(Topic ID: 153604)

Tried to fix broken ground braid. Transformer got shorted and burnt (WPC FT)

By aerobert

8 years ago


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  • 42 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by aerobert
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#1 8 years ago

Hi guys.

I was doing some repairs on my FT and wanted to repair a broken ground braid, aaaand I messed up. I must've short circuited something because the insert lights lit up like Dulles airport in Die Hard 2 and I burnt the plastic off of two cables in the transformers. The amount of smoke was....significant.

Anyway... I made two "repairs". As I didn't have a second machine available to compare, I did some quick image googling and went ahead. The picture attached is where I did my first fix. I'm fairly certain that this braid should be connected all the way. So I added a strip in between the two where they are at their closest. Can someone confirm this is correct?

The second "fix" was on the left side. For some reason, I figured the braid should be attached almost the same as on the right side. The right side runs the braid from the upper right corner (by the ball launch), through the power/transformers/speaker and so on. The braid on the left side looked like it was broken off next to the start button, so I ran a new braid from this corner down to the braid on the left side (where the lamp matrix schematic is). I believe this was the mistake, yes?

I think the machine survived, but I didn't do anymore work. I turned it off and removed the ground braids I added.

IMG_6757_(resized).JPGIMG_6757_(resized).JPG

#2 8 years ago

Yeah I f-d up bad. Things are not working properly anymore.

Upon power on:

- The GI comes on
- I get one "bong" from the speaker
- The DMD is dead
- The inserts doesn't come on
- The reel spins and looks for a ball, but continues checking with intervalls.
- The ball tray kicks up one ball only
- The GI goes off after a while, and then comes back on. But it's not a reset. It doesn't bong.
- LEDs on CPU card is lit and one is blinking. I didn't put any energy in which is which now.

F....me

#3 8 years ago

Hmm, not sure what could have caused this based on the information given. Usually almost everything metal is grounded, so if some live wire touched that it would short out, but (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there are fuses behind everything that goes to the playfield, so they should go first.

I figure something has shorted out one of the transformer windings, and that is causing some voltages to be out. You'll have to track down which one. I'd start by checking fuses and voltages in the backboard at least.

CPU is probably okay.

#4 8 years ago

Don't turn the game on again until you have tested out your transformer. If you don't know how to do this, don't do it yourself, ask a friend that absolutely knows how to help you. You may have burnt up one or more of the secondary windings on your transformer like FreeBee said. Either way, don't risk doing any more damage by turning it on again at the moment.

If you live in NJ, I may be able to help you.

#5 8 years ago

Thanks for the info and offer for help, but I'm a bit far from NJ (Sweden).

So the short circuit is not because of the stupid ground braid I applied? At two spots:
1) According to picture in first post (connected them where they are the nearest).
2) From top left corner braid (by the start button) to the ground braid on the left side of the cabinet by the lamp matrix note.

As I mentioned, when the thing started burning plastic, the lights went REALLY bright like they were LEDs. The two cables that burnt from the transformer used to be light blue or some kind of gray with a white stripe I think. Hard to tell, see picture. They are right next to each other on the transformer. I reinsulated them with electrical tape.

Also, one of the dark blue/white cables on the other side of the molex connector that runs to J101 and provide 13,3VAC has burnt off and is connected in twin on the other one. But I think this comes from when I by mistake put J101 one pin wrong to the left when cleaning it the first day I got it.However, the game functioned perfectly after reinsulating the cables and refurbishing the power drive board. All caps and rectifiers have been changed and also completely reflowed the board.

I've made two mistakes so far and they probably cost me this machine.

image_(resized).jpegimage_(resized).jpeg

#6 8 years ago

Also, the blue/white cables running to J101 on one side of the molex seem to be of darker blue than the blue/white coming from the transformer on the other side. But maybe they are the same cable that got burnt?

However if so, it doesn't explain why and where the insert lights got the higher voltage from.

#7 8 years ago

Got a multimeter? Something is touching something it shouldn't . Your ground braid fix didn't cause the extra voltage to the lights. I'd disconnect everything and start tracing wires, starting at the burnt connectors. Could be an easy fix, just might take a lot of time. Don't worry about the machine being beyond repair, you aren't at that stage yet.

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

the lights went REALLY bright like they were LEDs.

Ah, that is what they saw in Scotland yesterday:

#9 8 years ago

I haven't bought one yet, but I have access to one so I will start measuring up once I get those 13,3VAC cables sorted.

Naturally, I have removed the "braid fix" before I posted this thread. This evidently stopped shit from burning, so I have my doubts on the braid thing not being the cause from the start. But I will be careful and check stuff before powering it on again.

Thank you so much for all your input.

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

Ah, that is what they saw in Scotland yesterday:
» YouTube video

lol, while "wooooah you're not gonna eat that are ya?" and crackling echoing in the distance.

#11 8 years ago

Look for pinched wires along the edge of the playfield that are possibly shorting to the playfield bracket, etc.

#12 8 years ago

Check your fuses and make sure they are the right values. This sorta thing isn't supposed to happen, a fuse is supposed to blow first. If your GI line was affected by whatever happened, the GI fuse should have popped.

#13 8 years ago

The fuses were checked and changed when I got the machine some months ago.

I have not check them after this incident yet. I'm very annoyed and angry with myself and this sucked the last energy and patience out of me. Discussing this and analyzing the possibilites with you guys is lowering my blood pressure.

But I will provide more answers and info as soon as I can bring myself to look at it again.

#14 8 years ago

Turning the machine on is not the best idea right now, so I'll have to take back my words of checking voltages. It would indeed seem that the 13,3V winding got a short somewhere.

I would try to see if the winding itself is at least intact, maybe try measuring the resistance of that winding. If that is okay the wires need replacement. I've never had a case like this on hand, so I'd wait around for someone who has more experience to give some advice.

Maybe you can source another transformer from somewhere cheap?

#15 8 years ago
Quoted from FreeBee:

Hmm, not sure what could have caused this based on the information given. Usually almost everything metal is grounded, so if some live wire touched that it would short out, but (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there are fuses behind everything that goes to the playfield, so they should go first.

Correct, the ground braid touches every piece of metal that that passes to the outside of the machine so no one can get shocked. A fuse should have blown but obviously didn't and your transformer wiring became the backup fuse I would have thought the main fuse would have blown before you lost transformer wiring but for some reason this also didn't happen.

Sorry I know there isn't a lot of useful information here.

#16 8 years ago

I can see a piece of braid broken off and stuck in the playfield slide.

#17 8 years ago

Grumpy, can you draw a circle perhaps? I know it's broken off, but I can't wrap my head around where it might've short circuited. Or why (if) my fix was the cause of this ordeal.

Updated topic to better reflect the issue.

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

I have not check them after this incident yet. I'm very annoyed and angry with myself and this sucked the last energy and patience out of me. Discussing this and analyzing the possibilites with you guys is lowering my blood pressure.

Don't sweat it. I'm not afraid to admit I've done a lot of this sorta thing over the years of "repairing" things. You'll get this back up and running again.

In the meantime, I'd start keeping an eye out for a replacement transformer. They're not always easy to source. Don't buy one yet, just start looking around at availability in case you have to go that route.

#19 8 years ago

Thanks a lot man. A friend is coming over in a few days and we will do some fault tracing. I guess first step is to unplug the transformer, power it on and measure all the leads to check the voltage (carefully!). I guess opening it up and give it an optical inspection also. I'm under the impression that the secondary winding usually has some sort of fuse connected in serial, yes?

Step 2 will be to repin the harness side of the molex and replace the two 13.3VAC leads going to J101.

Once this is sorted I can start focusing on boards and small stuff again, if it doesn't work properly that is.

#20 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

Grumpy, can you draw a circle perhaps?

I don't know how to. But if you look just to the right of the green wire at the very top of the pic.

#21 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

I'm under the impression that the secondary winding usually has some sort of fuse connected in serial, yes?

Yes, all the secondary windings on the transformer that go to your PSU get fused prior to being rectified (or not rectified in the case of GI). And your mains power is fused prior to getting to the transformer as well. So your first plan of action is simply disconnect the secondary connector that goes to your PSU, and measure AC on all the various secondary taps and make sure they're outputting what they should be. If any are dead, it is time to shop for a new transformer.

I had a transformer burn up on me while repairing a Comet. Only one of the windings on the secondary failed, so I technically could have just bought a separate transformer to provide just that needed AC voltage, but the risk of fire was obviously not worth it with small children in the house.

#22 8 years ago

Thanks Grumpy, I see it now! I will take a closer look and see how it's positioned when the PF is lowered. The slide is obviously what broke the braid off in that place to begin with.

Many thanks for the info thedefog. Yes that's one option, to get something that only provides 13.3VAC to J101. Would it be an issue with two PSU's with two separate main switches? I mean, in a simple installation and if you don't turn them on simultaneously, would it cause issues with the boot process of the machine? For example, lets say that everything get it's voltage straight away as usual, except you flip the 13.3VAC a second later.

#23 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

Yes that's one option, to get something that only provides 13.3VAC to J101. Would it be an issue with two PSU's with two separate main switches?

Technically, there is nothing wrong with having a second AC transformer to provide a voltage you need. I would be fearful that the rest of the transformer would short out and possibly start a fire if this were my game though.

Transformer replacements can be expensive, so I see the temptation. But I personally cannot recommend doing this for the sake of safety. You cannot possibly know what happened inside that transformer without taking it apart/destroying it. There could very well be an insulation barrier that has broken down internally that is ready to cascade to another winding.

#24 8 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

You cannot possibly know what happened inside that transformer without taking it apart/destroying it. There could very well be an insulation barrier that has broken down internally that is ready to cascade to another winding.

That is what I fear too. Especially when I have the machines in the basement. It's unlikely that I will go through with it.
Thanks for your input.

#25 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

That is what I fear too. Especially when I have the machines in the basement. It's unlikely that I will go through with it.
Thanks for your input.

No prob. It sucks, but don't burn your house down over saving a few $.

#26 8 years ago

Slow down a bit. Transformers are a hardy lot, they can take a pretty good beating.

First things first. Fixing a broken ground braid in and of itself will NOT burn up anything.

Reconnecting a broken ground braid that has a short to power somewhere down the line can/will break something. Especially if said short is before any fusing.

Open your prints, disconnect all the transformer outputs that go to the cab, power supply and logic.
Use a voltmeter and test every single output of said transformer.
If one is missing, stop here. If all are in tolerance, continue.
Carefully look at everywhere the braid goes and see if it is loose or jammed against something that has voltage normally.
If clean to this point, reconnect the A/C lines from the transformer to the power supply (power off of course).
You can leave all logic disconnected.
Turn on power and verify all power supply outputs.

At this point, also use your meter on voltage setting and check the ground braids for power using your black lead on where the line cord connects to the cab.
Voltage setting on ac or dc don't really matter just set it to auto and high.
You should see NO voltage on anything with a braid or metal in the cab or on the playfield.
Don't forget to test your lock bar, your coin door, your playfield supports, your side-rails and both sides of your broken braids.

#27 8 years ago

Thanks for your advice Patofnaud. I will follow your procedure, also check all fuses again and measure the braid.

Another thought. What if the plastic around the wires have melted inside the transformer? I don't know how far in they're covered/insulated before becoming a winding. But missing insulation on the cables can be a cause to the short if two cables touch? No?

Quoted from Patofnaud:

Open your prints

What does this mean? You mean schematics?

#28 8 years ago

To add to what Patofnaud said, disconnect all connectors at the transformer and check each wire to be sure none show any continuity to the transformer case (be sure to find bare metal on the transformer case; scrape away a bit of the varnish/glyptal coating the transformer frame). The *only* wire that should show a direct connection to the transformer case is the white-yellow wire (or green wire, depending on the secondary wiring harness wire colors) which *is* connected to the ground braid via the power driver board ground plane connection the circuit board mounting plate in the back box.

Check your work with J101 on the power driver board to be sure you haven't accidentally created a short circuit between one of the connectors where the blue/white wire connects and the ground plane of the power driver board.

(It sounds like your transformer had an internal short between the blue-white winding and the transformer frame.)

#29 8 years ago

Thanks Tony.

Quoted from jadziedzic:

(It sounds like your transformer had an internal short between the blue-white winding and the transformer frame.)

And to add to that,,, if you did, someone may have hacked the ground braids to 'work around' the issue thus causing a reallllly bad situation that you inadvertently found out. Luckily.

Do the tests. Let us know.

And yes, by prints, I mean schematics. Old school term.

#30 8 years ago

Were the grounding changes done around the same time you replaced the caps and bridges?

I'd sooner expect a flub up repairing a driver board to do this than connecting a ground braid.....

#31 8 years ago

Nope, the powerdrive board repair was done two weeks before that by a friend with lots of electronic and soldering experience. It turned out perfect and eliminated the last reset problem I had and everything worked really nice.

Thanks once again for all your advice. Bare with me if the thread is quiet for a while. I will update as soon as I have more information. Interesting theory with ground braid "workaround" Patofnaud.

1 week later
#32 8 years ago

Alright, finally got the thumb out of my ass (as we say in Sweden) and started som initial troubleshooting.

The DMD in my FT did not work after the short, so I swapped it to a WCS and it works fine! So I guess it was the 60V or even 100V that got shorted in my transformer? Haven't had the guts to bring out the DMM and do some measuring yet, but it's a start.

I'll keep you posted.

#33 8 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

So I guess it was the 60V or even 100V that got shorted in my transformer?

If this is the case you are in really good shape since you can get a replacement LCD/LED panel that doesn't use any of the high voltage windings from the transformer.

#34 8 years ago

I guess so, but I also has a burnt off 13.3V (I think it is). The two blue/white wires going up to J101 to be rectified into 12V.

#35 8 years ago

Hello aerobert . I read that you are in Sweden. I had a few questions.
How long have you had the machine? Is the s/n labeled on this machine 220v or 110v? Yes, I heard of 110v machines making it overseas. By chance was the input of the transformer set for 110v and you plugged into 220v?

#36 8 years ago

I've had it since november. It was a slight fixer-upper. A friend had it sitting with several other machines for years.
The machine is originally imported to Germany. So I'm fairly certain it's 220V, even if I hadn't checked it. Wouldn't have bought it he'd warn about it being 110V.

1 month later
#37 7 years ago

Hi! Here comes an answer long overdue!

The transformer survived and works nicely still. All the voltages were good. But the two pins for 15V are fried. We replaced the two 15V wires running to J101 (i think) on powerdrive board.

Not a clean replacement though as I did not have new pins or molex connectors for either side. We just used terminal blocks on both ends and bypassed the two straight on the transformers wiring. Not perfect but works just as good until I get the energy to repin the molex connectors.

The game works just as good again. However the DMD controller board did not survive completely. The fuse F602 (3/8 amps) keeps blowing which means we dont get -125V or -115V to the DMD.
I swapped the DMD to a WCS94 and the DMD works good there and it was not the reason for the fuse blowing. I then swapped the DMD board from WCS to FT and it works good there too. So I just need to replace the DMD board or rebuild it. Bestofpinball here in Europe has a rebuild kit for 10 bucks.

Or do you know what component that might be damaged/shorted? Maybe I need a new forum thread for that.

Oh, and the reason behind all this? Not sure but it looks like the left slingshot coil touched the ground braid. It has signs of some burning to it but it works great. Might explain why the inserts lights shined brightly like a nuke just went off.

#38 7 years ago

Sounds like the high voltage regulator section on the DMD driver board needs rebuilding. This is a very common problem. The parts are cheap and available as a kit from GPE and others for a few dollars.

Have a look at the Pinball Wiki for information on rebuilding this section or send the DMD driver board away for repair if you don't feel comfortable doing it.

#39 7 years ago
Quoted from aerobert:

The transformer survived and works nicely still.

I'm very glad this survived the supernova!

Thanks for updating this thread, I was curious as to what you had found.

For your DMD .... Color DMD does make a nice color display for Fish Tales http://shop.colordmd.com/colordmd-replacement-display-for-fish-tales-pinball-machine/ it's a little spendy, but its a decent option for a 20 year old display; these run off 12V DC, so you can just pull the fuses for the HV section of the display board and just not worry about fixing it.

#40 7 years ago

Thanks guys! I will try a rebuild of the DMD card. Managed to refresh the powerdrive board recently so this might be just as easy.

Thanks for the info on color dmd. It looks great but I think I will sell this FT as I (unannounced) picked up a really nice WWFRR a month ago. Bit of a shame really since I have a secondary stripped playfield which only have minor wear on one of the four main fish. Naturally I planned a clearcoating and swap but I think I will just sell everything as a whole to the next guy and pick up a minty FT in the future.

#41 7 years ago

Glad you didn't have to replace the transformer!

#42 7 years ago

And here's the reason why F602 on the DMD controller keeps blowing. BR2 looks a bit tired. RIP little guy. lol

13262213_10153840193108025_1208508037_o_(resized).jpg13262213_10153840193108025_1208508037_o_(resized).jpg

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