In general, watts is the rating of power that a speaker can handle. If the original rating is known, try to match if you can. A higher rating is OK... Compared to a lower rating which might get blown out by the original circuitry (amplifier).
for sure power handling capacity (watts) is a factor, but for small power pinball machine amp sections a speaker's efficiency rating (Db/1w/1m) is more the deal, higher the better, especially for bass! most the time you can turn it down if needed, but an inefficient speaker you're turning the amp UP might warm the amp.. I'm about a fan of MCMelectronics(dot com) paper cone cloth surround woofers for their very high efficiency ratings and low prices.
inductors? I've hand wound my own on 1/4 diameter 1-1/2" long ferrite cores with insulated magnet wire. maybe not perfect but using a core requires less magnet wire. 24 gage carefully wrapped about 7 layers (crazyglue helps) made pretty fair low pass for small wattage, not having a meter I couldnt tell what the values for inductance or resistance, but they work!
Quoted from 0geist0:Why not a separate powered subwoofer under the pin? I picked up a really nice Polk 10" sub for $40. Sounds fantastic on my ST Pro.
+1 for external subs. Easy plug and play with Lorenzo's $35 board and it will go way lower and louder than any internal replacement
Quoted from Damonator:+1 for external subs. Easy plug and play with Lorenzo's $35 board and it will go way lower and louder than any internal replacement
I agree. I replaced my cabinet speaker of my T2 and went through all the steps to help optimize it, but in the end the external subwoofer sounds way better. Way deeper bass and no rattles/vibrations from the playfield glass. The external subwoofer is also 100% easier to install.
The 8mh inductor is out of stock on Parts Express with no ETA. Found this chart to calculate the difference going up or down a bit.
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter1.html
*Edit to answer my own question.
That is the audio crossover coil which acts as a high pass filter and for the backbox speakers and is wired in series. If you're upgrading the cabinet speaker only then don't remove that coil.
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:That is the audio crossover coil which acts as a high pass filter and for the backbox speakers and is wired in series. If you're upgrading the cabinet speaker only then don't remove that coil.
Yup, only doing the cab speaker. Thanks!
Just finished doing this!! Havent even got it dialed right in yet, but can already tell the difference in depth to the sound. totally happy!
It was VERY easy to follow along with the diagram wrote up in Post#20
Since I got this competed and just love the sound in my FT so much I have now got three more full sets to do other pins of mine. After buying Sub/L-Pad/Crossover for each the kits come to about just under $70 CDN including shipping and taxes.
Believe me, this upgrade is worth more than $70 each for me.
Quoted from northerndude:Since I got this competed and just love the sound in my FT so much I have now got three more full sets to do other pins of mine. After buying Sub/L-Pad/Crossover for each the kits come to about just under $70 CDN including shipping and taxes.
Believe me, this upgrade is worth more than $70 each for me.
Any chance you could share your shopping list? A few of the parts links in this thread are no longer available.
These three items plus wire and ends is all you need to follow Post#20 directions.
I'm mostly pumped to get my WW done, I will be giving the cab a facelift once spring hits. I want to hear it with these "Feel the Power of the Wind"!!!!
Resurrecting an old thread. How do you wire an l-pad to a DCS game, using the original backbox speakers? It appears that the speakers are 8 ohm in parallel, so it’s presenting a 4 ohm load to the sound board. And I don’t see a 4 ohm l-pad device?
Starting to seem like it’s easier to just add an external sub. Ha...
The following is from the very first post - looks to be easy!
"DCS games (includes wpc95):
For those that may ask, there is a simpler solution for DCS and WPC 95 games. Simply swap the cabinet speaker with an efficient 4ohm sub. You don't even need a crossover because the cabinet speaker is already electronically crossed over at 300hz. There are two amps in the DCS games. This allows you to only worry about the subwoofer swap without backbox impedance and rewiring. If the cabinet speaker you choose is efficient enough, you can be done. But if not, you can add the L-Pad above or maybe just add a 20 ohm resistor (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=017-20) to lower the backbox volume.
If you choose to add the resistor, you would desolder the two wires that go to the 5.25" left speaker on the backbox. One goes to the amp, one goes to the right speaker. Separate the wires. Solder the resistor to the + lug of the 5.25" speaker. Solder the wire that goes to the + of the right speaker also to the + lug of the 5.25" speaker. Solder the wire that came from the amp to the other end of the resistor. That's it.
Finally, for DCS games you'll want to choose a decent and efficient sub. The wh88 will work pretty well as it is extremely efficient. However, it's 8 ohm so it takes some power from the amp away in impedance. I recommend using one of these MCM 10" speakers: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-3211. They are 95db efficient so you may not need any resistors if you use this. You will lose some volume form the small 6" cutout on your cabinet but it's fine. If you choose this option, your entire cost for the DCS addon is around $15 shipped.?
Thanks. I think, if I’m reading things correctly, all of the data is based on replacing the backbox speakers. I’m trying to avoid that. Either way, I thought the l-pad stuff all assumes an 8 ohm load, which I think is not what DCS has for the backbox speakers. I’m not sure if an 8 ohm l-pad will work with a 4 ohm load?
I know there have been other posts about modifying the sound board resistors to accomplish the same thing. Maybe I’ll go that route if I can’t figure out the l-pad solution...
Quoted from northerndude:The following is from the very first post - looks to be easy!
"DCS games (includes wpc95):
For those that may ask, there is a simpler solution for DCS and WPC 95 games. Simply swap the cabinet speaker with an efficient 4ohm sub. You don't even need a crossover because the cabinet speaker is already electronically crossed over at 300hz. There are two amps in the DCS games. This allows you to only worry about the subwoofer swap without backbox impedance and rewiring. If the cabinet speaker you choose is efficient enough, you can be done. But if not, you can add the L-Pad above or maybe just add a 20 ohm resistor (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=017-20) to lower the backbox volume.
If you choose to add the resistor, you would desolder the two wires that go to the 5.25" left speaker on the backbox. One goes to the amp, one goes to the right speaker. Separate the wires. Solder the resistor to the + lug of the 5.25" speaker. Solder the wire that goes to the + of the right speaker also to the + lug of the 5.25" speaker. Solder the wire that came from the amp to the other end of the resistor. That's it.
Finally, for DCS games you'll want to choose a decent and efficient sub. The wh88 will work pretty well as it is extremely efficient. However, it's 8 ohm so it takes some power from the amp away in impedance. I recommend using one of these MCM 10" speakers: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-3211. They are 95db efficient so you may not need any resistors if you use this. You will lose some volume form the small 6" cutout on your cabinet but it's fine. If you choose this option, your entire cost for the DCS addon is around $15 shipped.?
I have 8 Polk subwoofers under 16 games. Hook up in 5 minutes, can hook up more than one game, tons of power and easy to unhook when I sell the game. And you can sell a subwoofer to anyone that owns a tv or stereo when the time comes.
That said, I'm probably gonna try one of those $20 cabinet speakers just for kicks. I have nothing better to do.
Quoted from pinzrfun:I have 8 Polk subwoofers under 16 games. Hook up in 5 minutes, can hook up more than one game, tons of power and easy to unhook when I sell the game. And you can sell a subwoofer to anyone that owns a tv or stereo when the time comes.
That said, I'm probably gonna try one of those $20 cabinet speakers just for kicks. I have nothing better to do.
Polk 8 or 10" sub's are the best option for sure.
I was trying to do it on the cheap. I have a new sub on the way for my sttng, just hoping to gain some control of the balance between treble and bass...
The damn polk subs went up a lot in price this year, at least the one I own for my tv did..
Quoted from pinzrfun:I have 8 Polk subwoofers under 16 games. Hook up in 5 minutes, can hook up more than one game, tons of power and easy to unhook when I sell the game. And you can sell a subwoofer to anyone that owns a tv or stereo when the time comes.
That said, I'm probably gonna try one of those $20 cabinet speakers just for kicks. I have nothing better to do.
My Fish Takes sounds fantastic with this setup. I love it. I have the parts ready to build in three more pins
How do you guys get the wire outside of the cabinet for an external sub? I don’t like the idea of drilling a hole, ha.
Quoted from PinJim:How do you guys get the wire outside of the cabinet for an external sub? I don’t like the idea of drilling a hole, ha.
Lift up one of the metal vents on the bottom of the cab in the back, or poke your finger up from underneath, you might liberate one staple from cab/vent but that is the simplest way to pass that wire down through outside the cabinet.
Has anyone done this for a SYS 11 ? Reason i'm asking is i'm NOW finally ready to get this set-up in my WhirlWind. I see now the audio out on the board has 4 pins - 2 different connections that go to the cabinet speaker and the front speakers separate. I think my WPC I did had only one output and it was easy to follow.
Thx in advance if anyone has an exact idea?
I had this all ready to follow but came to a roadblock when I saw 2 separate channels? (on my WhirlWind)
615B90FE-3C27-48DC-B723-5DBC04BA7767 (resized).jpegMaybe I don't have to do anything other than toss in the cabinet speaker with the crossover since they are already separate channels? would they be amp'd separately also?
Quoted from Grandnational007:Placeholder for later...great thread for the frugal pinhead looking to upgrade the factory setup!
no, no, lol, I need help here!! See 2 posts up!! Some SYS 11 guru.. GRUMPY ?
Quoted from northerndude:Has anyone done this for a SYS 11 ? Reason i'm asking is i'm NOW finally ready to get this set-up in my WhirlWind. I see now the audio out on the board has 4 pins - 2 different connections that go to the cabinet speaker and the front speakers separate. I think my WPC I did had only one output and it was easy to follow.
Thx in advance if anyone has an exact idea?
I had this all ready to follow but came to a roadblock when I saw 2 separate channels? (on my WhirlWind)[quoted image]
My system 11 write up is here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-system-11-speaker-upgrade-wiring
I would like to clarify from the original post a misunderstanding on speaker impedance. The rating on an electro-dynamic speaker (which is the type used for the woofer in a pinball) is the lowest point in an impedance curve at one frequency. Speakers impedance is a combination of many factors that changes over it's operating range. So if you have three-way system (woofer, mid-range and tweeter) which a lot of these single channel pinball machines have the minimum impedance is not a simple parallel calculation. I have attached what a graph is for a typical system. The tweeter is a ribbon type which through a transformer built it has a pretty flat impedance. Look at the lower frequencies how much the impedance changes. The load on the amplifier is anything but constant.
I also included an SPL graph which tells you how loud the speaker is at a given frequency.
I am going to be changing my 3 pinball machines over with upgraded loudspeaker setups. I will post what is in a machine and what I end up doing to change and improve the sound. I will not be going the active amplification route. Not just because of the cost but also considering what the sound files that are built into the machines just don't need it in my opinion.
surrounds_impedance.PDFsurrounds_spl.PDFI have an odd problem, hoping someone has seen it.
When I power off a few of my WPC machines, my subs often begin humming. A low volume, low bass growl.
I did some experimenting tonight to see if I could figure it out. When I turned off TZ, the humming began. So, I disconnected one of the input wires at the sub and the humming stopped, as expected. I reconnected it and it resumed. So, I unplugged TZ thinking that the removal of power to the machine would stop whatever feedback it was getting. Even with TZ unplugged, it continued. Odd. That makes me think it’s some sort of radio interference.
I tried to see if I could find external interferences like LED lights or my phone. No dice.
To be fair, the wire from the game to the sub is unshielded wire. Maybe that’s my problem.
My setup is 10” Polk subs, one per machine.
Quoted from PinJim:I have an odd problem, hoping someone has seen it.
When I power off a few of my WPC machines, my subs often begin humming. A low volume, low bass growl.
I did some experimenting tonight to see if I could figure it out. When I turned off TZ, the humming began. So, I disconnected one of the input wires at the sub and the humming stopped, as expected. I reconnected it and it resumed. So, I unplugged TZ thinking that the removal of power to the machine would stop whatever feedback it was getting. Even with TZ unplugged, it continued. Odd. That makes me think it’s some sort of radio interference.
I tried to see if I could find external interferences like LED lights or my phone. No dice.
To be fair, the wire from the game to the sub is unshielded wire. Maybe that’s my problem.
My setup is 10” Polk subs, one per machine.
I have his issue with Gottlieb games mostly. The speaker in the lower cabinet acts like microphone and the gain on your sub must be high as its amplifying the sound to create a feedback loop. Doesn't matter if the game is on or off. On some of my games you can slap the cabinet and it will start humming. I solved it my plugging the subs into the service plugs inside the game if it goes on/off with the game, or wiring in a 110 plug on the switch side of the pinball machine. So when you flip the pinball machine off, the sub is off.
Quoted from nerbflong:I have his issue with Gottlieb games mostly. The speaker in the lower cabinet acts like microphone and the gain on your sub must be high as its amplifying the sound to create a feedback loop. Doesn't matter if the game is on or off. On some of my games you can slap the cabinet and it will start humming. I solved it my plugging the subs into the service plugs inside the game if it goes on/off with the game, or wiring in a 110 plug on the switch side of the pinball machine. So when you flip the pinball machine off, the sub is off.
Thanks, that makes sense, and I'm not sure if I ever would have put those pieces together myself. You're 100% correct, I can nudge my machines and the sound comes/goes. It's odd, to say the least, but what you outlined explains it.
I'll have to think about how I'm going to address it. Unfortunately, in the pre-DCS games, unplugging the sub in the cabinet isn't an option due to how they wired the speakers in series. And one of my games is an import without a service plug.
Back to the drawing board. Unfortunately, I don't want to live with it as it's annoying, at best. =(
Just curious, has anyone utilized J509 as a line-out audio source on pre-DCS boards? Just thinking it’d be less of a hack. But I don’t want to blow up my sound board in the process of trying...
Actually sounds like a ground loop problem. Are your subs plug into a different outlet than the game. This means the grounds are not the same and thus creates a 60Hz hum. Measure the ground on the sub and measure against the ground on the game. Also loose grounding straps can also cause this issue to come up.
Quoted from colofan:Actually sounds like a ground loop problem. Are your subs plug into a different outlet than the game. This means the grounds are not the same and thus creates a 60Hz hum. Measure the ground on the sub and measure against the ground on the game. Also loose grounding straps can also cause this issue to come up.
I considered that too, but it happens when a game is totally unplugged. So there’s no ground reference at all for the machine, other then the legs on the carpet. Maybe that’s enough? I still think it’s the speaker acting as a microphone....
I bought some better signal wire that is shielded with a grounding wire. I’m going to try the J509 plug and will report back on the results.
Well that was an epic failure. I tied into J509 and used it to see my sub. It made...no sound. Zilch. Nothing. Ugh.
Back to the drawing board again....
Quoted from colofan:Actually sounds like a ground loop problem. Are your subs plug into a different outlet than the game. This means the grounds are not the same and thus creates a 60Hz hum. Measure the ground on the sub and measure against the ground on the game. Also loose grounding straps can also cause this issue to come up.
I don't think its a ground loop issue either as I've tried ground lifting, ground loop isolators and such. Its just a feedback loop from high gain and the speaker producing a signal. I believe I disconnected the lower cabinet speaker and the hum goes away.
I wonder what J509 is supposed to do. I know clays guide has a hack around r102. Maybe that’s my next step. But what was the original intent of J509, without the hack? Clearly it’s tied into the sound circuit...
Quoted from northerndude:I had this all ready to follow but came to a roadblock when I saw 2 separate channels? (on my WhirlWind)
The system 11 WW manual is showing the 3 speakers wired as one channel in parallel. The WPC circuit is one channel wired in series.
ww (resized).PNGSome more info from my experimentation.
Keep in mind my goal here is to get a useable “line out” signal from a WPC pre-DCS game so that I can feed it into my subwoofer. I know a lot of people simply pull the signal off of the subwoofer wiring. For me, I got a lot of feedback / hum when I tied into the subwoofer wiring. So I wanted to explore J509, the theoretical “line out” connector on the sound board.
My first experiment was to tie into J509 without an board modifications. I did that, wiring pins 1 & 3 on that connector to the RCA input on my powered sub. Zilch. Nothing. If my sub was making any sound, I couldn’t hear it over the machine. Back to the drawing board.
In Clay’s guide, he recommends removing resistor R102 from the sound board, and then connecting the negative side of C21 to pin 3 on connector J509. Supposedly that gives you a “line out” that’s not effected by volume control. I made this mod today to my CFTBL and once again wired it to the RCA input on my powered sub. Shazam. This seems to work.
Right now I’m not hearing the hum / feedback. I’m using a shielded cable but thus far haven’t grounded the shield.
I’ll post more feedback after testing this setup for a while. I modified my TZ sound board too, so it’s next in line to get a sub wired up like this.
81673132-5B20-4020-BDF3-0694CDE4CD70 (resized).jpegC80D53FC-8B65-4B2D-90CD-2ED8CBAC8AFC (resized).jpegD8DE9427-73D1-44A7-ACC6-63F69896FAE4 (resized).jpegED9EA099-818B-45AE-B053-98AB3592B1A8 (resized).jpegJust another follow up. My TZ and CFTBL (pre-DCS games) have the J509 hack that removes R102 and ties into C21. From header J509, I have a shielded cable that ties into an RCA connector on my Polk 10” powered sub. Both games sound great.
On my STTNG (DCS), I added a header to J6, and once again added a shielded cable that feeds an RCA input on my Polk 10” powered sub.
All 3 seem to work as anticipated. And there’s no hum when the machines are on or off. So far, this is a success.
I know this is a very old post, but wanted clarification on this for Gilligan’s Island before I screw something up. Contrary to the original post here, Gilligan’s has an 8 ohm cabinet speaker (with capacitor), an 8 ohm left backbox speaker, and a piezo 4” tweeter on the right with a coil wired to it.
Can I just swap the cabinet speaker with the suggested Pyramid 8 ohm speaker? Do I have to have an inductor crossover? Do I have to rewire as in the diagram in post #20 even if the left speaker is 8 ohm instead of 4? Is the piezo speaker 4 ohms?
Quoted from adamtoth:I know this is a very old post, but wanted clarification on this for Gilligan’s Island before I screw something up. Contrary to the original post here, Gilligan’s has an 8 ohm cabinet speaker (with capacitor), an 8 ohm left backbox speaker, and a piezo 4” tweeter on the right with a coil wired to it.
Can I just swap the cabinet speaker with the suggested Pyramid 8 ohm speaker? Do I have to have an inductor crossover? Do I have to rewire as in the diagram in post #20 even if the left speaker is 8 ohm instead of 4? Is the piezo speaker 4 ohms?
You can check the ohms very easily with a multimeter/oh meter and go across the pins.
And they’re almost always stamped with ohm rating
Quoted from adamtoth:Can I just swap the cabinet speaker with the suggested Pyramid 8 ohm speaker?
Yes, you can.
Quoted from adamtoth:Do I have to have an inductor crossover?
No, the crossover isn't needed. However, without it you'll be sending all frequencies to the speaker.
Quoted from adamtoth:Do I have to rewire as in the diagram in post #20 even if the left speaker is 8 ohm instead of 4?
The rewiring shown is for adding an L-pad into the mix (to control volume of cabinet & speaker panel separately). You don't have to rewire it as shown.
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