I say this not joking at all, from years of experience moderating really contentious forums: heads on spikes.

You take the problem people, you ban them for a bit, you explain why, and let people figure out the clown games are gonna stop. Nothing else will solve this without doing that first.

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I'm on here quite a lot, and to be honest, I guess I'm tone-deaf regarding 'troll' comments.

What is a typical troll comment, vs. just another comment?

I'm not being facetious at all. I'm really confused by this delineation....

I for one will self-ban myself from commenting on WoZ further.... I suppose I've made my opinions clear....

It was never my intention to get other banned.... but I certainly poked the bear....

One thing that may help a little is to not let anyone start a new account without an IP address associated with the registration. In other words, you would not be able to start an account through cellular connection (would have to be linked to a router) and that would reduce the chances of someone having a 2nd account that is used for trolling.

I don't have a horse in any race really (in fact at this point I'd be more anti Stern due to Met software) but statements like this will only further aggravate people.

There's a group of people who think every negative JJP comment is a personal attack on them or JJP and that there's too much JJP bashing.

There's a group of people who think every negative Stern comment is a personal attack on them or Stern and that there's too much Stern bashing.

The reality that I see: neither manufacturer is operating perfectly or properly, but for different reasons.

If you don't like it, find a new hobby.

I think you are supposed to tell them to grow up then put that person on ignore like a child would do...

oh pinside

Everyone has opinions. Everyone has bad days or gets grumpy or whatever. It's when there's a constant pattern of behavior that it becomes an issue IMHO. The same old people, talking the same old trash, in every thread over and over. We get it, you don't like WOZ/Stern/MMr whatever. We got it months ago. It's simply trolling, and it's not hard to see it.

ignoring people isn't childish if it stops you from doing childish things.

I think you more effectively poke the bear by not pre-ordering titles and returning unfinished/unsatisfying products that you've spent a small fortune on. Then watch the "bear" come crawling for answers, or just go byebyes.

Moving on...

oh pin side

I guess I don't participate in these threads enough to see the pattern, other than one very obvious example.

I guess what I'm asking is, saying you don't like something is being a troll? How many times can one offer an opinion before it becomes trolling? How about if it is a popular opinion? Is it still trolling?

I guess I have one question, and I mean this semi ironically but seriously as well... what the hell else is there to talk about? It's not like there's new pinball news every 20 minutes to dissect. There's 2 manufacturers (3 soon?) in a tiny niche market... is everyone supposed to just walk away from pinside until something 'new' happens? There's no community if we only come post once every couple weeks. For the record, I'm fine with that - I could log on a few times a month and it's 99% guaranteed nothing has changed. So I guess disband everything for lack of topics?

I 100% agree we can act more mature, but the topic of conversation will always be about the games, the mechanisms, the shots, the manufacturers. It's not like music or clothing, or hell even cars (OMG cargument?!)where you have new crap to discuss all day, or a whole bunch of manufacturers to talk about. And STILL on those forums big heated discussions break out.

You mentioned something in another thread that also is a problem -- if you disagree with someone, some consider you a troll. I've seen this problem on countless other message boards as well.

The biggest problem with simply ignoring a troll is that occasionally you have to put them in their place, especially when you perceive they are affecting your ability to put food on the table for you and your family.

If people had an ignore count next to them (ie how many times they had been ignored by others) then maybe ignoring would have some value. But depending on your situation it probably doesn't make sense to simply put your head in the sand.

But I've also spent most of my life online and gotten into many flamewars over the years, so I am probably just predisposed to arguing on the internet.

don't make me challenge you to some arm rasslin'. seriously. don't. you'd break my wrist.

To pick the obvious example, if you go into every single MMr thread to rant about how they're refakes, you're a troll. Does that mean you have to like the MM remakes? Of course not. Are you allowed to post your opinion on them? Sure! But repeated refake refake refake just turns into trolling. Teekee can downvote me, but he'd be better off sending Robin chocolates and knocking it off.

Somehow I think you could manage to cut off that level of crap, and still have 1000 post threads about MMr. It's interesting without the extra noise.

There's more going on in pinball right now than there has been in years! We really can't find things to talk about? I don't believe it.

I don't believe that trolling is limited to Stern and JJp. You find it with mm (PPS) vs mmr
and the older top 10 bally /willliams games as well, trying to say, values are going down, and older technology vs new, so that they may hopefully then be able to afford one of those classics that have held value. as a example: Under: buy: What is the value of a TZ? and someone over and over and over tries his best to devalue it relentlessly.
= troll.

There should be an Ignored by X members on your title....

And this could help as well....love the Star Trek theme!!!

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You call it MMR and I call it MM refake. So what? If you have to cry to the mods about that I think you have the problem.. It will always be a refake to me, sorry.

I know you've been working overtime to get me banned (and others) and I think that is so sad. It tells me a lot about you. Man up!

I'll put it this way. If I could choose between a few individuals having to either control themselves a bit or get banned but Keefer *not* having to self censor himself and talk about his work, vs RGP free for all? Not even a choice.

If that means some people think Robin is a big meanie, and they can't express themselves how they feel they should be able to, oh well. If that included a mod telling me to tone it down because I said Jack should go f#&$ for talking shit about Pinside? I'm good with that. (For the record no one did, but if they did I'd accept their moderation.)

I love this forum and community, I've gotten a ton of positive things out of it. I hate to see the negativity drown out some of that positive energy. When it was contained to a couple threads it was one thing, you could basically choose to ignore it. But now it's spilled out all over the place.

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

In my opinion, there is no answer to that because it depends on what is being said. If I have the opinion that I love Tron (and I do), I can say that a million times, and it isn't trolling. But if I go into a WOZ thread and explain WOZ sucks because it isn't Tron, I am trolling. So context has a lot to do with it.

I appreciate discourse about all machines. I own Bally, Williams, JJP and Stern games. I really like the technical help I get on here sometimes because I don't know everything. And I like hearing what manufacturers are doing in the industry. I wouldn't have known about new games like MMR if I hadn't read it on Pinside. And I like the different opinions I find here. I've read a lot of them that, even if I disagree, they were insightful and interesting. But that isn't happening here anymore. And it isn't thin skin, it is that people are trolling (by the above definition) to get reactions and cause drama.

I'm not sure that is the case anymore.

I remember the Pinside sales pitch - leave RGP and come here, no trolls allowed. What goes around, comes around.

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I see the problem regularly. Say someone opens a thread to try to sell pin X. Chances are very good that the thread will degenerate. Those who despise either the pin itself or its manufacturer will be drawn irresistibly to the discussion and will make the same disparaging remarks they have made dozens (and dozens, and...) of times before in almost every other thread related in any way, shape or form to pin X. How many times does someone have to tell me they dislike something? Honestly, I got it the first time. And if things slow down too much, they will then start a deliberately provocative thread of their own just to stir the pot.

Doubtless, this behavior is encouraged by the relative anonymity of the Internet. I do think the tone of many conversations would be different if we were talking face to face. It reminds me of the final episode of 30 Rock, in which Liz Lemon gets into an online fight with someone, only to discover later that it is her husband.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm really not a fan of censorship.

Sometimes the pot should be stirred if it's a topic that hasn't been beaten to death previously and is of legitimate concern to the hobby. IE: a thread about completeness and timetable of software releases, viability of a particular funding model, etc. I honestly don't care what anyone says as long as they have an actual argument to back it up... it's just discussions here take on a fervor bordering on the religious sometimes and it's hard to pierce the vail of unqualified, unquestioning belief.

Most of the people on pinside I think are good people. There's a few mean spirited comments that serve no purpose..someone in a thread recently (right before Christmas) told another pinsider he should just die. I really don't like that kind of stuff, those are the people who should be banned. Otherwise, saying you dislike something 100 times isn't a big deal to me, just don't do it in someone's FS thread

I accept that qualifier. I am thinking of topics that have indeed been done to death. Also, I am more interested in and receptive toward concerns when they are raised by owners of the pins themselves (e.g., Stern owners talking about incomplete code or WOZ owners talking about GI problems). People who clearly will never own a ST or a WOZ but who can't pass up an opportunity to berate it are the ones whose opinions I tire of hearing.

Can we ban the word "troll" from this forum?
Its used so out of context anyways.
If someone wants to start a conversation and others want to join in, then great.
If you dont like the topic, move onto the next one. No one forcing you to read nor comment!

The whole idea of Pinside forum was to provide a positive place to talk pinball. I'm not saying you can't say anything negative here, sure you can. But if the majority of your posts has a negative ring to them then maybe it is time to stop posting here.

Maybe I should have a site rule "be positive"?

Look, I would be happy to kick some people of the site, if that would fix the problem. But will it? And who should I ban? And why? What rules are they breaking? Trolling? When is someone really trolling? Should I be keeping count, a piece of paper and turfing names?

I will admit this, ban votes on users swearing are a lot easier to issue than on a user "trolling".

One of my first posts on here was about not liking Transformers when I played it on location. That thread was a fun shitstorm of replies.

Sometimes people just need to remember that these are only games and who cares if another person doesn't like a game in their personal collection? Very thin skinned people are amusing though.

There are ways to dislike something as well. I have seen many good arguments from people that do not share my thoughts on something, that is good because it spurs discussion. When someone calls something a piece of crap and offers nothing more, they are probably trolling.

Teekee, I have to say that since you know it offends other to call MMr a refake, it pushes that name to trolling when you use it to talk about that game. We have heard your point. There is no need to keep calling it names other than to cause problems.

Some many not agree with that, maybe not even other mods, but that is what makes it hard to call.

When someone is obviously trolling they usually collect a lot of thumbs downs. Why doesn't Pinside hide posts below a threshold? That's how other sites deal with it.

The problem begins with so many different interests converging into one place. The common denominator is pinball, sure, but there are all manner of interests and factions within that set. Some people hate the OT stuff here. Some want less "clutter" and more technical and factual info talk. Some want to speculate on investment, some want to talk it all. Some have a predisposition toward or against a particular subset, or manufacturer, or even one machine.

The problem is, was, and will always be the converging of different opinions and interests. Everyone wants a solution, but no one wants to admit that they might have to also be willing to change their approach. You change, not me. Sure, the JJP guys want the Stern guys to do something different. And the Stern guys want the JJP guys to act differently. But neither side admits to their share of the past problems. Same thing with the MMR guys vs MM guys. How many times have we seen one side or the other post things as facts, that are clearly speculations or assumptions, and then dig in and get ruthless defending a statement or theory as true, at the expense of board civility?

I admit my trolling behavior in the past. I let my personal opinion known, which I defend as fine. But then I attacked and called people names and purposefully whipped who I knew I could into a frenzy. It doesn't matter if I think I was right or wrong in any of it, either. Robin sets the rules and I broke them. Repeatedly. My actions were wrong because I did not respect Robin's edict of board civility. Period. And I got shut down for a long time.

The calls for common ground and peace "because we all love pinball" is ideologically unattainable. It is a fart in he wind. There are too many interests and too much $$$ at stake and tied up here to make that work. But the "agree to disagree" movement has to take hold. It should be okay for me to state my opinion. As it should be for you to also state yours. But fighting over why mine is right and yours is wrong is the game that I have decided I am not interested in playing any more. I still have lots of opinions. And think lots of you are wrong. But I no longer feel compelled to waste time doing anything more than offering my thoughts, and agreeing to disagree where appropriate.

Try it.

If a made up word like refake offends someone they have a problem. It has no definition except what you make of it.

I have been called so many ugly names here that really should have offended me and would probably get some people banned... I could care less, people can call me what they want.

Darned if I know the answer

I use another forum for another hobby, the forum is larger than pinside, the moderators are invisible but there are few problems

People should mind their own business, if you don'tlike a game tthen find a thread about a game you do like

Using it a few times to make a point is not what we are talking about, that is not what offends people. It is not even the word itself, it is doing it every chance you get and even looking for threads to use it.

You missed my point that it is not the actual word, it is the action of trying to offend others.

Fine, no more refake but make sure you're watching out for me when someone calls me something much worse than 'refake'...

He was a troll ...so it was OK

So why don't you just go jump into a basket of flowers and candy why dontchya!

In this instance, my opinion is that Teekee is perfectly fine letting his opinion know that MMR and MM aren't the same. Even if he thinks that MMR is a "refake". Him shoehorning that term into a conversation, just to get it in there, is a problem that affects civility.

On the other hand, someone disagreeing with Teekee's opinions re: MMR vs MM, they should be free to express that they think differently - and to let their opinion on the issue be known. But losing control and being whipped into a froth-mouthed frenzy over the word is, perhaps, also contributing to toxic board conditions.

Teekee should be free to use the word refake when sharing his opinions in an appropriate place and time. And others should be free to not expect Teekee to come flying in from left field just to carpet bomb them with the word refake, where inappropriate. When Teekee looks to shoehorn his opinion into a thread, just to stir up a fight, he is in the wrong. But, on the other hand, when the discussion is being had about this particular issue, someone losing control and civility just because they don't agree that the term is accurate, is equally in the wrong.

It's all ego. Trolls just type to read their own words. WTF else would someone post in every thread about a game they don't like? Put them on ignore and they *poof* go away.

Its much easier to ignore them by using the "ignore" button at the top of their post. Ideally nobody would bite at the trolls bait, but unfortunately we all do from time to time.

And you are right. We have had a tremendous increase in the amount of them here lately. We will all just have to self police and ignore them, help each other whenever possible, and just set an example by being civil.

It would be preferred for the mods to just ban them though. It really is getting ridiculous with the silly polls that are designed to create controversy.

I say stop allowing "polls" too.

We all try but the volume is crazy. If you (or anyone) feel(s) something is out of hand, please send one, several, all, mods a message pointing us to it. We are a small mod staff and many of us actually have other things we need to do. As many of you know, we can really get pulled into Pinside and end up spending more time on here than we should.

I would also like to point out that there are many opinions in this thread and we are having a civil discussion. It can happen.

Thunderdome.

After thinking about it I have a solution!

Ban all discussion about pinball machine made after 1992
The woodrail guys are a happy bunch
Wedgehead fans are cool
Those who thing pinballs golden era was early eighty's are envyed by everyone

And not a harsh word from ant of those groups

Like I said that stuff doesn't bother me and I have no intention of pointing them out its just upsetting that a little made up word like refake can set people off... anymore just about anything can set people off it seems. Pinball has definitely become very personal.