(Topic ID: 289950)

How much longer until all top 10 pins are newer games?

By greeneye

7 months ago


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  • 77 posts
  • 44 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by drsfmd
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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    There are 77 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 7 months ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    I've only glanced at the top 100 a couple of times. Today I looked at the top EM 100 for the first time since you mentioned it, didn't even know it existed. My god that list is even more useless than the other one. Williams Lady Luck 4-player is number 1? You could pull a game out of a hat with your eyes closed and come up with better. Quick Draw is 68 and Fast Draw is 230 and they're the exact same game but 2 player vs. 4? Not one of the genius Gottlieb 50's single-players in there? The list should come with a laugh track.

    The problem with the EM top 100 is that hardly anybody rates them.
    There is not a single EM pin in the entire system where the rating goes into the triple digits (100 or more ratings).
    For that matter there’s a ton of them with single digit ratings (9 or fewer) and countless others that are not even listed because they have no ratings.

    The entire list of top 100 EMs could be manipulated and changed if a few people went on there and rated a bunch of machines.
    I suppose on a long enough timeline it would balance itself out (maybe).

    #52 7 months ago


    Quoted from Coindork:The problem with the EM top 100 is that hardly anybody rates them...I suppose on a long enough timeline it would balance itself out (maybe).

    I just went there and rated three or four that I used to own. I've had a lot of them but have only rated about 10-20%. I hope my 100% unbiased, even-handed and straight-shooting opinions will help out. Seriously though I don't enjoy giving a game a bad rating. I don't like some games that others consider to be very good, and vice versa.

    #53 7 months ago

    Top 100 list is like a "what's hot now" list really. A true top 100 of all time list would have to weigh in how long each game is ranked in the top 10/20/50 over years and years to then determine which ones hold up. For instance, Twilight Zone will always be one of the top games, as it dominated the top 100 lists since they were started in the early days of internet access.

    The top-rated game right now is a buggy mess code-wise, with failing solenoids, but nobody cares about those minor details. Look at all the lights!!!

    #54 7 months ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    I just went there and rated three or four that I used to own. I've had a lot of them but have only rated about 10-20%. I hope my 100% unbiased, even-handed and straight-shooting opinions will help out. Seriously though I don't enjoy giving a game a bad rating. I don't like some games that others consider to be very good, and vice versa.

    The problem is a lot of people don’t get the opertunity to play a lot of the EM machines on location (at least out here).
    Out of all the locations here in Phoenix that have pinball, I can only think of two (Electric Bat and Starfighters), that have them in their rotation. Most other locations are 90s and newer (emphasis on newer), or maybe at best have an 80s solid state or two in the mix.

    Out here you basically have to go play them at other collectors houses or places like The Museum of Pinball or Pinball Hall of Fame.

    #55 7 months ago

    I think a lot of those rating are by members who are trying (maybe subconsciously) to justify the cost in their head. A lot of the new games in the top 10 aren't really anything special other than they are brand new.

    #56 7 months ago
    Quoted from Charles_Kline:

    I think a lot of those rating are by members who are trying (maybe subconsciously) to justify the cost in their head. A lot of the new games in the top 10 aren't really anything special other than they are brand new.

    Dude, good to see you posting on here.
    I didn’t realize you were on this site.

    #57 7 months ago

    Let me teach you how to read game ratings...

    Is Metallica rated number 1? If not the list is outright bullshit and manipulation. If it is #1 it’s also bullshit and manipulation, but it’s more accurate bullshit.

    #58 7 months ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    >>How much longer until all top 10 pins are newer games?>>
    I have a very broad definition of 'newer game'... one with the big flippers instead of the little ones.

    And the newest pins of all are Chicago Coin Cowboy and Big Flipper.

    #59 7 months ago
    Quoted from PinballJeff:

    Who doesn't love a 69 Camaro SS/RS, 1969 Boss 302 or 1963 Split Window?

    Sorta prefer the 1967 Stingray. ‘62 SS 409 would top my list.

    #60 7 months ago

    One thing to consider is that older games had the advantage of receiving many of their ratings when there was significantly less competition.

    For example, TZ has over 250 ratings that are 8 years old or older. There were a lot less machines 8 years ago. Therefore those ratings were garnered when all games had less competition and held loftier sentiments in people's minds.

    #61 7 months ago

    LOL. That's comical.

    -1
    #62 7 months ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    Top 10 from 2008 https://web.archive.org/web/20080515092200/https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100
    Twilight Zone
    Medieval Madness
    The Addams Family
    Attack from Mars
    Indiana Jones
    Monster Bash
    Lord of the Rings
    Tales of the Arabian Nights
    Cirqus Voltaire
    Theatre of Magic
    last archive from 2016, just before Aerosmith (first Stern game with LCD) arrives in 2017
    https://web.archive.org/web/20161226012845/https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100
    Medieval Madness
    Twilight Zone
    Monster Bash
    Attack from Mars
    Lord of the Rings
    The Addams Family
    Metallica (Premium/LE)
    Indiana Jones: The Pinball Adventure
    Metallica (Pro)
    AC/DC (Premium/LE)
    in each case 100% of the machines are from that current (DMD) epoch.
    2021?
    Guns n' Roses (3)
    Medieval Madness (4)
    Pirates of the Caribbean (JJP) (3)
    Monster Bash (3)
    Attack from Mars (4)
    Elvira's House of Horrors (2)
    Jurassic Park (Stern) (3)
    Iron Maiden: Legacy of the Beast (2)
    Twilight Zone
    Metallica (2)
    It's been over 20 years for MM+AFM+MB+TZ+AF+IJ. They're incredible games and have staying power, but it's not shocking that pinball has released tables that give them a run for their money now.
    Modern rules are a huge game-changer imho. And for a lot of people the modern sound, video, and light make a huge difference too.

    Right. And that's why the "top 100 greatest best whatever-this-that pinball list" is IN REALITY has become the "Flashy pinball toys that people with money to burn are most likely to purchase and need to vote to justify their purchase" list.

    The average pinball owner has changed dramatically in the last 10 years and the machines themselves can and should not be compared to what was around 20 or 30 years ago. It's the main reason why that list makes little sense now. You don't need it once you've been here a few years. After that, you know what you like and want to own and shouldn't need a list to justify it. You can customize the list to your liking but that immediately removes that "warm fuzzy feel good about my $$,$$$ purchase justification" factor that people spending money require. It was all pinball freaks and geeks 10+ years ago, not like that any more AT ALL and the list reflects that fact.

    #63 7 months ago

    List needs a new filter option: Only consider ratings from old timers, even if their review is newer.

    And make the default 5 years!

    #64 7 months ago

    I’m sure this has been said before ... and it introduces maybe 1/4 the problems it solves (still net gain imho) but...

    I’d like an option to exclude ratings from people that own the pin or have owned it in the past 2 years.

    Sure, if you love a pin you might own it. That might even be me. I know, it’s not perfect. But it does help with the “I purchased the this $10,000 game and it’s 10 out of 10”.

    It would just be an optional filter.

    #65 7 months ago
    Quoted from greeneye:

    The way JJP and Stern (and others) are pumping out games...

    Well, Stern, yes. JJP? "Pumping out games"? That's...that's a bit more than a stretch to me. I mean, sure: they *said* they were going to be doing 2-3 titles a year, but that was 2-3 years ago in the early days of Wonka's release. It took forever and a day for them to get around to releasing G'n'R, and there's nothing notable on the horizon for them, that I know of or have even gotten wind of.

    When they start doing multiple titles in a given year, then that statement *may* apply. Stern? Yes, you bet. Give them credit where it's due: they bring out a few new games each year. JJP? Not even one per year, and it's really closer to one every two years.

    Now, I'm not trying to be overly critical, here...I'm simply saying that I'd hardly say that JJP is "pumping them out".

    #66 7 months ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    There are far too many recent releases in the top 100 already. Most shoot to the top, and eventually settle back down to where they belong. I have long argued that there should be some lockout period before a game can even enter the ratings. For example, Elvira, Jurassic Park, Deadpool, and TMNT are all currently in the top 25... does anyway really want to make the argument that all of those belong in the top 25 games ever made?

    Not sure about TMNT, but I think it is very safe to say they are all top 25 especially JP.

    #67 7 months ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    It's just natural that if somebody owns a thing they will rate it higher than if they don't.

    I'd say it was the more likely that the appreciation of the machine came before the owning of the machine for the most part.

    Why would you buy a machine that you didn't like?

    #68 7 months ago
    Quoted from woody76:

    Not sure about TMNT, but I think it is very safe to say they are all top 25 especially JP.

    I do not share that opinion. In fact, I'd say that NONE of them are top 25, and only 2 could be justified in the bottom half of of the top 100. They just aren't that good. You can't make up for shit layout and shit shots (not to mention absolute garbage quality) with code and light shows.

    #69 7 months ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    I do not share that opinion. In fact, I'd say that NONE of them are top 25, and only 2 could be justified in the bottom half of of the top 100. They just aren't that good. You can't make up for shit layout and shit shots (not to mention absolute garbage quality) with code and light shows.

    Related to a thought I was chewing on: How many new games 40 years ago were top 20 games?

    Answer, damn few.

    What makes you think the situation is any different now? Every single game Stern churns out today is not going to be a top 20 game any more than 40 years ago.

    My wife and I got slagged for reviewing a newer Stern title. We checked it out at a show, loved the theme but simply hated the gameplay so it was struck off our buy list. The vitriol was something to behold, you would have thought we murdered someone's beloved pet dog just because we didn't share their opinion of the title.

    Stern makes some great pins, not all of them are destined to become "classic."

    #70 7 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Related to a thought I was chewing on: How many new games 40 years ago were top 20 games?
    Answer, damn few.
    What makes you think the situation is any different now? Every single game Stern churns out today is not going to be a top 20 game any more than 40 years ago.
    My wife and I got slagged for reviewing a newer Stern title. We checked it out at a show, loved the theme but simply hated the gameplay so it was struck off our buy list. The vitriol was something to behold, you would have thought we murdered someone's beloved pet dog just because we didn't share their opinion of the title.
    Stern makes some great pins, not all of them are destined to become "classic."

    Had the list existed 30 years ago, the classic WPC games would go straight to the top of the list, and remain where they still are today. IMO, they are just better games. The *only* thing the modern games have that's better is deeper code.

    I'd argue that there are a handful of decent Stern titles in recent years, but there hasn't been a truly GREAT game from Stern since TSSP. But I'll also be the first to admit that I'm a "Stern hater"... though I really like all of the JJP titles other than Hobbit. The JJP games *feel* like WPC games to me.

    #71 7 months ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    There are far too many recent releases in the top 100 already. Most shoot to the top, and eventually settle back down to where they belong. I have long argued that there should be some lockout period before a game can even enter the ratings. For example, Elvira, Jurassic Park, Deadpool, and TMNT are all currently in the top 25... does anyway really want to make the argument that all of those belong in the top 25 games ever made?

    I would absolutely agree with JP being up there.

    #72 7 months ago

    Kind of interesting...

    In the 70s, I thought Gottlieb had the best (EM) machines - by far.
    In the 80s, I thought Bally had the best (SS) machines - by far.
    In the 90s, I thought Bally/Williams had the best machines - by far.
    In the 00s, Stern had the only machines.

    Now, we have Stern, Spooky, JJP, CGC, American, etc. and I don't think any of these are clearly best.
    I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

    #73 7 months ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    Had the list existed 30 years ago, the classic WPC games would go straight to the top of the list, and remain where they still are today. IMO, they are just better games. The *only* thing the modern games have that's better is deeper code.
    I'd argue that there are a handful of decent Stern titles in recent years, but there hasn't been a truly GREAT game from Stern since TSSP. But I'll also be the first to admit that I'm a "Stern hater"... though I really like all of the JJP titles other than Hobbit. The JJP games *feel* like WPC games to me.

    If you believe Stern hasn’t made a great game since TSPP, you’re either anti-Stern or you don’t like pinball as much as you used to so nothing can be as good as the games you first loved.

    #74 7 months ago
    Quoted from DrJoe:

    If you believe Stern hasn’t made a great game since TSPP, you’re either anti-Stern or you don’t like pinball as much as you used to so nothing can be as good as the games you first loved.

    Stern has made some decent games since TSSP. I am of the opinion that TSSP is the last (only) Stern game that could compete with the WPC games in terms of quality, "fun" (very subjective) and replayability. I've played almost all of the Stern titles since then, and most I can walk away from without giving them a second thought.

    As far as games I first loved, I've been playing since the early 70s. There are some games from that era (and earlier) that I have great fondness for, but wouldn't put in the top 100. In the early 90s, WPC was churning out home run after home run. One only need to look at the resale values of those games vs recent Stern titles to tell that most people agree with me. Anti-Stern? Yeah, I guess I am. The quality of their games pales in comparison to WPC and JJP titles, and they try to make up for it with light shows and more code. Earrings on a pig as far as I'm concerned.

    #75 7 months ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    Stern has made some decent games since TSSP. I am of the opinion that TSSP is the last (only) Stern game that could compete with the WPC games in terms of quality, "fun" (very subjective) and replayability. I've played almost all of the Stern titles since then, and most I can walk away from without giving them a second thought.
    As far as games I first loved, I've been playing since the early 70s. There are some games from that era (and earlier) that I have great fondness for, but wouldn't put in the top 100. In the early 90s, WPC was churning out home run after home run. One only need to look at the resale values of those games vs recent Stern titles to tell that most people agree with me. Anti-Stern? Yeah, I guess I am. The quality of their games pales in comparison to WPC and JJP titles, and they try to make up for it with light shows and more code. Earrings on a pig as far as I'm concerned.

    I’ve been into pinball for a long time, have a large personal collection (60-some games from all eras, of which I do all the maintenance of), route games, and own a pinball cafe with 20 or so pinball machines that get regular, heavy use.

    Stern games require the least amount of maintenance and are the most reliable machines from my experience. A heavy cabinet doesn’t mean a quality build / reliable game. JJP machines have been far less reliable as an example.

    I’m not trying to convince you that you’re wrong, just giving my thoughts on the matter.

    #76 7 months ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    I do not share that opinion. In fact, I'd say that NONE of them are top 25, and only 2 could be justified in the bottom half of of the top 100. They just aren't that good. You can't make up for shit layout and shit shots (not to mention absolute garbage quality) with code and light shows.

    Looking at your collection pinball stops in 96.

    I like older games. Every generation has a specific feel which is why my collection has the variety that it does, but wpc wasn't the end all be all of games.

    Sad truth is most have a cookie cutter ruleset. Williams had the funds and was willing to put in the time to come up with some very cool toys, toys that have been recycled by former williams designers at stern. Capcom was willing to take risks williams couldn't, but both manufacturer's were limited by their time.

    Alien's rgb gi, playfield screen, and vastly superior sound lead to a level of immersion that williams could never achieve. It has one real toy, the alien head with its associated magnet. The toy itself is nothing to write home about, Rudy has more actuation, but because of all the other things it sells itself in a way rudy cannot. The xenomorph randomly breathing, its jaw moving in sync with the sound that doesn't sound like its coming out of a telephone, the lighting accentuating the whole affair is just better.

    Williams rulesets, get really really old. They start to feel cookie cutter. Turtle allows co op, allows the user to select compitition mode or not, it allows you to play individual style challenges. The layout is fun, smooth even, fast, is it more fun to me than the creech I just let go? Sure, because within a week I saw everything creech had to offer. The same could be said of a number of top 50 wpc games on here.

    #77 7 months ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Looking at your collection pinball stops in 96.

    True. The games I want to own that came after that are ones that I can't justify buying.

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