(Topic ID: 92706)

How rusted is too rusted?

By Wahnsinniger

9 years ago


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  • 30 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by 72Devilz
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 9 years ago

I have come across a 70's era gottlieb at a price I'm willing to pay, if I can get it working again. I've not worked on an EM before, but between the pinrepair guides and my professional programming experience, I assume I am capable of understanding the functionality of EM relays.

The relays underneath the playfield do not look too bad (I was able to spin the score relay...), but the relays in the backbox appear entirely rusted... to the point where I saw no un-rusted metal visible. Can these still be repaired? Are there sufficient parts available to replace them?

Thanks for any help.

#3 9 years ago

I did say I'd say thanks for "any help" but you're pushing it...

#4 9 years ago

Yes, these can still be repaired; there are several options for removing rust from parts (e.g., Evap-o-Rust, Oxalic acid, CLR, buffing/mechanical means).

Yes, there are plenty of parts available; pbresource.com, eBay, other collectors, parts games, etc.

It would be helpful to know what game it is though. Most 70's Gottlieb backboxes only contain 3-4 relays (unless you're meaning all the steppers and solenoids too).

Just need more info to be able to provide accurate help.

#5 9 years ago

That's good to hear. I think I'll take the chance and get it. Assuming I do, I'll post some pictures of it on here.

#6 9 years ago

Its so beautiful...
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Got a bunch of reading to do now and need to buy the schematics.WP_20140601_003.jpgWP_20140601_003.jpgWP_20140601_004.jpgWP_20140601_004.jpgWP_20140601_005.jpgWP_20140601_005.jpgWP_20140601_006.jpgWP_20140601_006.jpgWP_20140601_007.jpgWP_20140601_007.jpgWP_20140601_008.jpgWP_20140601_008.jpgWP_20140601_009.jpgWP_20140601_009.jpgWP_20140601_010.jpgWP_20140601_010.jpgWP_20140601_011-753.jpgWP_20140601_011-753.jpgWP_20140601_012-166.jpgWP_20140601_012-166.jpgWP_20140601_013.jpgWP_20140601_013.jpgWP_20140601_014-348.jpgWP_20140601_014-348.jpgWP_20140601_015.jpgWP_20140601_015.jpgWP_20140601_016.jpgWP_20140601_016.jpgWP_20140601_16_20_40_Pro.jpgWP_20140601_16_20_40_Pro.jpg

#7 9 years ago

I have no experience with a physical play counter. Is that accurate? If it has been played 96000 times, wouldn't the playfield be blown out?

#8 9 years ago

I'll go first...

That's way too rusted to repair. I'd be happy to take it off your hands.<g>

#9 9 years ago
Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

I have no experience with a physical play counter. Is that accurate? If it has been played 96000 times, wouldn't the playfield be blown out?

They are generally accurate (they count how many times a game has been started). If the game was maintained during its playing lifetime (on route) with proper cleaning and waxing, then it's possible for the playfields to survive nicely. What kills playfields is improper cleaning, bad environmental storage, no waxing, rusted pinballs and such. This one looks like it was maintained at least somewhat, and the count is about average for the age of it.

#10 9 years ago

That would be too rusted for me work on given the game.

#11 9 years ago

So fixable. Just look at some of the threads.
This is not even close to a parts machine.
The backbox needs some unrusting but probably works fine
The bottom board looks dusty but fine.
Beautiful machine

--Jeff

#12 9 years ago

A little surface rust never killed anyone.... unless they got tetanus.

It's entirely fixable and doesn't look to be in bad shape at all. You'd probably have to take most of those parts off in an better condition machine to clean and adjust points anyhow.

#13 9 years ago

you know it's too rusty, when you put a part in rust remover for an hour, then you come back and it's gone.

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from gooterman:

A little surface rust never killed anyone.... unless they got tetanus.
It's entirely fixable and doesn't look to be in bad shape at all. You'd probably have to take most of those parts off in an better condition machine to clean and adjust points anyhow.

Thanks. Given this both my first project machine (and I'm not looking to restore it to some factory-new shape; just want to make it play well and potentially clean up the side art) and my first EM-game, I'm kinda just running off of enthusiasm here that I'll be able to fix the backbox parts.

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

I have no experience with a physical play counter. Is that accurate? If it has been played 96000 times, wouldn't the playfield be blown out?

nah, 96k is just getting broken in... i'd wager that most em's that are in people's collections have at least that, if not far more... i know all of mine are over 100k...

Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

Thanks. Given this both my first project machine (and I'm not looking to restore it to some factory-new shape; just want to make it play well and potentially clean up the side art) and my first EM-game, I'm kinda just running off of enthusiasm here that I'll be able to fix the backbox parts.

they may "work" in their existing condition... i've seen worse looking parts still work... it may take a few plays to get everything moving, but it wouldn't be overly surprising if most of it still did what it was supposed to do...

that being said, a bit of work and chemicals should clean everything up... de-rusting the parts would just be an additional step in the normal "take everything apart and clean it" part of a shop job...

oh, one more thing... not to be a nanny, but get a tetanus shot... anyone who works on old pins should have one... better to be safe than sorry...

#16 9 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

you know it's too rusty, when you put a part in rust remover for an hour, then you come back and it's gone.

#17 9 years ago

In my limited experience with EM pins they can look quite rusty and work just fine. Only the contact surfaces and moving parts need to be reasonably clean. Brackets the hold parts and other structural components can be a real mess visually and work just as well as super clean ones.

If you are just getting into EMs I would do the least possible to get it working and fix problems as they come up. If you start with a total tear down you may lose interest before you even get to play a game.

I am amazed how my EM pins can have some marginally working parts on them if they have sat unplayed for a while and once I play a few games on them the pin starts to fix itself (contacts get clean enough, things free up, etc.)

#18 9 years ago

After some reading, I took a (slightly) more educated look at the condition of the parts. The score motor and continuous stepper (not sure what feature it is for yet) move freely, as do all the relays. So I believe all of the lower cabinet components are in fine shape. This weekend I'll actually fire it up with the backbox unplugged to at least verify that the score motor works, after checking the fuses are good. From what I've read, I assume that should work. The game can never reset/start because it will not receive any signals regarding that there are credits inserted nor that the score reels have reset to zero, but the game should turn on, and the score motor should spin, correct?

The continuous stepper in the backbox very sluggishly spins when manually activate it. I tested one score reel and couldn't get it to actually step (it spun and went back). The credit unit seems in better shape that the continuous stepper and could work on its own. The handful of relays are pretty rusted, in that some might free up over time, but one of them was frozen/rusted up completely. Overall I'll have to go through each backbox component one at a time, cleaning, strategically de-rusting, and lubricating them until they operate.

This being my first hands-on experience with fixing an EM machine, I am very impressed at the thought put into making the machine maintainable. Each component appears to have either a release latch or small pin that allows it to be removed for service (albeit its still connected by wires). In today's consumer-throw-away environment, its refreshing to see machines designed with the intent that they could be maintained long-term.

#19 9 years ago

Amazing that it could get that rusty yet show little playfield or backglass damage.

#20 9 years ago

I recently expanded my em collection. They are simpler games to play, but still enjoyable. Also parts are relatively inexpensive and usually cleaning/adjusting makes it function again. Nice score on another fine collectible pin.

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

After some reading, I took a (slightly) more educated look at the condition of the parts. The score motor and continuous stepper (not sure what feature it is for yet) move freely, as do all the relays. So I believe all of the lower cabinet components are in fine shape. This weekend I'll actually fire it up with the backbox unplugged to at least verify that the score motor works, after checking the fuses are good. From what I've read, I assume that should work. The game can never reset/start because it will not receive any signals regarding that there are credits inserted nor that the score reels have reset to zero, but the game should turn on, and the score motor should spin, correct?
The continuous stepper in the backbox very sluggishly spins when manually activate it. I tested one score reel and couldn't get it to actually step (it spun and went back). The credit unit seems in better shape that the continuous stepper and could work on its own. The handful of relays are pretty rusted, in that some might free up over time, but one of them was frozen/rusted up completely. Overall I'll have to go through each backbox component one at a time, cleaning, strategically de-rusting, and lubricating them until they operate.
This being my first hands-on experience with fixing an EM machine, I am very impressed at the thought put into making the machine maintainable. Each component appears to have either a release latch or small pin that allows it to be removed for service (albeit its still connected by wires). In today's consumer-throw-away environment, its refreshing to see machines designed with the intent that they could be maintained long-term.

When I get a game that has sat for a long time unplayed the very 1st thing I do is go through the steppers and score reels and make sure they're working properly. There's two approaches to the steppers - I take Tri-Flow lubricant and lightly spray pivot points and the main shaft and then work it good. Use Q-tips and rags/paper towels and get that old grease/gunk out of the stepper. Rinse and repeat 3 or 4 times until it is moving freely. Take apart the coil plunger and clean and clean or replace the plastic coil sleeve. The coil stop should be tight and flat and not mushroomed out. The coil plunger linkage should not be sloppy. Generally, coils are good. Most coils that go bad are continuous duty-type coils. Pinball Resource sells any parts you need for your Gottlieb em game. A "correct" stepper should "snap" back when manually engaged. Check your springs to see if they're stretched out. Pinball Resource sells a spring kit - call and tell Steve what you have and he'll set you up.

The other approach is to completely disassemble the stepper and do pretty much the same as above and reassemble.

I also check all score reels for proper operation when I receive a game. Since yours are rusty I would suggest taking the coil assembly apart and clean everything you can get to and pretty much doing the same as the stepper above. Gunk/dried lubricants/rust are the worst enemy of score reels. Pinrepair.com has good info. on cleaning/adjusting switches and contacts.

Steppers and score reels are two of the biggest problems with these Gottlieb's.

#22 9 years ago

Good timing. Today I watched some clips online for disassembling the score reels, and will have to do the same for the other two backbox steppers.

Are there any videos for disassembling an individual relay (assuming it isn't so crazy simple that there's no point)? All four backbox relay hinges and one pop bumper relay are rusted to the point that they barely can move by hand. Is it realistic to remove the coil and switches from the metal frame so that can soak in some rust remover?

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

Is it realistic to remove the coil and switches from the metal frame so that can soak in some rust remover?

Yep.

The switch stacks are only held in with the screws, and the coil with the brass screw. Note though, that there is also a brass washer between the coil and the bracket, so that after the screw is out to remove the coil, this washer is going to fall out. Make sure not to lose it.

Then the spring for the armature plate can be removed and the armature comes off.

It's easier to take apart than to put back together though. Gotta get that brass screw sandwiched back in place and then get the screw back in. Then the hardest part is getting the switch blades back into the correct rungs of the plastic ladder stack. It becomes easier with practice though. I have the best luck getting the bottom blades in first and then work upwards, with a slight flex.

#24 9 years ago

Had a lead from the Crescendo purchase that came to fruition today:
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When I got it, the score motor kept spinning on power on. I tracked that down to one of the coin switches stuck open. At that point, the score motor would stop, but I couldn't get anything else to happen. The score reels reset if I manually activate the A B latch. If I manually activate the Start relay it pulls in the Hold relay. If I push one of the vari-targets in, it trips the relay to reset them (though they need to be cleaned, as they have some trouble resetting. My next step I guess is to clean the Credit unit so that it properly increments with inserted coin.
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#25 9 years ago

Any ideas what to look for next? Anyone know the specific startup sequence for Pro-Football? (versus the more general non-hold-relay one on pinrepair.com)

#26 9 years ago

Suggest starting a new thread with the game title and issue as the topic.

But coin switches should normally be open; they only close when the coin passes by to trip them.

#27 9 years ago

woot!!! nice looking pro-football there... i really like mine...

Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

Any ideas what to look for next? Anyone know the specific startup sequence for Pro-Football? (versus the more general non-hold-relay one on pinrepair.com)

yea, i've got the startup sequence... as dirtflipper suggested, fire up a new thread and i'll post it there for you and "we"* can work through your issue...

* translated: i'll flail at it, and dirtflipper will find the solution(s)...

#28 9 years ago

Well, if you're ANYWHERE near Dallas, I'll be more than happy to take Crescendo off your hands. My wife has wanted one forever.

#29 9 years ago

Started new thread here http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-pro-football-startup-procedure#post-1699471
Thanks for the help.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

But coin switches should normally be open; they only close when the coin passes by to trip them.

Sorry, mistyped. I meant it was stuck closed and I fixed that so it is open.

Quoted from Frax:

Well, if you're ANYWHERE near Dallas, I'll be more than happy to take Crescendo off your hands. My wife has wanted one forever.

Sorry, I live near Chicago. If I am unable to eventually fix Crescendo then I would rather sell it whole than part it out, so we'll see.

#30 9 years ago

I am salivating over that beautiful pro football wedge head! Nice pick up!

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