(Topic ID: 290122)

How many SURVIVED? The state of EMs today...

By Gott72

7 months ago


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    #1 7 months ago

    9 years on from a similar post, I am curious about the population count of EM machines in this new decade.

    Someone said you can cut the surviving machines by half EVERY decade. Thus, a machine made in 1970 with 2000 production run ....

    1980--1000 remain
    1990--500 remain
    2000--250 remain
    2010--125 remain
    2020--67 remain

    Does this sound true? I'd suspect the destruction of EM pinballs has slowed considerably due to collector status and parts availability.

    PINSIDE isn't the be-all-end-all of pinball community, since most pinball peeps don't even know of PINSIDE or come here. So when a pinball machine is said to be held by 20 people, I assume perhaps 10x that amount exist in the world.

    Is there a general way of thinking so?

    Has anyone seen large warehouses of old Ems still shuttered up? Are there caches of old machines somewhere (outside of collectors' hands)??

    And lastly, what do the pros or very connected people think is the future of the EM machine in the next decade/s? Are they more likely to survive and resist destruction or will they be cannabalized more, etc?

    Discuss, please.

    #2 7 months ago

    I don't think the math still holds up. I bought my first em from an arcade in 1983 for 75.00 and it was working, they even opened it to take out quarters. It was almost worthless to them as they got the most quarters from digital pins and arcade games. I think over time people started to recognize they could sell to collectors. I also see a lot more people salvaging games that at one time would have ended up in the trash.

    #3 7 months ago

    I'm sure a few still end up in the landfill every year or turned into coffee tables. For the most part though I think people generally understand they have some value. In the 1980s operators viewed EMs as outdated technology and the home market was fairly small. Now we are at a point where the home market is bigger than games on route. In my small town of under 6000 people I know of a fair amount of games in homes but zero to play at a restaurant or bar.

    #4 7 months ago

    That survival half-life thing was postulated by Steve Young and Dick Bueshel and a couple other prominent people in the hobby in the 80s. It's backed by -zero- evidence. Through the decades since it just keeps getting repeated as gospel. The short answer is that no one can actually answer this question.

    Same as everyone says there's no such thing as operator raids anymore, that's they're all gone. Until the next big one comes up, like the one in europe a couple years ago that yielded a bunch of great condition 50's games, stored nicely throughout the years until the operator passed and his family started to explore what was there.

    #5 7 months ago

    I believe attrition has been very limited over past 15 years or so, but I have no doubt huge swaths of games were destroyed In the late 70s-late 90s.

    They were just taking up space and were basically worthless, as they could not make money on location and there was no home market. In my many years in the hobby I’ve heard many tales from old timers about entire warehouses worth of games getting hauled to the dump. Old timers love to tell stories but I think there’s a kernel of truth there.

    Surely, nobody knows the actual survival rate. I’ve personally parted out games so I guess I’m not helping, but one parts machine can help keep other games running for many years.

    #6 7 months ago

    I also agree that there’s more around than what that formula would render but maybe not a huge percentage more.

    Here’s 3 of my machines using that formula.

    1970 Flip a Card: 1800 made.
    2020 left: 56 machines

    1975 Wizard!: 10,000 made
    2020 left: 470 machines (approx.)

    1962 3 Coins: 1100 made
    2020 left: 20 machines (approx)

    I think there’s definitely more out there in most all cases. I could see those numbers being: 90, 1000 and 45 respectively. Just a guess

    #7 7 months ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    I also agree that there’s more around than what that formula would render but maybe not a huge percentage more.
    Here’s 3 of my machines using that formula.
    1970 Flip a Card: 1800 made.
    2020 left: 56 machines
    1975 Wizard!: 10,000 made
    2020 left: 470 machines (approx.)
    1962 3 Coins: 1100 made
    2020 left: 20 machines (approx)
    I think there’s definitely more out there in most all cases. I could see those numbers being: 90, 1000 and 45 respectively. Just a guess

    Some games got trashed more than others. Games like Wizard look amazing and made tons of money on location. Probably more likely to be held on to by ops, given to nephews etc.

    Ever watch the Tommy movie?

    Almost all the hundred or so games that get trashed in that movie are total dogs. Tons of Chicago coin garbage, very few titles of any real note, even today. Lots of "duplicate" dogs as well. I don't imagine the production paid much if anything for those games, some british op was probably happy they hauled them away.

    #8 7 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Some games got trashed more than others. Games like Wizard look amazing and made tons of money on location. Probably more likely to be held on to by ops, given to nephews etc.
    Ever watch the Tommy movie?
    Almost all the hundred or so games that get trashed in that movie are total dogs. Tons of Chicago coin garbage, very few titles of any real note, even today. Lots of "duplicate" dogs as well. I don't imagine the production paid much if anything for those games, some british op was probably happy they hauled them away.

    Yeah I agree about the Wizard. It was extremely popular because of the movie and Ann Margaret- Roger Daltrey and people would view it more of a collectors item.

    I guess my question would be, how long a period of time after 1980 did people view the average EM as dated or worth nothing?

    I could see plenty of parents in their 40s or 50s taking the old non working Ro-Go to the curb for Otto the garbage man.

    #9 7 months ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    I guess my question would be, how long a period of time after 1980 did people view the average EM as dated or worth nothing?
    .

    Total guess here but I would bet it wasn't until the late 90s and the rise of eBay that anybody thought their old crap like that was worth anything.

    #10 7 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Total guess here but I would bet it wasn't until the late 90s and the rise of eBay that anybody thought their old crap like that was worth anything.

    That makes sense. I never thought about having a pinball machine in my house until I joined eBay in 2003.

    I can thank them for getting me back into it I guess.

    #11 7 months ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    I guess my question would be, how long a period of time after 1980 did people view the average EM as dated or worth nothing?

    I can confirm that in 1993 those EMs were seen as pure garbage. A guy came into work with FLYING CARPET in tow, saying he got it from his neighbor for some tiny amount. Claimed that if no one bought it, the machine would have gone to the curb. He then said those games were being hoofed out into the garbage all the time due to lack of parts, old tech, dated, passe, etc.

    The purge of 70s EM was definitely strong through the 90s.

    By what I read here, it seems the machines became more collectible and salvageable once a community grew that made parts to resuscitate old EMs. Maybe circa 2005.

    #12 7 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I believe attrition has been very limited over past 15 years or so, but I have no doubt huge swaths of games were destroyed In the late 70s-late 90s.
    They were just taking up space and were basically worthless, as they could not make money on location and there was no home market. In my many years in the hobby I’ve heard many tales from old timers about entire warehouses worth of games getting hauled to the dump. Old timers love to tell stories but I think there’s a kernel of truth there.
    Surely, nobody knows the actual survival rate. I’ve personally parted out games so I guess I’m not helping, but one parts machine can help keep other games running for many years.

    As I understand it in conversations with distributors that worked in the industry back in the day, EMs were given $50 trade-in value on a new game and most of those traded in games were thrown away. Trade-in value for solid state games was a bit higher, but the result was the same for the old game--take it to the dump.

    #13 7 months ago
    Quoted from BrianBannon:

    As I understand it in conversations with distributors that worked in the industry back in the day, EMs were given $50 trade-in value on a new game and most of those traded in games were thrown away. Trade-in value for solid state games was a bit higher, but the result was the same for the old game--take it to the dump.

    $50 on a $700 machine? They'd be better as parts machines. I assume that's why so many distributors stacked them up in warehouses.

    #14 7 months ago
    Quoted from Gott72:

    By what I read here, it seems the machines became more collectible and salvageable once a community grew that made parts to resuscitate old EMs. Maybe circa 2005.

    I don't think that's really it. Pinball Resource has been providing parts to hobbyists since the late 1970s. Except for Chicago Coin stuff I never had any trouble getting EM parts, even in the early 2000s.

    #15 7 months ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    That makes sense. I never thought about having a pinball machine in my house until I joined eBay in 2003.
    I can thank them for getting me back into it I guess.

    That and pinball shows.

    #16 7 months ago

    The surviving Gottlieb Ravens were cut by half every 18 months. But it's an outlier.
    raven-pinball_6923 (resized).jpg

    #17 7 months ago

    To the OPs question... I think the answer is 'maybe before.. but it's not a pattern that is perpetual'. The Market through the 70s, 80s, and into the 90s is different than it's been from the 90s, 00s, and the 20 years since.

    Heck, even until the recent run up... EMs were still largely 'if its nice enough, keep it, if its bones, dump it'. And EMs have largely been overlooked in the surge of new money that started getting into the hobby around 2009. It's only with the most recent price run up that EMs even started getting dragged up too. So I think you gotta look at this at least in periods prior to 2010, and post 2010.

    Prior to pinburgh, most new hobby folks could care less about EMs. Pinburgh helped the new folks learn to appreciate the diversity of game styles.

    #18 7 months ago
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    #19 7 months ago

    In 1981, I answered an ad advertising pinball machines for sale in San Diego CA. Turned out to be a warehouse full of EM pinball machines. All were stacked on each other six machines high without the legs. There were probably 300 machines there. They wanted $500-600 for each machine, which was a very high price at the time. I knew they would sell few machines at those prices, so I asked the guy there what would happen to the unsold machines. He said all of the unsold machines would be shipped to South America.

    So, I was thinking how many EM machines (new and used) were shipped to South America, and how many survived...

    #20 7 months ago

    I'm just glad we had a fair share of operators who couldn't bear the thought of trashing their old pins, and continued to hold onto their games in warehouses/sheds/storage bins/barns, you name it; if it was always about the money, we'd have very few EMs left (a fellow hobbyist whose father was a major operator outside Pittsburgh was thrilled to take all those old games (including jukes, bowlers, gun, p&b) straight to the dump without a thought, occurring many times until the business closed.

    #21 7 months ago

    The serial number database (http://www.ipsnd.net) should provide some basis for educated guesses for anyone willing to dig a little. We can't really know how many of a given title exist, but looking at the database should provide some facts to build on. We know the production number of many games for example. And we know how many of those games have had their serial numbers registered.

    If you were to look at the number if games produced vs the number of serial numbers registered for example I wonder if that would show a trend of some kind. If so then in theory you could use that trend to get a rough idea of what percentage of games from a given era are still out there. It probably wouldn't work for a specific title, but it might give you a better idea of how many games from 1964 are still around for example.

    It wouldn't surprise me if someone has already done this or something like it.

    /Mark

    #22 7 months ago

    I do not think the online registries (pinball owners, pinside, etc.) are a good indication of the games that still exist.

    Out of the 9 games currently in my collection, 6 were not registered anywhere and came from owners who wouldn't even know what that is. Go to any pinball show and you’re likely to see a game that you’ve been looking for online but magically someone local brings it. There are some big time contributors on this forum that do not list any of their games on their collection page. I myself had games for the last 10 years and only started participating in online forums in the last couple years.

    If I had to take a guess I would say less than 20% of any title survive. I think the attrition rate is very low at this point unless it’s a game that’s parted out by a collector.

    #23 7 months ago

    My take is the attrition rate was highest in the years after they were removed from
    service. After all they weren't making money but taking up a lot of space. And since
    we're talking about EM's, this was well before the hobby exploded. Maybe a few
    were sold, a few stayed in warehouses but most were junked.

    But those that did survive being trashed by operators probably have a much higher rate
    of survival. We still see the very earliest mechanical pins show up occasionally.
    Have a few here.

    #24 7 months ago

    So if only 5% of a 70s machine would still exist, as speculated above....

    The half-every-decade would bring about 3 1/8% left in existence for a 1970s machine.

    Just as a speculative number.

    ipsnd registers approx. 1-1.5% of machines. Since not all are in there, it is easily 2-3x more than registered. 5%...

    I'm certain some machines have far more, others far less.

    It's an interesting approximation for how many might exist.

    #25 7 months ago

    I know of two collectors who have large storage buildings with mostly EM machines stacked up. One currently doesn’t want to sell any of his duplicates, I’ve tried. The other stores them for different reasons and does sell them when the market may be hot for certain titles and when he can get top dollar for them.

    #26 7 months ago

    How many of each EM pinball title are left is worthy of speculation, but it is mostly guessing as to the actual numbers. A few games, such as Gottlieb Mermaid, have a quite accurate accounting of how many remain (especially among the collectors or institutions that own them), but some of the popular games with high production numbers, such as Spirit of 76, may be a big surprise as to the number still in existence. With over 10,000 produced I guess that over 2000 exist, in use or in storage. Other games that did not have big production numbers and were not popular (did not earn their keep) are very few in number. Prior to the increase in individual collecting and new kinds of public locations, the purpose of a pinball game was as a source of income, not a home use collectable item. It is lucky that a good number of EMs have survived and many that are in poor and unloved condition are being restored and enjoyed. Ebay, Craigslist, Facebook, Pinside, Mr. Pinball, etc are continual sources of amazement and amusement as to what shows up every day.

    #27 7 months ago
    Quoted from Dono:

    I'm just glad we had a fair share of operators who couldn't bear the thought of trashing their old pins, and continued to hold onto their games in warehouses/sheds/storage bins/barns, you name it; if it was always about the money, we'd have very few EMs left (a fellow hobbyist whose father was a major operator outside Pittsburgh was thrilled to take all those old games (including jukes, bowlers, gun, p&b) straight to the dump without a thought, occurring many times until the business closed.

    Better than that they end up on the street competing for his money?

    That’s one of the rationales I’ve heard the old timers say.

    #28 7 months ago

    Back in the day, the operator I worked for bought between 5 and 20 new pins a week and these were quickly set up, tested and swapped on site for the EMs.

    The EMs coming back would have a few motors and reels chopped out and the rest went to the tip. This went on for over a year until we all realised it was a waste of time and space pulling ANY parts from the EMs and, in the end, they were just taken straight to the tip from site when being replaced.

    We probably dumped over 300~500 machines in the few years I was there and I know they kept that up after I left. Sad but true. Most of the other operators in our city were doing the same.

    #29 7 months ago
    Quoted from Gotemwill:

    There are some big time contributors on this forum that do not list any of their games on their collection page.

    And it took me a few months to figure out why. I felt bad to keep turning down offers which eventually turned into a weekly thing. Closing in on 60 games so odds are good someone wants something. Never had anything listed so can’t feel THAT bad but still.

    #30 7 months ago
    Quoted from EJS:

    And it took me a few months to figure out why. I felt bad to keep turning down offers which eventually turned into a weekly thing. Closing in on 60 games so odds are good someone wants something. Never had anything listed so can’t feel THAT bad but still.

    The first time someone tried to use my collection against me in a pinside discussion I decided listing my constantly changing lineup was pointless.

    #31 7 months ago
    Quoted from dyopp21:

    The surviving Gottlieb Ravens were cut by half every 18 months. But it's an outlier

    doubt it ....you always see examples of this machine for sale on craigs list and face book .....easiest machine to pick up if you want one and almost always for less than a gran.....there are a lot of them still out there

    #32 7 months ago
    Quoted from pins4u:

    Back in the day, the operator I worked for bought between 5 and 20 new pins a week and these were quickly set up, tested and swapped on site for the EMs.
    The EMs coming back would have a few motors and reels chopped out and the rest went to the tip. This went on for over a year until we all realised it was a waste of time and space pulling ANY parts from the EMs and, in the end, they were just taken straight to the tip from site when being replaced.
    We probably dumped over 300~500 machines in the few years I was there and I know they kept that up after I left. Sad but true. Most of the other operators in our city were doing the same.

    They were meant as money making and there was no demand in the home market yet. Such a shame.

    #33 7 months ago
    Quoted from chad:

    They were meant as money making and there was no demand in the home market yet. Such a shame.

    It's not just that, the operator wouldn't just give the games away to would-be hobbyists as potential this unwanted equipment could come back to haunt him in the form of competition. The easiest and most sensical thing to do was to just trash them. Operators also had a decided interest in there NOT being a "home market" for pins as he wants people to go to his locations to play pinball, not sit around at home doing it.

    Games still did end up in homes, I'd be most curious in finding out how that used to happen back in the day. I bought a Gottlieb "NOW" from an old man who got the game from a friend of his who owed him a favor or something. The guy was an operator and just showed up at his house one day with the game and put it in the living room.

    #34 7 months ago

    A good percentage of the EMs that I’ve bought have had all of the coin door parts stripped to keep them from being operated again easily

    #35 7 months ago

    It's always a fun surprise when you open one up and see the coin mechs/coin box still in place. Not necessarily needed for playing at home but a welcome bonus.

    #36 7 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Games still did end up in homes, I'd be most curious in finding out how that used to happen back in the day.

    I don't remember complete details, but my mom went to a warehouse in downtown Los Angeles in the late 1970s where someone (presumably an operator) had many EMs for sale. My recollection from her description was that it was a warehouse full of EMs. She and the friend with whom she went both bought an EM for their husbands for father's day.

    Stories from owners of machines during the 1960s that I have stumbled across are that they were bought directly from bars and bowling alleys.

    #37 7 months ago

    I’m guessing that few have heard the California bulldozer dump story? Lots of machines perished from what I’m told. 1/2 every decade for games pre 85 might be right. 5-10% works as well. Whatever the formula it took some time for people to realize that games were becoming more valuable in whatever shape. Bargains galore 20 plus years ago. Not the case as much today. Great thread!

    #38 7 months ago
    Quoted from Mikala:

    I know of two collectors who have large storage buildings with mostly EM machines stacked up. One currently doesn’t want to sell any of his duplicates, I’ve tried. The other stores them for different reasons and does sell them when the market may be hot for certain titles and when he can get top dollar for them.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Better than that they end up on the street competing for his money?
    That’s one of the rationales I’ve heard the old timers say.

    Good point, yep for sure.

    #39 7 months ago

    Also keep in mind all the old em's and arcade games we lost to weather related events. The Jersey Shore during the hurrricane and then a fire seen not only a whole arcade go up in smoke but also a Beautiful old carosel ,these machines are irraplaceable.

    #40 7 months ago

    My first game was a Gottlieb OUT OF SIGHT
    The history was, the guy I bought it from, said his uncle had an arcade when he closed it he gave a game to each of his kids and nephews.
    I don't know what happened to the rest of them. But I got a working game that need cleaning and a ring kit.

    A freind who I flew R/C airplanes with said he had an old wood rail pinball in his basement not used for many years .
    I am sure it needed to be repaired or at least shopped.

    I wonder how many games are out there in the corner of a basement or garage.

    #41 7 months ago
    Quoted from bob_e:

    I wonder how many games are out there in the corner of a basement or garage.

    I bet the random single game in the basement or garage is probably higher than we think.

    Pulled an OXO out of an about-to-be-demolished garage. The owner got it for his birthday back in the 70s. Said it hadn’t worked in some 20 years but the bg was perfect!

    Also rescued an Aloha from another garage as a son was cleaning out his dads old stuff. BG was 99% gone on that one.

    #42 7 months ago
    Quoted from steviechs:

    I bet the random single game in the basement or garage is probably higher than we think.
    Pulled an OXO out of an about-to-be-demolished garage. The owner got it for his birthday back in the 70s. Said it hadn’t worked in some 20 years but the bg was perfect!
    Also rescued an Aloha from another garage as a son was cleaning out his dads old stuff. BG was 99% gone on that one.

    the backglass survived winters in a Michigan garage amazing.

    There are a lot people who have games that are not on Pinside or other pinball forums.

    More Examples: My neighbor has a Flash that will need work and its at his other house.
    My former employer has a Last Action Hero. I ordered a ring kit for him and told him to replace the 3 AA batteries.

    #43 7 months ago

    I stopped at Colonial Amusements in Greensboro around 1998 looking for my first machine. He showed many in the small warehouse for sale. Sensing my budget he walked me out back.
    "Or we have these" with a smirk or tense smile.
    Under the rear shelter was probably 20 EMs. They looked in really nice shape.
    The vibe I picked up from him was they were outdated, parts hard to find.
    No longer in demand ( these had been recently jerked out of locations with nowhere to put them).
    Told me 200 each. I didn't know squat about an EM.
    Don't know what became of them.

    #44 7 months ago
    Quoted from chad:

    [quoted image]

    Hardbody is a GREAT game that sold terrible. Nobody wanted it. Sales were SO BAD they made another ugly backglass where everyone draw has clothes on so people didn’t have to see that HULK of a woman. The new tagline was “the same game with less sex”

    Bally was really doing stupid things right before Williams bought them.

    Quoted from EJS:

    And it took me a few months to figure out why. I felt bad to keep turning down offers which eventually turned into a weekly thing. Closing in on 60 games so odds are good someone wants something. Never had anything listed so can’t feel THAT bad but still.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    The first time someone tried to use my collection against me in a pinside discussion I decided listing my constantly changing lineup was pointless.

    Weird, I never get anyone cold-calling for my games!
    Sad, nobody wants my junk... off to the landfill!

    #45 7 months ago
    Quoted from steviechs:

    I bet the random single game in the basement or garage is probably higher than we think.
    Pulled an OXO out of an about-to-be-demolished garage. The owner got it for his birthday back in the 70s. Said it hadn’t worked in some 20 years but the bg was perfect!
    Also rescued an Aloha from another garage as a son was cleaning out his dads old stuff. BG was 99% gone on that one.

    Got a call from a guy in Chicago who was looking to sell a bunch of pins from his father's estate in VA... made an offer based on some pix and after some negotiations bought them. There were seven total games: four woodrails, one 60s EM, and two early SS games. Those games hadn't been played in 20 years +, just sitting in a climate controlled family room collecting dust. I'm sure that scenario will be played out hundreds if not thousands of times over the next several decades; some amazing gems yet to be uncovered.

    #46 7 months ago

    My gut tells me that there are a lot more out there of any title than we think because our counting is biased by what we can count. Namely the numbers that we have on pinside but even with that we know lots keep their collection list private.

    Most of the EM games that I see come up for sale on FB and CL are not from collectors but rather people who have had a single game in their garage or basement for years and are now looking to take advantage of the inflated pinball pricing. And everyday I see new games for sale.

    I always get excited when a new person comes on pinside looking for tech help with an EM and I think oh good there's another one we didnt know about.

    #47 7 months ago
    Quoted from Dono:

    Got a call from a guy in Chicago who was looking to sell a bunch of pins from his father's estate in VA... made an offer based on some pix and after some negotiations bought them. There were seven total games: four woodrails, one 60s EM, and two early SS games. Those games hadn't been played in 20 years +, just sitting in a climate controlled family room collecting dust. I'm sure that scenario will be played out hundreds if not thousands of times over the next several decades; some amazing gems yet to be uncovered.

    I just picked one up just like that. A 62 Williams 3 Coins that sat in a farmers Indiana basement for over 30 years without anyone touching it.

    He is a licensed electrician and said when he tried to turn it on again some 25 years ago, it wouldn’t power up so he just lost interest.

    It was in surprisingly good shape under the playfield and manually tripping the lock relay got it going again. I think this is rare because in my business I’ve probably been in over 1500 basements in a pinball friendly town and I’ve only had 1 customer who had an EM in their house, a Williams Strat-o-Flite.

    #48 7 months ago

    Back in 1984, I answered my mother's question of "What do you want for Christmas this year?"
    She didn't enjoy my answer of "a pinball machine!" but 2 days later, she took me to her classmate's coin-op warehouse. He was the big OP in the region and he walked me into a storage area of about 200 EMs. "Take your pick, anything, $200 each."

    He seemed like he truly cared less, and I ended-up with a WMS '77 Big Deal. No charge for the delivery and at the time, 2 flights of steps up with 90-degree turns in a side-by-side!

    In '84 with a pinball in your pad, you were a hit with all the chicks that came over to party. I felt like Hefner, LOL.

    #49 7 months ago
    Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

    Weird, I never get anyone cold-calling for my games!
    Sad, nobody wants my junk... off to the landfill!

    1. I'd take a few of those off your hands including Hardbody.
    2. I don't think I've ever see a longer wishlist!

    #50 7 months ago
    Quoted from twoplays25c:

    Back in 1984, I answered my mother's question of "What do you want for Christmas this year?"
    She didn't enjoy my answer of "a pinball machine!" but 2 days later, she took me to her classmate's coin-op warehouse. He was the big OP in the region and he walked me into a storage area of about 200 EMs. "Take your pick, anything, $200 each."
    He seemed like he truly cared less, and I ended-up with a WMS '77 Big Deal. No charge for the delivery and at the time, 2 flights of steps up with 90-degree turns in a side-by-side!
    In '84 with a pinball in your pad, you were a hit with all the chicks that came over to party. I felt like Hefner, LOL.

    Love stories like this. Missed out on that era!

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