience is the fact that in many locations, especially if it's a bar or club, you simply can't hear the sound effects, music, and callouts. i don't know if bars were quieter places in the 80s or what but i've played several machines on location recently and felt the experience was really hampered by not being able to hear what was going on. one of these games was WHODunnit. i wasn't familiar with it, and felt like i couldn't quite figure it out without being able to hear the speech. granted the text of the clues is printed on the DMD, but i still felt like the lack of audible sound was making it harder to get the gist of what was going on.

I wouldn't say that modern games are intuitive. Pretty much every game I can think of has a level or two that is essentially a tutorial. Take any FPS, they show you how to target, shoot, crouch, jump, do the game's gimmick.

If the LCD of future pins served as a tutorial while in attract mode, you could probably teach the basics of the game in 10-15 seconds. It could be as simple as showing that the flipper buttons are on the side and that you should aim for the flashing lights. See rule sheet for more rules.

Or, show the where the buttons are and how to plunge (and maybe even say that you get 3 balls per game) and then show one rule item. Like how to get Weapon X Multiball. The next cycle, it does the flipper/plunge/3-ball bit and then shows how to collect the X-men.

Break it down, make it easy to absorb, and just get the ball rolling.

Agree 100%. I've been playing since the 70s, but my 19 and 17 year old have absolutely no interest in the game, no matter what the theme is, and probably never will. And with the people I know who own even the new comic book Stern games their kids have no interest, either. I don't there's anything that will bring back a true mass revival. Over time, the boomers who own these things will pass on, and pins that have been gathering dust for decades will be estate-saled and scrapped by their widows and children since the companies that make replacement parts for these things will no longer be in business. There always will be a small group who will buy and maintain these things, but I can't see it lasting in any meaningful way beyond the next 25 years or so.

maybe on consoles, but not on mobile devices or in arcades for that matter. it's incredibly simple games that catch on the easiest.

Lot of comparisons of pinball to video games and phone apps. Is this a fair comparison? There's another mechanical game that still exists, and actually thrives in nearly every town u drive through. Bowling alleys rarely close because there's always someone interested in playing. If a lane is down, it's not making money. We need operators that care about keeping games running in good condition, and increase pinball leagues. People scoff at paying 75 cents to a dollar to play a single game of pinball, yet they have no issue with paying $20/hour for bowling, and rent stinky shoes for $3?

Maybe a big chain like Brunswick zone needs to make a pinball room a standard to every location just like pool rooms. Why fight trying to get people into the arcades, you've a already got an audience at bowling alleys

really? the one that is 2 miles from my house closed last year, and had been on life-support forever... most bowling alleys around me are on life-support, and have to resort to gimmicks to simply keep the doors open...

you picked a bad example there... but it is a PERFECT example of "what used to be entertainment for the masses, but isn't anymore"...

boxing and horse racing used to be major entertainment too... now you are lucky if you get 1 good fight a year, and the only reason racetracks are surviving today is because they've filled them up with slot and video poker machines...

In regards to accessibility, it seems that an lcd will eventually become the new norm for a screen. How about use the screen to replace the rules card?

You walk up to the machine, hit both buttons, and on the screen pops up a layout of the playfield with some pictures of shots you need to make, or better yet some animation or video. Granted, the new player would need to know this feature existed. But it would be much more informative than trying to read the tiny print on the cards.

Would certainly help me out playing WOZ, and I don't think it would be too hard to implement.

Again, it's league play that has kept bowling alive in most respects. The last few bowling houses I've been to (which used to have pinball back in the day) had pinball machines, with the exception of one ... which had all those noisy redemption machines.

League play would help pinball moving forward, but pinball won't continue in perpetuity. But pinball's popularity as we are experiencing it right now will definitely decline.

the other thing that people are forgetting that is a pretty big factor is the "human interface"....

it seems like my nephews mastered the video game controller in minutes*, and the interface for mobile devices is even simpler to master... good luck acquiring even modest flipper skills in that short a time...

with video games, handheld devices, etc., the interface does the exact same thing every time... with a round ball being hit by a rubber flat surface, not so much...

also, the randomness of pinball is a big turn off to people who expect the exact same thing to happen every time they do something... hell, even pinheads who are partial to modern games gripe that em machines are "too random"...

*little buggers learned in 30 minutes what took me heaven knows how much time....

New pinball games should have a "tutorial mode" that comes up as an option on the screen.

"To start your ball, pull back on and release the PLUNGER (big graphic showing a hand doing just that). The further you pull back, the further your ball will go. Try and pull it back just right and you can hit the SKILL SHOT for additional points!"

"This ball is about to come out HERE (flash light on kickout hole) It will roll across the LEFT FLIPPER. Push the FLIPPER BUTTON on the LEFT side of the machine to FLIP the FLIPPER (show animation of a flipper flipping). Depending on where the ball is when you flip, it will go at a different angle on the playfield. Try to hit it so it goes up the RIGHT RAMP (flash right ramp)"

etc etc

I was thinking of consoles when I wrote that. I used to have quite a few mobile games on my phone, but when I got a new phone recently not many of the games were put on it. They just didn't do enough for me to get them again.

I can confirm this.. I'm in a bowling league and don't even particularly like bowling.-and I suck at it. Bowling league is all about getting together with your buddies and drinking beer and getting out of the house one night a week.

True, but leagues are what keep bowling allies thriving. I go up to the one near me to play the 1 pin they have there. Usually every lane is packed with league players. Meanwhile I try to get in a game of pinball and not be distracted by the little kid that's parents play in league and send him to the arcade to keep occupied hanging over the glass watching me play.

I don't see pinball making it to the future generations but the few things I see responsible for it even having a glimmer of a shot:

1. Video Pinball. Pinball Arcade is easily accessible and cheap. For a few bucks kids can be introduced to games

2. More pinball events. These are great expereinces that whole families can enjoy. The lack of route pinball means that events may be the only opportunity for the general public to play real games

3. More and Better route pinball. Kids need to be exposed to games on a regular basis in public and without route pinball then this will never happen to the general population

3.5 Route pinball needs to have the price go up and pinheads need to pay to play. The reason that many games on location are not well maintained is because it takes lots of time and $ to maintain them. Yet, many pinball players still expect to pay 90s prices with todays dollars. In order for route pinball to be viable and maintained, operators need to at least have it worth theri time and investment to do so. Full disclosure >> Myself and a few other locals are putting 4 games out on route starting today. If they dont make enough money to at least cover the expenses (fees, taxes, insurance) then I image we wont keep them out for the long haul. Should be fun to try but I am cautiously optimistic that it will even break even.

I think the ultimate death of pinball is due to a shift in our society and culture...
Where are the kids? I think the real death of pinball is that kids dont go outside and people no longer live in cities where kids ride bikes around town and stop at the hub for a pack of gum and to play some pinball. What route pinball there is, is typically not even available to kids (unless you live in WI where kids are in bars with parents all the time). Kids need more pinball in kid locations. This means actual cities where kids are safe to play outside and be little people rather than always protected fromt he scary world.

We're still learning (and we'll continue to learn) how best to use our LCD to instruct the player. Since the LCD is integrated into the p/f and can highlight the actual shots players needs to hit, we can give them all of the information they need, right where they're looking while playing.

That said, while onscreen instructions seem great (and they can be), they have to be integrated properly into gameplay. Right before TPF, we replaced our placeholder mode introductions with short tutorials, explaining exactly what would happen in the mode and highlighting the appropriate shots. Some people read through the instructions (with most then ignoring them), and others immediately flipped to cancel them. A bunch of people who cancelled them then asked us what they were supposed to be done, heh.

Here's a short video from TPF (software at ~50%) showing all 3 of the scene modes. The player cancelled the first mode's instructions (warehouse) and watched the second one (Shootin' Range). You'll also notice in the third scene we used dynamic insert arrows to identify new shot objectives. Specifically, after the player shot some swamp gas, we turned on the insert arrows pointing to the canister and labeled them with "Store Gas". The canister shot is only relevant after gas is shot, so that insert arrow doesn't exist at other times during the mode.

Clearly we can (and will) do a lot to present the information in a more exciting manner, but we learned a lot from watching people respond to even these very primitive instructions.

The person who just walks up to the game to play it once or twice doesn't likely want to sit through and process a short tutorial (even if just a few seconds long). On the other hand, people who really get into the game will figure out most of the basic rules very quickly, making tutorials tedious. The trick is to present the information in such a way that they can learn from it without being overwhelmed by it.

Blinking insert arrows and such *are* instructions, at least in a simplistic form. With the P3, we're able to label those insert arrows based on the objectives they represent at any given time, so that helps define broader objectives that make use of the specific shots being labeled.

We've also started adding on screen instructions to indicate why things might not have happened as expected. For instance, if you shoot the mode hole when it isn't lit, an arrow will show up telling you to shoot the right ramp to light mode. If you shoot the right ramp again after lighting mode, you'll get a secondary arrow pointing to the mode hole (in addition to the labelled & blinking insert arrow), reinforcing the need to shoot the hole. Once we get voice calls integrated, we'll reinforce these instructions with callouts.

The p/f LCD gives us the ability to provide a lot more information (instructions, rewards, stats, etc) to the player during gameplay. The trick is figuring out the best way to present it. Luckily, it's all dynamic... so we can keep trying until we hit on things that work really well.

If you haven't already seen the more comprehensive gameplay video (recorded a couple of weeks before TPF, and already outdated. It has our old, temporary text-block mode intros), it's worth a watch:

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Could "some" video pinball be hurting real pinball? Take pinball fx with their fantasy tables, kids might be dissapointed when there aren't animatronic jedi's battling it out on top of the plastics. Then again, if stern gets on-board with the pinball arcade and releases the virtual table at the same time as the real thing, then kids will try it at home, want to play the real thing and seek it out on location. Heck, stern could make a pretty penny just from a percentage of downloads as a licensing agreement.

You got something against dudes with big shirts?

j/k: im a big shirt dude and figured I would just bust your balls.

What if pinball really isn't a kids game? For example, for the longest time I neither understood nor cared to understand what pinball was. Sure I was vaguely interested in RFM and SWEP1, but I was far more interested in TMNT, Virtua Tennis, and Tekken Tag. Then in my mid 20s I gave pinball a serious try... and DAMN it was cool.

So it's very possible that catering to kids is not the correct thing to do- instead catering to 20+ somethings may be better for the industry. Both young and old adults are *usually* more mobile (not dependent on a parent transporting them), they often have spare change (to spontaneously plunk in a machine), they go to bars and bowling allies (where machines typically are found), they're more open to structured competitions/leagues, etc... Hell, they may be out drinking with buddies and get a dare to play that silly pinball machine in the corner (and end up really enjoying it).

*shrug* Just a thought.

I agree with this philosophy. Attract mode that does just that-attract in a bigger fashion. I'm not sure what the WOZ does,but knowing the niche-only state of PB,there could be several different types of attract mode depending on the location.
These newer style attract modes would utilize the new style screens like WOZ to a whole new level.

1. Casual-Your average attract mode for a Pinball establishment that needs no extra help getting players.

2. Moderate-This would call out an unsuspecting person or group,show them how to play,shots to make, and the scores to beat . The new style screens could assist with animated arrows pointing to locations etc.

3.Extreme-This would be an all out action packed video that would resemble a movie trailer that senses when someone touches or stands right next to it,then does all of Moderate Attract mode.

New play features:
You could also have a Timed Play/Easy mode- Awesome attract like 2-3, but a play option for side outlanes to close,and a big bumper post right between the flippers for a duration, allowing players to get a good feel for the game without losing a ball too soon, or walk away disappointed. This would be on a timer before the center post goes down and the outlanes open again to keep play times optimal.
A separate score display for this mode also to automatically reset every 24 hrs to curb score whores from taking advantage of this feature.

Agree 100%

I'm 23, got into pinball two years ago when my friends dragged me to The Pyramid Scheme. Now this situation is obviously pretty unique given barcades are still quite rare and Grand Rapids is a hipster hot spot, but I see tons of new people getting into pinball in this manner. There is a free play night every 1st Sunday of the month, and it's always PACKED. More than a few of those players bleed off into paying patrons during the rest of the week, and some join the league.

That's great. Wish we had something like that here. The nearest public place with a few pins is about fifty miles away. I have driven there several times, but it is too far for most friends unless I take them.

There's definitely been a big shift in culture than from when we were growing up. There's a lot more supervision now. From the time I was 8 or 9 I remember the rule was I could go anywhere on our side of the train tracks as long as I was home for dinner at 5. The arcade in my town was a seedy place to go and you'd have to watch yourself around some of the older kids to avoid getting in a fight or getting your money stolen. I can't imagine that too many businesses now a days would want to babysit a bunch of little punk kids, but that's the way it was back then. It also seems like all the family arcades now are primarily redemption games and kids save the video games for home or for the iPad. I really don't see pinball as ever being popular with kids. If by chance you're at a Chucky Cheese or a family arcade it's almost always an adult that's playing the lone pinball machine in the room. Pinball is just not in their culture. It would take a popular movie or TV show about pinball and some mighty advertising dollars to get pinball to be popular again with the general public.

Meanwhile, somewhere on a Minecraft forum some kids are probably talking about how they can get Adults interested in playing Minecraft

I have to say, the social and physical aspects of pinball are a big part of the appeal for me. That to play, I have to track them down in the wild. Always a good reason to check out a new bar, scout out places in a town you're visiting, go to shows, etc. The journey and hunt is half the fun. Sort of like music used to be before the digital revolution...you had to hunt down the rare stuff in shops. I like that I can't truly have the whole pinball experience via my laptop.