I don't think this has been covered yet. It was not in the index and there is no way in hell I'm going to wade through all the back and forth butt hurtedness, memes and car insurance information to try to find it.
Checks Drawn off a Credit Card? (essentially balance transfer type checks) I called the bank in question, was put on hold, told that was a good question, then sent to the credit card department. After some explanation, I was told that it was about a 5 day wait to make sure.
Thoughts?
Quoted from newmantjn:I don't think this has been covered yet. It was not in the index and there is no way in hell I'm going to wade through all the back and forth butt hurtedness, memes and car insurance information to try to find it.
Checks Drawn off a Credit Card? (essentially balance transfer type checks) I called the bank in question, was put on hold, told that was a good question, then sent to the credit card department. After some explanation, I was told that it was about a 5 day wait to make sure.
Thoughts?
Any paper check you should give 3 weeks to clear.
Scammers use real account numbers so someone has to see the fraud and file it, or they use international routing numbers so the check bounces around the world.
Also if the check is considered a "credit card purchase" with full credit card features, the buyer could do a chargeback on you even 6 months after the check clears.
Many times, brand new credit card accounts come with 3 paper "balance transfer" checks. That of course, is even more shady.
Never trust a teller to tell you how long a check takes to clear, they have no idea at all.
Always ask to speak to the actual branch manager.
Never trust the phone number on the check, as you could be calling the scammers for reassurance.
I don't know why this isn't pinned somewhere at the top? This is the greatest thread I've ever read. I avoided 1 REALLY GOOD scammer because of what Vid posted. I then used posts 345 & 346 to make the sale, and I never felt more comfortable & safe making a sale in my life.
This is fantastic stuff and needs to be seen by everyone. Thanks vid1900
When it comes time to accept payment on a pin that is going to be shipped, would it be 99% foolproof to accept a cashier's check from a nationally reputable bank - Suntrust, WellsFargo, Bank of America, etc. that can be cashed prior to shipping the pin? Shouldn't a seller be able to cash this check even though they do not have an account there?
And yes, I know that "cash on the glass" is probably the best form of payment, but that's not always feasible.
Quoted from rogerroger:When it comes time to accept payment on a pin that is going to be shipped, would it be 99% foolproof to accept a cashier's check from a nationally reputable bank - Suntrust, WellsFargo, Bank of America, etc. that can be cashed prior to shipping the pin? Shouldn't a seller be able to cash this check even though they do not have an account there?
And yes, I know that "cash on the glass" is probably the best form of payment, but that's not always feasible.
Quoted from vid1900:You can accept a real Personal Check, real Cashier's Check, or whatever, but you need to wait 3-4 weeks for it to clear.
Quoted from rogerroger:Shouldn't a seller be able to cash this check even though they do not have an account there?
Depends on the bank and their policies, but yes, you can cash checks drawn on other branches/states and get cash instantly, with no recourse.
Some banks are branded the same, but not really the same entities across state lines, so they may not cash them. A quick call to your local branch will determine if it is an option for you.
I use SunTrust and have met sellers at the bank when buying cars out of state. I write the check to the seller, he cashes it on the spot, I get the title.
Good luck.
Quoted from Black_Knight:I write the check to the seller, he cashes it on the spot, I get the title.
Why not write it to cash, cash it yourself, and hand the seller the cash? Do it in the bank lobby if safety is a concern. No reason for seller to deal with your check at all.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Why not write it to cash, cash it yourself, and hand the seller the cash? Do it in the bank lobby if safety is a concern. No reason for seller to deal with your check at all.
So I don't have to fill out cash paperwork for the IRS/DEA, so I don't have to count out cash 3 times, and it provides me a record for a large purchase. These purchases are much larger than pinball purchases.
Half the time the seller gets a cashiers check instead of the cash instead of sitting there and counting it for an hour.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Why not write it to cash, cash it yourself, and hand the seller the cash? Do it in the bank lobby if safety is a concern. No reason for seller to deal with your check at all.
Merrill Lynch/Bank of America no longer accepts checks made payable to "cash". Unless maybe Roseanne or Tommy Cash.
Quoted from vid1900:PERSONAL CHECKS, CASHIER'S CHECKS, CERTIFIED CHECKS AND MONEY ORDERS ALL TAKE 3-4 WEEKS TO CLEAR YOUR BANK
========================================
There is a Federal Law that states that banks have to make deposited funds available to you in 48 hours (with a few exceptions).
That does not mean that the funds have cleared!
Funds Available ≠ Funds Cleared <------- These are two totally different things!!!!!!
-
Banks don't cash checks directly from other banks.
When you take my check from Bank of America and deposit it in your Chase Bank account, Chase does not get the cash directly from BOA.
Instead, Chase cashes the check through a Clearing House that takes checks from many different banks. The Clearing House gets the money from BOA and then it is placed in a Chase account.
So when scammers put odd routing numbers or international numbers onto fake checks, it can take weeks for the depositing bank to finally get the returned check stamped as the dreaded AIFI - Altered Item / Fictitious Item.
You have probably taken a check from somebody, and then said you would ship the item as soon as the funds clear. Often the person will watch their account like a hawk and email you the moment the money is deducted from their account: "Hey, I just checked and that check cleared at 1pm today. Have you sent my package????".
Just because the money was deducted by the clearing house, does not mean it has been cleared by the Clearing House to your bank, so don't let people rush you.
I had a friend a few months back fall for this exactly, I could not believe he fell for it. There are still plenty of people getting taken by this, which is why they still do it. He sold a machine on craigslist or wherever, the guy sent him the check and enough money to cover the shipper. Told him to pay the guy in person when he got there.
He deposits the check, exactly what you're saying is going on in the background, then a couple days later the guy calls him to tell him that the shipper, unfortunately, wants to be paid in advance, so would he please deposit the extra money into his account? Both my friend's bank account AND the scammer's bank account were with Wells Fargo. He pulls out $1000 or something or the other, and deposits it into the other guy's account, calls the guy, the money is immediately withdrawn and of course the check bounces the next day.
I couldn't believe he fell for that but he seemingly had no clue that was even possible. It even put his account into a negative balance, I tried to tell him he should go down and talk with the bank manager, who has no power but could possibly get him in touch with somebody else.... they should have made the scammer's account have a negative balance instead of his. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
Issues like this are why at Wells Fargo, at least, any more you can't deposit cash into someone's account that isn't yours now. Crazy.
Quoted from LyonsRonnie1:I had a friend a few months back fall for this exactly, I could not believe he fell for it. There are still plenty of people getting taken by this, which is why they still do it
^ thanks for the great example! ^
I still get emails about every other month "I can't explain it, but it all seemed so real when it went down. Looking back it seems like I got taken 'by the numbers' , and my wife still brings it up every day."
So absolutely pinheads are still getting scammed by this.
I'm trying to buy this pin but the buyer will only accept PayPal. No Escrow.
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/72007
The pin would be shipped to me. The buyer has a good reputation it would seem: 6 feedback all 100%. 49 ads marked sold (although none of the prices are disclosed) -- why would there only be 6 feedback for 49 sales?
Anyway, two questions:
1. how can I protect myself if the seller will only accept PayPal? Is that even possible?
2. how common is it for people NOT to accept escrow on pinside. And why wouldn't they (are they afraid of the buyer rejecting the sale after it's been delivered?)
Thanks,
grimholtz
Quoted from grimholtz:1. how can I protect myself if the seller will only accept PayPal? Is that even possible?
If the seller is dumb enough to accept Paypal, then YOU can rip him off royally, even a few months from now, should the mood strike you.
Quoted from grimholtz:why would there only be 6 feedback for 49 sales?
6 is pretty good, seems like most people don't leave feedback. I did for the 1 pin I purchased on pinside, partially because nobody before me left any feedback for that seller.
Quoted from vid1900:If the seller is dumb enough to accept Paypal, then YOU can rip him off royally, even a few months from now, should the mood strike you.
Meh. Not sure about that. I assume you mean the buyer can open a dispute. I've been both a merchant and a consumer using PayPal for 15 years or so. The PayPal disputes process is a mystery, very inconsistent, and changes based on who is heading the disputes dept at PayPal at the time. Quite different than the credit card chargeback system which is at least consistent.
Quoted from grimholtz:Meh. Not sure about that. I assume you mean the buyer can open a dispute.
You can do a chargeback from your credit card company, or you can claim that the game is fake - then PP requires you to show pics that the game was destroyed; you are not allowed to return it to the seller.
Buyers pull these scams every day.
Vid - great selling advice! I would like to add one small thing when selling that one might consider -
This happened to me once. I had a buyer come and play a game of mine that was for sale that
he had played all the time when he was younger. He played the game for a good 20 minutes + and
when he was done, he had changed his mind about buying. He said he had "beat it like a rug".
Ever since , I've maintained a "3 game rule". That's all the time I'll allow anyone to play a game.
That may even be too long. You don't want them to "scratch that itch".
YMMV
M
Very timely read. I'm working with a new buyer on Pinside (10/30) with no posting activity that wants to buy my machine and ship it to Japan. I declined PayPal, so he wants a Wire Transfer from an international bank. I told him no go; let's do Escrow.Com. Have not heard from him since. Thank you for the advice; as I fear giving anyone my banking information.
Quoted from Dallas_Pin:Very timely read. I'm working with a new buyer on Pinside (10/30) with no posting activity that wants to buy my machine and ship it to Japan. I declined PayPal, so he wants a Wire Transfer from an international bank. I told him no go; let's do Escrow.Com. Have not heard from him since. Thank you for the advice; as I fear giving anyone my banking information.
I sold my AMH to a cat in Italy. International bank wire transfer. My bank told me that those can't be faked. Or something to that order. It was a legit purchase. Contacted my bank several times to make sure it was legit and that the transaction was not fraudulent.
I first read this guide a couple years ago when I was toying with the idea of selling my first pin. That sale wound up being cash on the glass to a well known pinsider - about as low risk as it gets. This time around, I sold a pair of restored EMs to someone I didn't know and shipped them halfway across the country. Without the rock solid advice of this guide I wouldn't have known how to protect myself. I used escrow.com and gladly paid their $130ish fee in exchange for being assured that there would be no monkey business in this north of 5k transaction. Thank you, Vid!
I started using Zelle electronic bank payment for selling some pinball parts. It's nice since it doesn't have fees like paypal. I'm wondering if anyone has more experience with Zelle? Is it any better/worse than paypal as far as risks and things that can go wrong?
I see there was some minimal comment on it a year ago in this thread: wondering if anyone has experiences to share by now?
Quoted from HighVoltage:Is it any better/worse than paypal as far as risks and things that can go wrong?
Enroll with the Zelle® App Using Your Online Banking Username & Password
https://www.zellepay.com/link
"Some banks let you enroll with the Zelle app using your online banking username and password. If your bank supports this feature, it’s an easy way to link your bank account."
Can you think of anything that could go wrong giving a third party direct access to your bank account? 
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Enroll with the Zelle® App Using Your Online Banking Username & Password
https://www.zellepay.com/link
"Some banks let you enroll with the Zelle app using your online banking username and password. If your bank supports this feature, it’s an easy way to link your bank account."
Can you think of anything that could go wrong giving a third party direct access to your bank account?
USAA started pushing it. I said no thanks, since the user agreement I got from USAA for Zelle **specifically stated** that they would collect my phone number and use it in marketing campaigns. I don't know if it's changed now, but.. eyah, no.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Enroll with the Zelle® App Using Your Online Banking Username & Password
https://www.zellepay.com/link
"Some banks let you enroll with the Zelle app using your online banking username and password. If your bank supports this feature, it’s an easy way to link your bank account."
Can you think of anything that could go wrong giving a third party direct access to your bank account?
Who said anything about Zelle Mobile or third-party apps?
You seem to be misinformed as to how Zelle works: I don't use any apps, haven't given any third-party access. I have an email address associated with my bank account. I give a buyer my email address, and they send me the money specifying my email address. No apps are involved unless the buyer is using one, but I don't think that's necessary either, you just use your online bank account.
I'm wondering if anyone has experienced disputes or the like mischief as with paypal.
Quoted from Coyote:USAA started pushing it. I said no thanks, since the user agreement I got from USAA for Zelle **specifically stated** that they would collect my phone number and use it in marketing campaigns. I don't know if it's changed now, but.. eyah, no.
I wonder if that's the app only: I have been using Zelle on my Chase online account with email only (not mobile phone) and have never received a marketing call.
Quoted from HighVoltage:You seem to be misinformed as to how Zelle works
Zelle seems to be misinformed, the quote is directly from their FAQ. Take it up with Zelle.
Banks have screwed their customers tens of thousands of different ways and over the years have become fairly well regulated. If they screw up you typically are not responsible.
Most 'new' forms of payment are comparatively unregulated. You have only the word of a company with no track record and no obligation to fix their own screw-ups.
Let's walk through this process you describe together to assess the potential pitfalls.
Quoted from HighVoltage:I have an email address associated with my bank account.
So to transact, three entities need your email address. Chase, Zelle, the person you're doing business with.
Quoted from HighVoltage:I give a buyer my email address, and they send me the money specifying my email address.
PITFALL ALERT: Zelle and Chase have a relationship. The details of that relationship are somewhere in the terms of service (that you probably agreed to) for Chase or Zelle. If you want to know what risks you're taking and what protections you have you better find, read, and understand them.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Zelle seems to be misinformed, the quote is directly from their FAQ.
Thanks for your concern, but it's obvious you were more interested in being a smart ass than contribute anything useful: making non-relevant quips about mobile apps.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:PITFALL ALERT: Zelle and Chase have a relationship. The details of that relationship are somewhere
Duh... exactly why I'm asking about people's experiences and comparison to Paypal.
Below are the terms, but as with most of these things it's difficult to infer practical implications, which is why it's always interesting to hear about other's experiences.
https://www.chase.com/content/dam/mobile/en/legacy/documents/legal-docs/chasenet_la.pdf
Quoted from HighVoltage:Who said anything about Zelle Mobile or third-party apps?
I don't use any apps, haven't given any third-party access.
Zelle is a third party with access to your bank account.
You and your bank are the first two.
That might actually be true, similar to linking a bank account to paypal, which I've avoided until now, but have sold more than I buy with paypal so have been looking for other options.
But if one has to accept electronic payment some way, if it's between Paypal & fees & bank-linking versus no-fees & Zelle, the latter seems preferable to me.
Need to do some more googling, but it actually sounds like selling with Zelle is a better option based on reports like these. Sounds like Zelle doesn't get involved and banks are much less likely to reverse than paypal or venmo.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17021656/zelle-venmo-scam-false-transactions-bank-app-no-refunds
Quoted from HighVoltage:Need to do some more googling, but it actually sounds like selling with Zelle is a better option based on reports like these. Sounds like Zelle doesn't get involved and banks are much less likely to reverse than paypal or venmo.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17021656/zelle-venmo-scam-false-transactions-bank-app-no-refunds
Which would mean the opposite for buyers. Long story short, take other people's money with Zelle, give other people money with PayPal.
It sounds like a reasonable way to send (or receive) payment in an irrversible, cash-equivilant manner. So use it as such - to friends and family not strangers you’ve never met. You could use this send payment to an escrow agency, for example.
So even after reading this thread, had a buyer from out of state wanting to pay with cashier's check. Immediately I thought "what if that check is fake? even if it looks legitimate"? I decided to go ahead and accept an offer of half cash half paypal (they didn't want to do 100% cash because traveling in a car for 4 hours with that much cash). Keep in mind I did my home work. I googled their name and phone number, came up as a lawyer from area they said they were. I had them sign a bill of sale that said "I played ____ pinball machine and accept the condition it's in as-is, does not come with any warranties. If this payment is disputed this form will be sent to paypal". I also have video of them walking up to my door, video of them playing it working, and video of them hauling it out. On top of it, I used an old paypal account I don't normally use to receive the money, then immediately transferred it to my main account. I figure it would be harder for Paypal to reverse the funds that way..I don't have any banks tied to that old account that paypal can go after. And not like Paypal can rip funds from my main account, that account didn't accept those funds from the seller, I accepted it from myself (which I also did in smaller increments).
I think I have my bases covered
Quoted from toyotaboy:...came up as a lawyer from area they said they were. I had them sign a bill of sale...
Decades ago, working in my garage; I pop out to see a luxury car, parked with the trunk open and golf clubs standing in the roadway. I walk to the other side and see a gentleman with his son changing a flat. They turn to talk while the son leans against the car pushing it off the jack; Thud. I head back to the house, grab my jack and swing it under the car. On the ground as I'm seeking a lift point,"Are you a doctor". The gentleman seemed puzzled and I added, "I see you have golf clubs from the trunk". He responds, "No, I'm a lawyer". I stopped moving the jack, picked myself from the ground, looked at him and asked, "Could you write me a release of liability". He huffed, got down and moved the jack under the seat and began pumping. I shouted, "Noo, Noo, not there!", "I see papers in your car, just write a release of liability". He does it, but seems angry. I fold the paper, slide it into my pocket and finish the job. He snottily says, "How much do I owe you". My response, "Nothing, have a nice day". I didn't tell him that I'm an awarded Judge's son in the County he works and also carry the judge's name.
Hi folks. Figured I would bump this thread for the new blood entering the hobby . Maybe Vid will xmas gift pinside with a printable PDF scan of the receipt form he utilizes ( post 346 point 6 ) .
Enjoy your day ! Shane
Just spotted this on reddit: 
pasted_image (resized).png
Don't forget to inspect bills during cash transactions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/rv2mui/sold_my_ipad_in_public_space_at_night_in/
Quoted from ForceFlow:Just spotted this on reddit: [quoted image]
Don't forget to inspect bills during cash transactions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/rv2mui/sold_my_ipad_in_public_space_at_night_in/
Movie prop money is easy to come by. I had this sitting just next to me when I read your post.
I live next to a city known for their carjackings. I have a real bank envelope stuffed with plenty of these bills including 100s maybe seeing if they’d take that instead of my truck.
Course my luck I’d get charged with trying to pass fake bills.
5AFE3629-01B9-4DE5-AFCD-09F50C55E730 (resized).jpegQuoted from EJS:I live next to a city known for their carjackings. I have a real bank envelope stuffed with plenty of these bills including 100s maybe seeing if they’d take that instead of my truck.
Are you able to negotiate with a car jacker? Sad this is becoming a common occurrence in so many places. 
As for inspecting bills, I think I might buy one of those bill pens. How well do those work?
Quoted from TigerLaw:Are you able to negotiate with a car jacker? Sad this is becoming a common occurrence in so many places.
As for inspecting bills, I think I might buy one of those bill pens. How well do those work?
Well the carjackers are between the ages of 12 and 17. I don’t know of anyone who has tried to negotiate it’s an idea I came up with that would defuse the situation quickly and safely so I like this plan. Don’t know if it would work.
As for the pens….you may be better off taking notes on the security features. There are ways to cheat the pens now. Also any bleach product will make a real bill appear fake. Get yourself a black light flashlight. It will accomplish the same task plus you can have more fun with it.
Counterfeiters used to strip $5s to make 50s so the pen would still pass the bill.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Just spotted this on reddit: [quoted image]
Don't forget to inspect bills during cash transactions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/rv2mui/sold_my_ipad_in_public_space_at_night_in/
Those notes actually say “replica” on them.
Quoted from vid1900:1. Search any of their pics using Tineye.com or even Google to see if they stole the pics from the web.
2. Ask for a close up pic of some detail unlikely to be pictured on Google, like the serial number tag.
3. Ask about other pins in the pictures. If you recognize the side art of Embryon, ask about other "Classic Bally" they own. If they don't know what other games they own by name, that might be a bad sign....
4. Go voice and actually speak with them. Are they pinheads? They will talk your ear off. Operator? They will be gruff and answer most of your questions with "Hey, this thing was in a bar for 40 years, not kept in a museum". Nigerian? They will have a heavy accent and there will be long pauses while they look up answers on the web. Widowed? "I don't think I have the key. Don't you have one?"
If they constantly have excuses for not going voice, it's a scam.
5. Are they asking to be paid by Western Union? Always a scam.
6. Pretend that you are traveling to wherever they are, and see if they balk. "Detroit???? I'm going there on business day after tomorrow! Any problem with me stopping by and seeing the game?"
7. Ask a trick question that will trip up a con man. "Just to be sure this is a genuine Xenon, all the circuit boards are red, right?". A con man will agree with you, a honest person will say "Uhh, I think they are all green....?"
8. Google their phone number and/or email address.
9. Always pay using an Escrow service.
Someone posted on a Facebook site that he has inherited some machines that have been lying around for about 30 years. He's not ready to sell yet but will send me pics, how do I know that he is legit?
He says the machine I want was working well 30 years ago, it's an EM that has been stored in an apartment, do I believe him? do I risk buying it sight unseen?
I am halfway across the country. This machine is the only one on my wish list so I am very tempted, he asked how much I'm willing to offer.
I have now learned about escrow which sounds secure, and I'm wondering about shipping, I read something about Michelle, is that a person who specializes in shipping pinball machines, and if so what is her contact information?
Quoted from Skybug:I read something about Michelle, is that a person who specializes in shipping pinball machines, and if so what is her contact information?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/shipping-options-for-games
Quoted from Skybug:Someone posted on a Facebook site that he has inherited some machines that have been lying around for about 30 years. He's not ready to sell yet but will send me pics, how do I know that he is legit?
He says the machine I want was working well 30 years ago, it's an EM that has been stored in an apartment, do I believe him? do I risk buying it sight unseen?
I am halfway across the country. This machine is the only one on my wish list so I am very tempted, he asked how much I'm willing to offer.
I have now learned about escrow which sounds secure, and I'm wondering about shipping, I read something about Michelle, is that a person who specializes in shipping pinball machines, and if so what is her contact information?
Tell him you have a buddy that lives nearby that's gonna go check it out and pick it up and see if they squirm or not.
Quoted from Skybug:Someone posted on a Facebook site that he has inherited some machines that have been lying around for about 30 years. He's not ready to sell yet but will send me pics, how do I know that he is legit?
He says the machine I want was working well 30 years ago, it's an EM that has been stored in an apartment, do I believe him? do I risk buying it sight unseen?
I am halfway across the country. This machine is the only one on my wish list so I am very tempted, he asked how much I'm willing to offer.
I have now learned about escrow which sounds secure, and I'm wondering about shipping, I read something about Michelle, is that a person who specializes in shipping pinball machines, and if so what is her contact information?
EMs will almost certainly NOT work after being stored even if working when put into storage. Motors gum up. Contacts oxidize. All can be fixed but even if 100% legit, they will take some work to get going. EMs need to be played to keep working and are pretty solid if they are.
Quoted from Jazman:EMs will almost certainly NOT work after being stored even if working when put into storage. Motors gum up. Contacts oxidize. All can be fixed but even if 100% legit, they will take some work to get going. EMs need to be played to keep working and are pretty solid if they are.
Yes I know. I'm willing to clean all the contacts and work on it over time, cuz I really can't afford a newly refurbished one which recently sold for $5,500 (!)
Apparently, the scam business is booming...
Warren, [...], requested data on fraud and scams on Zelle from seven banks starting in April. The report cites data from four banks that tallied 192,878 cases worth collectively $213.8 million in 2021 and the first half of 2022 where a customer claimed they had been fraudulently tricked into making a payment. In only roughly 3,500 cases did those banks reimburse the customer, the report found.
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Sana'a
Blue Ridge, GA
