How do YOU properly "Nastify", or modify your your pin-decks to be more...

(Topic ID: 90892)

How do YOU properly "Nastify", or modify your your pin-decks to be more...


By Caucasian2Step

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 55 posts
  • 27 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by MeNaCeFiRe
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago

Interesting, balanced, better?

I am bringing this in from another post to deal with this issue more directly. Granted, every copy of every game (even the same game) will play differently. But I'd like to know what pinsiders do to make their games more challenging as well as which specific games and examples of those nastifications they would be willing to share with the community. Some are simple, some are complex. Some are software and some are physical hardware modifications that make a difference in gameplay.

For example: Jon Replogle (PAPA) took a game that has a notorious reputation for an exploit (Mousin' around) and put hard rubber bumpers on either side of the ramp to make the entrance not much wider than the ball. In a simple solution, he balanced out the game in a brilliant and effective way. Are you really gonna go for that shot when you gots real $$$ on the line?

Another Example: Jim Belsito removed the lane change from Eight Ball Champ and kept the game from boosting Bonus X through the roof. This makes the rest of the game more worthwhile shooting for and now all of those standups behind the drop targets are worth more points. I am not exactly sure how this one works as I have not personally witnessed it, but it great players like Jim take a game and make it a "player". I'm interested!

My own Examples:
I have modified my Laser Cue to not have the guide under the lower right hand flipper and it makes a HUGE difference in ball times.
My Creature From the Black Lagoon does not rotate the snackbar standups and you can't light a standup from the center hole. This simple software option makes the game much more dangerous.

Some of the more straightforward adjustment that can be done are often not. I hear many players that write off games as "too easy" without doing the work of making you have to work for the game.

Standard issue adjustments:
Remove outlane posts/rubbers
Steepen (or even "gasp" lower) the angle of the PF
Fresh Wax
Fresh rubber sets
New flipper rubbers/ Sooper-Bands
Whisper-Tilt (tm) plumb-bob altitude modification
Adjusting software options/rules to mank-nasty difficulty.

Papa style adjustments:
Lightning flippers (most notably on WCS '94 and LotR)
Big Ol' yella rubber baby buggy bumpers on orbit/lane/ramp entrances

Sometimes even Cliffy hole/saucer protectors make a difference in a shot.

This post was taken from another string that I put a bunch of this info in before. But I believe that this info is valid and good to share with the rest of the community. Any ideas/mods should be posted here. Link games as needed. Pics/ movies are greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

C2S

#2 4 years ago

Removing the rubber rings from outlane posts does wonders for your frustration levels as well...

#3 4 years ago

Removing the rubber from the flipper bats will raise your frustration level even more.

#4 4 years ago

I have often thought about removing the big rubber bumper on the center, "move your car" lane on CFTBL. It often saves SDTM drains if I don't make the shot with precision. I did not realize that the snackbar standup rotation was sw adjustable. I will have to check it out. I also try to avoid the skill shots on CFTBL as they are way too easy to make, especially the "F" objective. Great thread idea, btw.

#5 4 years ago

I'm not a great player so I don't tend to make adjustments to make the game harder. But I do like to make adjustments that encourage me to play more of the game and get more out of it.

E.g., Dr Dude: set the Mix Master to require far more hits to spot Elements of Coolness. This eliminates the 'ramp all day' strategy and forces you to play the game properly.

One other thing I like to do is set the drop targets to have memory between balls. This means I actually shoot for them because I am more likely to see the rewards (but it is also not a safe shot). Without target memory they're not worth shooting for.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

I have often thought about removing the big rubber bumper on the center, "move your car" lane on CFTBL. It often saves SDTM drains if I don't make the shot with precision. I did not realize that the snackbar standup rotation was sw adjustable. I will have to check it out. I also try to avoid the skill shots on CFTBL as they are way too easy to make, especially the "F" objective. Great thread idea, btw.

that's how many tournament CFTBL's are setup.

#7 4 years ago

Yeah, The Creature is designed for you to go for the "easier" of the F-I-L-M letters out of order so you miss out on your F-I-L-M bonus. At the same time if you Complete F and go straight for M, you get a skill shot reflex bonus. I end up playing the right ramp/ orbit strategy quite a bit and beat many players who methodically go for F-I-L-M and struggle with the process.

Taking notes from Master B here: http://pinball.org/rules/creaturefromtheblacklagoon-notes.txt

My Creech has large yellow bumpers which narrow shots and make incomplete ones nudge off them on the way down starting the side to side motion of death. Backhanding the right ramp is the safest/ best/ most worthwhile way to make every shot from the left flipper worthwhile.

12
#8 4 years ago

I suck so bad at pins fellas. This thread makes me even sadder that you guys have to intentionally make them harder for yourselves.

#9 4 years ago

There have been other threads about this exact topic. And like this one, people don't seem to post very much on here. Why? I'm interested in this topic too.

TZ. Left ramp multi-ball start disabled. 7 degree pitch. Only 1 EB per game based on score. Camera increased to 15 Robot ramps. Slot and Piano memory.

#10 4 years ago

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet, as it's almost too painfully obvious, but remove the center post (on games that have it.)

#11 4 years ago

When playing competitively, turn on tournament settings, turn off extra balls.

For Fish Tales, I like the one-step-harder than standard ball lock setup - this involves having the drop target up in front of the Casters Club by default each time a game is started.

#12 4 years ago

My JM came with an aftermarket spinner that is unbalanced and will only spin four or five times from a solid hit. Makes Spinner Millions still worth going for, but no longer the main focus of the game.

#13 4 years ago

seen mention of widening outlanes narrowing inlanes on machines adjustable there, well.. opposite that for blackrose having notoriously mean side drains. I hadnt done it but I'd think dropping some power to flippers could make some games a bit tougher to play by requiring more accurate shooting, "the flippers are weak deal with it".
steeper pf can do more SDTM, less sometimes more sideplay and side draining, more waiting frustrations on a slower ball can mess with your pace. experiment with both weakened flippers and lower pf angle?

unintentional but worked out to make a game tougher here, really slicked up pf (waxed then armorall tire gelled) got the ball laddering up between the slingshots and straight into the side drains was easy and a pretty good joykiller. doesnt happen as often if the pf angle is steep enough the slings cant ladder it up and out. on the same note if slingshots have the power to throw the ball up far enough to always be safe, maybe play with some resistors to get them laddering up 1/2 to 3/4 inch side to side.. say hello to the outlane?

#14 4 years ago

Lightning flippers on SOF. Makes the lock show WAY more difficult and reduces ball times as well.

#15 4 years ago

As soon as I get a new machine I smash the glass with my forehead, then regurgitate my lunch onto the playfield.

#16 4 years ago

Easy ones that will make your pin much more interesting

No extra balls
No ball save
No rubbers on outlanes
Wide open outlanes

I try to get my pins to average 1min per ball.

#17 4 years ago

Aztec is a pretty spinner-heavy game, so I played with the switch so it gives about 15,000/hit instead of a dialed spinner that's 30-40,000. Now you can do spinner or right lane strategy fairly evenly.

#18 4 years ago

Agree

Quoted from Pinballrus:Easy ones that will make your pin much more interesting
No extra balls
No ball save
No rubbers on outlanes
Wide open outlanes
I try to get my pins to average 1min per ball.

Agreed, sometimes keeping things short is for the best. Not always appreciated on longer playing games with wizard (or multiple wizard) modes, but it does keep things focused and on point. Every action requires risk assesement and skill!

#19 4 years ago

Some good ideas in here. I like removing the outlane rubbers, no ball save, and no ebs.

As for me, on a relatively easy game like BDK, I put lighting flippers in. Improved the game a ton IMO.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Lightning flippers on SOF. Makes the lock show WAY more difficult and reduces ball times as well.

I might try this. the Lock shot is already one of the hardest in the game.

#21 4 years ago

I am planning to do this to my WCS '94 and my LotR. I haven't been able to score a Dr. Who or a Dracula, sooo... why not?

#22 4 years ago

I think the single easiest way to make games very hard is to remove the rubber at the top of the outlane/inlane posts. When the ball heads for bare metal, you have much less time to react and it is MUCH harder to make an outlane-save.

TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
#24 4 years ago

bump for future ref

#25 4 years ago

I love making the slings as sensitive as I possibly can. I love the action, but I'm not a glutton for punishment so I also make the outlanes tighter.

#26 4 years ago

If you really want to nasty a game up set the pitch at 5 degrees so that it's impossible to trap the ball and put the slings on a hair trigger

#27 4 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Isn't this rough on the finish for the ball?

I suppose it may wear them a bit faster. I see balls at the end of some tournaments and they can take quite a beating. (The ones in the game that is.)

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

If you really want to nasty a game up set the pitch at 5 degrees so that it's impossible to trap the ball and put the slings on a hair trigger

I can hear myself cursing at the game already. Deliciously sadistic!

#29 4 years ago

I am taking a bit of time to fine tune my tilts. Some games like Flip Flop with the reversed inlane/outlane layout and Flash Gordon, really require a bit of nudging skills to get the game to play as it should. I think I may do this with my Stars as well. Any suggestions for tuning other than gameplay are appreciated.

1 week later
#30 4 years ago

Up until this past weekend, I've kept my Attack from Mars set relatively default. It's gotten too easy, and I've been meaning to make some adjustments to make ruling the universe a once-in-a-while thing again. Here's what I did:

* Replaced flipper rubber with Superbands (not necessarily harder, but it's taking a while to adjust my aim)
* Opened outlanes all the way
* Turned off all extra balls
* Made it harder to open the ship (no neighborhood shots)
* Made it harder to start the first multiball (6 shots instead of 4)

I definitely succeeded in my goal, because I have yet to rule the universe on these settings. On the plus side, now I can play a game or two when taking a break from work.

#31 4 years ago

Just put in overly bright leds for the GI and flashers.

#32 4 years ago

Ouch... Especially if flashers are on top of the slings (Steeeerrrrrrnnn!). I can feel my retinas gettin' toasty already!

#33 4 years ago

All of this sounds like hell and torture. I like making my games easier and then slowly move it back to factory, somewhat. Making it too hard means I won't play it, well I lie, it's still pinball, just not play it as much.

#34 4 years ago

If you are interested in having fun. Great! By all means have fun. I see pinball as a personal development tool and as such, am looking for a challenge. I still have fun, but I still love the challenge and rocking a game that will make all the pin-ladies swoon!

#35 4 years ago

Clear coat your PFs and put brand new, shiny balls in them....watch the speed climb immensely and so does the difficulty

#36 4 years ago

I put small (think 4th flipper on TAF) on my FT. You thought lightning flips were tough...

#37 4 years ago

The one on the upper right???

#38 4 years ago

Another tip I heard from Dan Gutchess at the Pre-IFPA tourneys here in Denver. His games were faster than I ever remembered and I asked him what he did. He told me that he just Novus 2'd the playfields.

No wax.

He didn't recommend doing this with games that weren't diamond \ clear coated, but DAY-UMMM... The 1up tables (both at the LoDo and Colfax locations) were blazing!

#39 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

Another tip I heard from Dan Gutchess at the Pre-IFPA tourneys here in Denver. His games were faster than I ever remembered and I asked him what he did. He told me that he just Novus 2'd the playfields.
No wax.
He didn't recommend doing this with games that weren't diamond \ clear coated, but DAY-UMMM... The 1up tables (both at the LoDo and Colfax locations) were blazing!

Thanks for the tip/reminder. I haven't Novus 2'd my (nicely clearcoated) AFM playfield in a while. I just did it, and it's already making a huge difference.

Still haven't ruled the universe since turning off EBs and opening the outlanes, but I've gotten pretty close and I think I've seen some improvement in my playing. This speed increase is probably going to be a bit of a setback toward the RTU.

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from Don1:

I love making the slings as sensitive as I possibly can.

I'm a big fan of this too. I don't think it necessarily makes the game harder, as I have more trouble handling unexpected dead bounces off of "friendly" slings. I had my Metallica sling switches gapped so tight that the right one would fire when a ball dropped into the inlane. Had to dial it back a notch from the edge of insanity.

#41 4 years ago

Here's a similar string:

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-can-i-properly-papa-ize-my-games

If anyone else has similar strings, I'd love to check them out.

#42 4 years ago

From MHS (the MAN HIM SELF) with the last string:

"As a general rule, PAPA tilts in a-bank should be set to ideally give a player one good nudge, but there's slightly more to it than that. If a game design forces a player into shooting uncontrollable shots to progress, like Whirlwind, the tilt will ideally be looser than, say, spiderman, where every shot returns safely to a flipper. On spiderman, the tilt will be tighter, but even it shouldn't randomly tilt. The phantom tilts come into play when the tilt wasn't set correctly to begin with or players don't wait for it to settle between balls.

Also, nothing should be openly broken. If the right slingshot on Monster Bash isn't working, tell a tech and they will fix it for you. Some games are set steeper than others, some games are set shallower than others. Inducing vertical or lateral motion through pitch can lead to shorter or longer ball times depending on the game (making something steeper can sometimes make it easier). In general, just leave it at the factory setting and you will always be close.

As someone else mentioned above, the specific tournament has a lot to do with how games are set. At Pinburgh, games are set significantly easier than a-bank level (probably closer to C) because people only get one chance to play the game and learn the angles. The problems with long ball times typically arise when players are allowed to play the same game 20 straight times and learn every rebound. So, the difficulty of the game is determined by the qualifying structure just as much as the people who will be playing it.

Slingshot sensitivity is big. They are typically very tight in a-bank and get looser as the games move down the ladder in divisions.

_____

Sure, yeah. There are wax patterns on games. Anyone who has been into bowling knows how the oil conditions affect lanes. Pinball is the same way. Certain games will get wax or cleaned in certain areas to attempt to induce a ball toward one area of the playfield over another. This is all totally game dependent, so it's not easy to really give a rule of thumb, but I do pay attention to which areas of a playfield I will leave dirty or clean relentlessly for whatever reason.

With regard to rubbers, the fact they are new is what makes the most difference. We buy rubbers from lots of different sources and use them accordingly. Categorizing rubbers by color is dangerous because while that benchmark is generally correct, it can be incorrect depending on the specific run of rubber or supplier. Just pay attention to what they're playing like, dorometer, etc, and above anything else just make sure they're not sun bleached, old, or rotting. Also, the type of flipper rubbers makes a big difference. PAPA 14 used the wrong kinds in several situations, and it was an issue for several players. Mistake. Learn. Improve. etc.

___

Speaking of mistakes, a recent one worth mentioning is old rubbers. Someone on here already mentioned two games at PAPA 15 that didn't have new ones. They are correct that those should be fresh. If you're running an event, just because the part isn't physically cracked or broken doesn't mean it doesn't need replaced, especially with regard to flippers. Once again, mistake, learn improve etc...

___

No real need to remove the posts on Shadow or congo entirely in any division. Even in qualifying those games are reasonable with regard to time, so what's the point? I know people can mention specific examples in tournaments where obscene adjustments have been made to bastardize games, and I'm no saint with regard to those mistakes, but just bastardizing a game for the sake of making it play as short as possible is boring and doesn't help pinball. If we were all going to get together for a giant plunge-off, we could just remove all the flippers on every game and make everything crazy hard. But watching house balls doesn't make good video and won't help bring new people into the competitive game.

In the vast majority of cases, if your game has the outlanes at the widest possible (still in the game), the slingshots tight, and the tilt clean and one-solid nudge equals a double-danger, you're in the ball park of a-div setup. The fat rubber posts are game-specific, as-is pulling posts.

Also, something worth mentioning is a game with tight slings and outlanes all the way in can still play harder and faster than a game with easy feeds, loose slings, and outlanes pulled. Players tend to get pissed when posts are gone or obvious adjustments have been made to thwart the player because those adjustments are in-their-face obvious. I get less e-mails when I leave posts in but make other adjustments (slings) as tight as possible and get the same result for the tournament. There's often ways to get the desired result without people even noticing...

___

Shakers should always be disabled, and if they're not, it's a mistake. We also "try" to disable non-essential moving parts like the car in INDY500 because it may shake the machine and cause a tilt. This is an ongoing process though, and some stuff isn't converted yet..

___

DarthXaos said:
Even on a game like Earthshaker where it's an inherent feature of the game design?

Yes. Earthshaker plays the same from a competitive perspective with or without the shaker motor. With the shaker, however, it is a liability in a number of respects (as a distraction to others competing nearby and because the continual vibration can lead to an increase in tech calls among other considerations). If someone wants to argue that having your hands shake while playing is some kind of "challenge" the game presents, I understand that opinion, but from my experience in running events, eliminating the shaker is a greater benefit to the tournament as a whole than keeping it.

I'm reading between the lines of your post that you disagree, which brings up a worthwhile point. My opinions are not the be-all and end-all of how to run tournaments. The thread was simply discussing how things are done at PAPA. There are a number of people around the country fully capable of running high quality events, and we frequently debate these types of decisions and learn from one another's experiences. I have personally learned a great deal from others and hope to continue doing so. The reason I'm answering these questions is because I believe exchanging ideas leads to improvement, both on my end and hopefully in the cases of other tournament directors. If anyone with whom I don't normally converse disagrees with any of my points above, please do so publicly or message me privately to take up the conversation. The only goal with these types of discussions is to share ideas and make competitive pinball better.

#43 4 years ago

On games without magnets (or with?), install a powerball. They're like $50 though, so a multiball game would get pricey fast...

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from appeac:

On games without magnets (or with?), install a powerball. They're like $50 though, so a multiball game would get pricey fast...

This can also result in an *insane* amount of damage to plastics and other on-playfield stuff without too much time passing. I get the idea, and it's a good one...if you don't care about what damage you might do.

#45 4 years ago

On my personal TSPP, the garage door really doesn't work, and I haven't bothered fixing it at all. The switch for hitting the door still registers most of the time, yes, but it doesn't necessarily (*maybe* one time in 20?) open up near enough for the ball to pass through to award the Mystery Award or send the ball to the upper playfield. This greatly, *greatly* affects the way the game is played, as you can't afford to just basically ignore the third flipper ramp shot any more...you've *got to* hit that shot in order to make it up to the Living Room to start modes, lock balls for multiball, get super jackpots, etc.

The one caveat to my pseudo-mod (read: kind of lazy about fixing it, but enjoying the resulting change by not doing it) is that the garage door will sometimes slightly open, enough for the ball to get behind it from the Quik-E-Mart shot. This can be a pain, but it's part of the challenge, too.

I've found that playing this way really, *really* makes multiball special, and when I achieve it, I'm feeling pretty good about myself. It also makes playing modes, when you can start them, much different, since the clock is that much more difficult to reset/add time onto.

Meh. I'm not married to the mod, but it kind of fascinates me, so I leave it there. No one plays it but me, so who cares?

#46 4 years ago

That's an interesting way to look at tspp. I ended up having the issue of the door not opening all the way for a while and when I changed the coil to the slightly higher powered one, the door opened as it should. I wonder if there is a S/W option to disable the garage door. I guess I could just unsolder the solenoid to the door as well.

I'm gonna have to look into this one. I will say that my TSPP is nasty enough without this mod though...

#47 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

That's an interesting way to look at tspp. I ended up having the issue of the door not opening all the way for a while and when I changed the coil to the slightly higher powered one, the door opened as it should. I wonder if there is a S/W option to disable the garage door. I guess I could just unsolder the solenoid to the door as well.
I'm gonna have to look into this one. I will say that my TSPP is nasty enough without this mod though...

To be completely fair: mine doesn't play ultra-nasty or anything. In fact, it's probably time for me to do a complete teardown of the playfields and really, honestly shop the thing. I'd probably be less forgiving of my "mod" if it played like an absolute beast.

Another mod that I just thought of that I've never bothered to fix: the leftmost "large post" in the pop bumper entry area (there are three) is missing on my machine, and I've never bothered to replace it. It does make it so that the standup in the bumper area gets hit quite a bit more than I recall it being hit on other machines that I've played.

Can you tell that I bought a routed TSPP?

#48 4 years ago

[Not sure the best place to put this, so here it is.]

Since I opened the outlanes, toughened the software (no EBs, hard MB start, etc.), Novus'd the PF, and added Superbands, I've been playing the snot out of my Attack from Mars.

3 or 4 times before today, I got 5 out of 6 RTU goals done.

Well, today, I had everything done except Attack Mars at the end of ball 1. I started ball 2 with the shield down and at the start of the last country before Mars. I had Martian Attack lit, 1 lock complete, and only 2/12 of my TA progress. So I went straight for Martian Attack to try to get a quick 2-ball and ball save to defend the last country. I got 3 out of 4 jumping martians and ran out of time, but didn't drain. Because the ball was cradled on the left flipper, I worked on the right ramp and orbit. I had 2 of each and never got control back for a lock shot and drained. On to ball 3. Even worse than ball 2. I didn't even save the last country. Fun?

Keep in mind that before I nastified the game, I've RTU'd twice in the same game, and maybe even three times. Not that impressive, because of the extra balls it gives out by default (Video Mode, 10 lower lane completions, 50 lower lane completions, 2 countries, Strobe Multiball, even on Stroke of Luck occasionally).

I know that I'll be able to do it at some point with my game set up the way it currently is. Anybody want to tell me all about how they RTU'd on 1 ball on a tough-to-brutal AFM and give me some encouragement? This thing is killing me!

#49 4 years ago

Ball control techniques will save the day (and the universe) on AFM.

When the IFPA worlds was in Denver about a month ago I got to play with a great deal of European players and noticed a few different techniques that I had seen, but not used as often as the American players. I particularly noticed tip passes and quite a bit more patience around the flippers when the ball was moving quickly. Bounce (multiple) passes and slight nudges to get the ball from one side to the next were used with great effectiveness.

Slap saves and more dangerous techniques that were used by American players were used by Euro players, but much more judiciously, even when the tilt sensitivity was not that tempermental. Overall the decision seemed to be to use less violent and more patient techniques to let the ball come to them and their control.

Now go gits that Rule the Universe!

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

Bounce (multiple) passes and slight nudges to get the ball from one side to the next were used with great effectiveness.

I have noticed this in the videos I've been watching lately. I'm finding that it takes real consideration to learn these techniques because it takes a while to build the intuition as to whether or not a bounce pass is going to be effective or not in the moment. Because I think that is what it takes — an intuition. My brain thinks it isn't going to work but then it does, especially if you add some nudging.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
€ 159.00
Cabinet - Toppers
FlipperLED
$ 137.00
$ 40.00
$ 175.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
8,400 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Crosby, MN
$ 229.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 58.00
From: $ 99.99
Cabinet - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 369.95
Boards
PinSound
$ 22.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
ModFather Pinball Mods
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
4,200
Machine - For Sale
Portland, OR
$ 35.00
Electronics
Ewe22 Security PIC Chips
$ 16.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Decals
Bright Lights Pinball
$ 17.50
Playfield - Plastics
Bright Lights Pinball
$ 7.65
Cabinet Parts
Third Coast Pinball
$ 15.50
Lighting - Led
Lermods
$ 29.99
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 159.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 40.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
$ 235.00
Boards
RS Technologies
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside