New! Dark mode!

Browsing Pinside at night? Getting tired of all the white? Switch to dark mode using the button in the top right (or CTRL-B)!

(Topic ID: 274434)

how ridiculous...this Pinside Top 100 ranking


By ParisPinballAdct

86 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 79 posts
  • 44 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 48 days ago by NoQuarters
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 4 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    pasted_image (resized).png
    63B2C378-E411-42E8-8B99-955703E43E03 (resized).jpeg
    D4043E8B-65EE-4B68-9E97-FF9518025797 (resized).jpeg
    pasted_image (resized).png

    There are 79 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 48 days ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    They don't always get to the top right away.
    Two great pins, TWD and BM66, started out in the 100's for various reasons.
    BM66 due to such early code and some Stern hate based on the way they launched that game and SLE send in a video request etc.
    TWD, another Lyman game, had really early code too and was difficult to get dialed in.
    Both games had potential greatness and finally got there.
    THUS, due to the early barrage of negative voting those two pins will never reach the level they deserve based on more recent ratings.

    Yes, that's true...but those two cases are the exceptions, and I would argue that this is reasonable.

    For example, when I played TWD, I thought it sucked (and I still don't understand what people see in it) and it was likely that this was partially due to early code. But all too often, on location, the early code never gets updated by the operator (unless there is some problem that requires an update)...so that's the code that (non-owners) play and know (and rate by).

    The BM66 near me still had no secondary villain modes the last time I played it (not sure what version it was, but was obviously early). And while I still like the game, I'm not going to give it a better rating just because someone on line says "the new code is great".

    If you are going to release an unfinished game, you can't complain if people rate the game based on what they actually play, not what might eventually get released.

    #52 48 days ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    ?
    So by this argument the IFPA would be fine ranking players using a system where they just averaged your finishing place in tournaments and your rank would just come out in the wash?

    Each tournament has different parameters.
    Pinside game ranking/rating is a set and uniform measuring stick... not a skill based competition relative to other players at a unique event.

    This really comes down to simple math/stats, and engineering a system that has inherent abuse options nuked (or at least limited).

    EV3 provides the perfect example of how owners that rate games just to propr them up has defeated any intrinsic value of the current system.

    pasted_image (resized).png
    #53 48 days ago

    A drag and drop system which forces an actual scale to be used is the simplest way to make an improved system.
    A secondary nuke would be to allow some actual moderation of the bogus raters to have their ratings eliminated form the overall calculation (dont even need to tell them; just do it in the background). Could use the current flag system if needed. A rating gets too many flags... it is eliminated or brought down.

    These behavioral type subjective rating scales are 1 part science/math and 1 path putting behavioral limits in place to stop 'stupid'

    #54 48 days ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    Yes, that's true...but those two cases are the exceptions, and I would argue that this is reasonable.
    For example, when I played TWD, I thought it sucked (and I still don't understand what people see in it) and it was likely that this was partially due to early code. But all too often, on location, the early code never gets updated by the operator (unless there is some problem that requires an update)...so that's the code that (non-owners) play and know (and rate by).
    The BM66 near me still had no secondary villain modes the last time I played it (not sure what version it was, but was obviously early). And while I still like the game, I'm not going to give it a better rating just because someone on line says "the new code is great".
    If you are going to release an unfinished game, you can't complain if people rate the game based on what they actually play, not what might eventually get released.

    Not sure that’s rational. If a game has improved its code the scores should reflect that. I think equally as unfair as owners pumping up the scores of a new purchase are those who played a turd version of a game on location for 5 minutes and decided it sucks. I think this is especially a problem now that games are primarily going into people homes.

    #55 48 days ago

    Personally, I find the top 100 to be useful for a couple of reasons. However, I don't consider it to be authoritative in the least. It is a crowd sourced stack ranking based upon individuals who have limited access to a subset of games over different periods of time.

    First rule of top 100 is not to get offended that your games aren't as high on the list as you want them to be, and games you can't stand are. For many of the games, their Pinside ranking has nothing/little to do with their market value.

    Second rule is to use the top 10-20 as a menu when considering what new pins you would like to evaluate to add to your collection. Rather than trying to remember what all is out there from each of the current manufacturers, you can browse through higher ranked pins as a starting point for your research. I like doing this before my local pinball show (TPF), so I can make a list of the newer games that I want to make sure I play.

    Just because others like a particular pin for whatever reasons doesn't mean you will, but don't get offended by it. None of those pins or manufactures wins any trophies for being at the top of the list.

    #56 48 days ago
    Quoted from Malenko:

    The fault isn't in the system or the way its set up, the fault is with the people using it. The custom filters really are the best solution.

    I don't even look at the top 100 anymore, its clearly biased by people trying to justify their shiny new purchase.

    If pin "x" is so 10/10 awesome at time of review, why is it up for sale 3 months later with less than 100 plays on it?

    #57 48 days ago

    I would say the combination of Top 100 and dedicated Pinside thread for a particular game is most helpful. Direct feedback from people who know the game.

    #58 48 days ago
    Quoted from robin:

    Some years ago I had a mail exchange with Lyman about this topic and we came up with a great alternative for the top 100, I really liked it. It boils down to this: every Pinsider would be drag and dropping their own top X list together. A forced list, where each position garners points. Top game gets, say, 100 points. Seconds game gets 99, third get 98. Etc. People could easily drag, drop and reorder their ratings as preferences change all the time.

    Quoted from robin:

    I would very much like to implement that system. Possibly it would replace the current top 100 system. Don't worry, the reviews would remain as they are very valuable. The new system would still have a review option.

    I would suggest that you do not change the current top 100 feature. Just let it continue to be available and utilized.

    Add the new feature and let pinsiders use one, the other or both.

    I would rather have two ways of viewing rankings, than just one.

    If down the road you feel like scraping one of the features then do away with it. You could even put it up to a vote. But you would need to give pinside time to use both.

    #59 48 days ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    The reason why TMNT (and similar "new" titles) always get "on top", is that early on, nearly the only people who have played them are the people who bought them early. And these people always rate them very highly for a few reasons...
    1) If they didn't like the theme/design they probably wouldn't have bought it (except for those few people who buy EVERY new machine).
    2) They want to feel that they "made a good choice" and "got their money's worth".
    3) The "new" toy is usually the favorite toy, until that newness wears off.
    I would think that a machine should not be listed until like 6 months after release. Just limiting it to 100 ratings or something will not do much (as it will still be the first 100 purchasers that are rating it). It really needs to be on location for a while, so people who haven't invested in a purchase also get to vote on it. Of course, the pandemic has made this even harder for now, as location play has dropped off greatly.
    I would like to see an alternate Top 10 (or maybe 25) that is computed by everyone submitting their personal favorites list (in order). This would mean that everyone would be voting using the same "scale", and it would be much harder to try to manipulate the results (as the best you could do is rate 1 machine your favorite, and the worst you could do is not list a machine at all). No more "vote a 10 for all the machines I own and vote a 1 for all the others".

    4. Douches shilling to protect their investment

    #60 48 days ago
    Quoted from LukyDuck:

    I would suggest that you do not change the current top 100 feature. Just let it continue to be available and utilized.
    Add the new feature and let pinsiders use one, the other or both.
    I would rather have two ways of viewing rankings rather than just one.
    If down the road you feel like scraping one of the features then do away with it. You could even put it up to a vote. But you would need to give pinside time to use both.

    I disagree. Would be best to make a fresh start for a full revamp.

    No need to eliminate that old system, but value in hiding it form eyes when implementing the new system.
    Give the new system time to breathe on its own.

    If that is not an option then best case would be to port over the current user info into a forced rank order for each person.

    If a user has 15 games rated then place them under the new system. Tied games get randomly assigned at start to which is lower rank order.

    #61 48 days ago

    There is nothing wrong with the system.
    It’s the users.
    I can understand people rating the games they own high. That will all even itself out.

    What I don’t understand is people that rate games spitefully just for kicks.

    Some people will rank a really good pin a 2 or 3 with no explanation. Seems petty to me.

    #62 48 days ago

    You can't fix the users, but you can tweak the system to even things out some. The drag-and-drop ranking idea has a lot of merit.

    #63 48 days ago

    No pin with those big, shitty mono-targets on the sides belongs in the Top 10.

    Elwin won't use them. Borg puts them on everything lately. Elwin > Borg.

    #64 48 days ago

    Personally I enjoy reading the comments on the games more than the actual rating and ranking. I’ve been meaning to do more of those too. Glad to hear this feature is staying.

    #65 48 days ago

    On thing I find incredibly insightful and useful is the comments on the ratings.

    There are some users that go into great depth describing game rules, pros, cons, etc.

    When I’m researching a game that I’m not all that familiar with the gameplay that is one of the first places I look. I will jump streight to guys like caucasian2step that do really in-depth reviews which are important in my opinion.
    If a new system is developed, this information definitely needs to be accessible.
    Although many reviews are totally worthless, there are many that are gems of information and I read them quite often.

    #66 48 days ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    Yes, that's true...but those two cases are the exceptions, and I would argue that this is reasonable.
    For example, when I played TWD, I thought it sucked (and I still don't understand what people see in it) and it was likely that this was partially due to early code. But all too often, on location, the early code never gets updated by the operator (unless there is some problem that requires an update)...so that's the code that (non-owners) play and know (and rate by).
    The BM66 near me still had no secondary villain modes the last time I played it (not sure what version it was, but was obviously early). And while I still like the game, I'm not going to give it a better rating just because someone on line says "the new code is great".
    If you are going to release an unfinished game, you can't complain if people rate the game based on what they actually play, not what might eventually get released.

    I'm not complaining about the ratings. The only ratings that matter for me are my own, like many others.

    Just pointing out its not always going straight to the top for various other reasons, as such they have no way to recover in these rankings.

    That's why you can modify your settings to view it any way you want in rankings.

    But hey, its all in fun anyhow!

    #67 48 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    No pin with those big, shitty mono-targets on the sides belongs in the Top 10.
    .

    Uh oh, then we gotta split releases up like Metallica that only got them with later.

    #68 48 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    No pin with those big, shitty mono-targets on the sides belongs in the Top 10.
    Elwin won't use them. Borg puts them on everything lately. Elwin > Borg.

    x 1000%

    Elwin is a player that cares a lot more about the player experience and Borg should take note.

    Those mono targets suck and are partially to blame for the shitty code on games like Munsters.

    #69 48 days ago

    I find any purely fan based list basically pointless, sadly these days even critic based list are equally silly. I would be far more interested if every one had their own say top 25 that I could look at as part of their profile. The generic Pinside 100 is pointless to me.

    #70 48 days ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    I would be far more interested if every one had their own say top 25 that I could look at as part of their profile. The generic Pinside 100 is pointless to me.

    I think that’s already a thing except it’s top 10

    #71 48 days ago
    Quoted from EJS:

    I think that’s already a thing except it’s top 10

    That is just games they have given a rating in the Top 100 so its all tied into this silly system. I would prefer when you create an account you just added a few games that are you favorites. Pinball is really bad for if its new its the best. I wonder how many people rate pins they have barely played.

    #72 48 days ago
    Quoted from nicoy3k:

    Not sure that’s rational. If a game has improved its code the scores should reflect that. I think equally as unfair as owners pumping up the scores of a new purchase are those who played a turd version of a game on location for 5 minutes and decided it sucks. I think this is especially a problem now that games are primarily going into people homes.

    But that's my point, if you put out a "turd version" of a game, you can't be surprised when it ends up with a bunch of bad votes. Sure, maybe "some time later" the "good" version comes out, but odds are the (non-updated) machine out on location is still a "turd".

    The people who buy the game (and update it) may be happy, but the guy who tries it out on location will walk away thinking it's a turd - and he'd be right.

    #73 48 days ago

    My (main) problem with the current system is that I find myself adjusting the individual component scores to intentionally make my relative ranking order list make sense. In other words, the individual scores for sounds, fun, playfield art, etc. are just a hinderance, adding no real value. I just don't want to go to the trouble of answering all of the categories in a coherent way. Just let me do a drag and drop rank order list. I think it would be far easier, and people would therefore enter far more rankings.

    #74 48 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    4. Douches shilling to protect their investment

    That's number 2 on his list already.

    The other problem with this format is somehow older games that are good, but not great have a strangle hold at the top. Monster Bash probably shouldn't be on there, yet here we are.

    -1
    #75 48 days ago

    As long as medieval madness is in the top 5 it will be bogus to me.. cant stand that game.

    #76 48 days ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    That's number 2 on his list already.
    The other problem with this format is somehow older games that are good, but not great have a strangle hold at the top. Monster Bash probably shouldn't be on there, yet here we are.

    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    As long as medieval madness is in the top 5 it will be bogus to me.. cant stand that game.

    I think MB and MM clearly deserve to be up at the top, and I think EHOH and POTC are over-rated. Just shows you how different people are different.

    (and I think WH20 is way under-rated)

    #77 48 days ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    I think MB and MM clearly deserve to be up at the top, and I think EHOH and POTC are over-rated. Just shows you how different people are different.
    (and I think WH20 is way under-rated)

    I have a restored WH2O and would have to disagree

    I really really like it but it’s no EHOH, JP or STH for that matter

    But it’s fun for a few plays

    Agree that POTC is overrated

    MB is the most gorgeous pin ever. CGC version. Also deserving of its lofty status

    I’d say top 8-15 ish though

    #78 48 days ago

    Back when Zach and Dennis were doing TWIP, they had a segment where Dennis did an audio version of the drag and drop list. I thought Dennis covered his thought process well. I thought at the time that this is how the top 100 should go.

    Count me in for a "Head to Head" top 100 list too. I say Head to Head as I don't want to tell Robin how to code and implement it, lol.

    Thinking about the implementation some more could it just be a series of machine a vs. machine b questions and an algorithm (I know it is easy to say when you don't have to develop it) to compare all the results? I wonder how many questions it would take to get a realistic sense of ranking all 500 odd games?

    #79 48 days ago

    It's alright as is. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just use your head when looking at it. It's all subjective anyway. The comment section is the best part.

    Most people would say some games shouldn't be near the top and that other games are overlooked or get an unjust rap. Look at it and interpret to your own bias or flavor. Nothing will ever look close to some manner of correctness to everybody.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    From: $ 12.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 44.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    $ 64.95
    $ 69.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 27.95
    From: $ 20.00
    Playfield - Other
    Gameroom Mods
    From: $ 9.99
    $ 4.49
    Electronics
    Yorktown Arcade Supply
    $ 10.00
    Playfield - Protection
    Filament Printing
    $ 99.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 12.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    From: € 30.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Creo Pinball
    $ 69.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 70.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    $ 999.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    From: $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 5,899.00
    Pinball Machine
    Gulf Coast Pinball, LLC
    From: € 25.00
    Flipper Parts
    TheDudeMods
    $ 99.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Pinball Sales
    $ 99.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 4.95
    Apparel - Unisex
    ULEKstore
    $ 19.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 8.00
    Electronics
    Third Coast Pinball
    $ 229.00
    Lighting - Led
    PinballBulbs
    $ 26.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 10.50
    Playfield - Protection
    The MOD Couple
    $ 25.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Rocket City Pinball
    £ 50.00
    There are 79 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside