500k to a million, I'd guess.

Equipment, supplies, staff, insurance, facilities, utilities, parts...it adds up quick.

As a start you can at least double that - probably more.....a million dollars these days is chump change - seriously, I mean that.

Naturally there are apples and oranges as well. You cannot compare the startup costs of the example companies given by the OP with Homepin for example.

Those startups are able to buy in practically everything they need where we have to design and build every screw from scratch.

bout tree fiddy

Haha. Eight to Ten Million and that's if you have been in the business and have vendor contacts that can actually deliver. Im probably low at that even.

When are you going to update your website? It's still talking all over the place like 2015 hasn't happened.

I have someone doing it for me and he has been hounding me daily for pictures and words to update it. I just haven't given them to him yet.

It is not a high priority currently for a few reasons.

I don't sell anything direct such as replacement boards etc so that is up to my re-sellers to promote these goods. When pinball machines are closer we will certainly have something better for "show & tell" but to be frank, again, it will be my re-sellers responsibility to do this.

We are running on a shoestring both money and staffing levels are well below what we could use and fixing a website is exceptionally low on my priority list I can assure you.

If you want up to date information better to follow our facebook page.

facebook.com/HomepinPinball

Unless you're Kevin Kulek.

If that's the case, put a "COMING SOON" page with your logo on the main page and delete all the rest. Having a bunch of outdated content is way worse than just having a one page teaser website.

I don't do facebook, nor do I recommend anyone else use it, either. It's an abusive relationship.

image (resized).jpeg

Just dump the website, especially if it's not used to sell product direct. It's 2016, use social media instead.

I thought I effectively had....

Alot more than a Plumbing Company......

how much does it cost to start a pinball company?
the same as every other start-up, more than you thought

Leaving the corpse is not a good reflection, especially when fixing the issue would take like 10 minutes or less.

Like I said earlier - I have someone doing it - all things take more time money and effort than originally thought.

If you don't like the "old" website, don't look at it - look at the Homepin Facebook page instead - I fail to see the issue.

Should just make a home page with your logo and simple yet tasteful redirects to your social media pages that's up to speed with 2017. Easy peasy for a good web designer. If you're interested, PM me and I'll make you a demo from scratch and perhaps we could work something very reasonable out.

I could do it in two or three days.

Someone has apparently updated it in the last month to add a Stripe online payment system to the homepage which seems rather strange considering by admission nothing is sold direct through the site.

http://www.homepin.com/

Snapshot as at 3 Dec 2016.
https://web.archive.org/web/20161203123059/http://homepin.com/

Look, I don't care at all what you do. I'm just offering some perspective from outside your head, i.e. your website looks like crap and hasn't been updated in a meaningful way in like 2 years, which isn't a good reflection on your company.

And if you don't have enough time (less than 10 minutes, probably more like 3-4 in reality) money ($20 if you're paying someone, or free if you do it yourself), or effort (almost none), to replace what's there with a single splash page with a redirect, then your company has much larger problems, and you have my condolences.

I'm sure someone here would VOLUNTEER to fix your site so it was just a splash page that redirected to your social media page(s). There really is no viable excuse.

$4-6 million (US, location dependent) plus a pre-order scheme on your first couple/few game models and then sprinkle in a few "deluxe" models as production of the pre-orders are mostly done shipping.

This might just be the best advice that I've seen on pinside.

Nothing. Just post a preorder link on a website and watch the money come pouring in.

A lot of time & around $50,000. You first need a prototype or something to show you are worth investing in. Then after you can fund raise.

Well above $50,000. The 4-8M figure is closer. I remember reading JJP spent over $2,000,000 before they even had the first prototype WoZ finished.

Start like this:

burn (resized).jpg

10k

Figure you need to pay overhead of core people for 3years... you'll need designer, programmers, engineer. You'll have to contract out art most likely.

Then you need materials and manufacturing costs for your prototypes... probably chump change in the grand scheme... like 10k-20k depending on how much you reuse verse design new..

Then comes the part that is hard to do small scale... how do you get stock and manufacturing for your production run? This is where all the huge capital outlay is.... and why many turned to presales. Figure what's your cost to order parts for at least 100 games... then take that estimate and probably double it to deal with mistakes.

Then figure you probably make no money on game one... and quickly need game two. So add all that up... and hope you have enough money to cover all of this up front.

This has to be many millions.

Spooky beat the curve by doing it as a passion, in existing spaces, with virtually free people, with presales.... and had successes. Not everyone is as lucky and can take many more blows before they hit the finish line (ex:heighway)

I think it depends on the scope and scale of your operation. I'm guessing that Spooky was started with <$1 million in loans/funds. An operation like JJP is significantly more than that.

This is what I'm thinking. People are tossing around numbers with a certain company in mind. The first think I thought of was Spooky. There is no way they started with a million to put into that business. They have grown through dedicated sweat equity and being trusted by their customer base.

But keep in mind JJP was making "the best built, highest quality pinball machine". Thus, costs were higher.

When figuring in the costs. Think if you need to invent everything from the ground up. Or can you use existing parts like flipper mechs and stuff. You start using a different manufacture's licensed parts in a game you are selling, you'll need their okay to use them.

LTG : )

A frontal lobotomy and your soul.

Here's how I do Facebook for pinball information, it might be of use to other Pinsiders:

I set up a new email address and Facebook account using a believable name (not my own). I only use that Facebook account to follow all the pinball manufacturers, I don't connect with any "Facebook friends". Then I installed an add-on called "Facebook Purity" that removes pretty much all the content except the news feed. This works really well, I can check very quickly if there is any Pinball news without having to go to each manufacturer's Facebook page.

Unfortunately, people don't realize how bad facebook is for them or their privacy. By just visiting a FB page, facebook scrapes info from your machine and uses it to profile you, and if a picture is posted of you on someone else's FB page, they will use image recognition to build a profile on you and connect you to others even though you don't have an account, then use and sell that information. They're a bad, bad company, and they can't die fast enough for me.

Facebook still has a profile on you, and probably has connected you to your personal information in the real world. Their software is pretty insidiously effective for this. You can't get away from it - they can do it even if you don't log in and just visit FB pages.

I mean IP addresses will be a dead giveaway. And then yes, cookies. They can quickly link your false FB account to other real accounts you have.

Seems easier to just skim the pinside frontpage. If there's news, it'll probably be here.

exactly!
facebook sucks ass!

@op
are you thinking crowd funding? or just asking the bank?

Why not use existing generic non-branded parts that are beyond the patent term? Most pinball parts that were patented for the 80's-90's games no longer have live patents. PPS does not deserve anything for those parts being used unless the game manufacturer feels some need to have the association with the old pinball companies in their marketing.

You could. More to look into.

LTG : )

Agreed.

The home webpage is also the first link in a google search for the product itself.

As a pinball manufacturer which has yet to release their first iteration, most potential buyers are going to click that home page search link to obtain easy to access information on future product, rather than navigating through a facebook feed.

All the pertinent information really needs to be added to the home page to establish top of mind salience and to engage with potential customers at a direct level.

How does the old saying go? "If you have to ask, you can't afford it?"

To get back to the original question: As companies like Spooky Pinball and Dutch Pinball used different strategies the costs of starting up are likely to be way different. Both Spooky and Dutch did the designwork for their first game sort of inhouse, but where Spooky also did build the games inhouse, Dutch sourced the assembly out to a different company. That company also helped in the development, which is great, but there are obviously costs involved. Yet it's most likely still cheaper than setting up a factory all by yourself.

If someone were crazy enough to try, I'd suggest working with someone like Spooky and maybe Homepin someday who has the manufacturing capabilities already sorted out while you figure out if you can design and code a game that anybody wants to play. Sell enough of those to do it until you can bootstrap your own manufacturing facility. Eliminate as many solved problems as you can until you solve the ones that are critical to your business.

I'd also suggest trying to build your own homebrew game from scratch just to get a feel for how many tiny little details are actually needed in order to get a game done. It'll open your eyes and possibly help you consider other ways to your goal.

Spooky had employees who basically worked 'for free', or for the ownership of the company. Ben Heck did hardware and software design, and Charlie and family did the assembly, parts sourcing, etc etc etc. If you had to pay for a new platform design, and software coding, and theme, and voiceover talent, etc etc etc, I seriously doubt you could make a game fully designed for less than $1 million (See JPOP, who outsourced almost everything in his games, such as platform/software, graphic design, etc).

Then you gotta actually manufacture the games.

Jpop isn't a valid reference for anything... except getting people to send money... that there is talent outside the establishment... and that making pinballs is hard

Dutch pinball really is the closet example to what most people would try to do
Spooky is a hobby taken to a business...
Jjp is about trying to be #1 before you could even crawl

Each has lessons to teach others that might try such an endeavor

This much....

breakingbad_skylerwaltmoney (resized).jpg

I heard it costs a dream and a promise.

Protip: if you're going to ask for a business loan, don't say you want to become a "manufacture." That's a verb.

Manufacturing is performed by manufacturers.

And heed the old saw: to spot the expert, pick the guy who says it will take the longest and cost the most.