Jacks whole reason for starting a pinball company was to produce no compromise product. I dont see him ever producing a pro line unless his mission changed.

Probably impossible since you'd have to lose the LCD and computer. Not to mention all the effort that goes into creating the digital assets, would go to waste on Pros, and a separate development on Pro software.

Hence why Stern is dug in with dmd.

Probably because he was losing money at that price point...

Like it or not the Pro, Premium, LE model has been a great idea for Stern. JJP needs to do something similar if they want to sell more games. It looks like they already are; starting with using decals on the regular WOZ.

Not really they kept the price the same, just raised profit.

Yep. And the best part is that Jack is just as guilty as perpetuating the OMG BUY NOW mentality that supposedly they were solving by not making pins with different playfield features, precisely BECAUSE they keep "Jack"ing up the price. It made sense that LE owners would get some extra cosmetic freebies, but at the point it turned into "Oh you're saving 500 bucks too" or what is is now... "Oh, you're saving 1500 bucks. And you still get the cosmetics." then the whole argument of them NOT doing the Pro/Prem/LE model went *completely out the window*. Nobody in their right mind wants to pay 1500 bucks more than the LE buyers, and get LESS on their game to boot, even if it's just cosmetics.

Their business model is just as much crap as Stern's, in it's own way. If the trend holds true, by the time Hobbit LE owners get all their games, Hobbit standards really *will* be 10k after shipping.

More than likely we haven't seen Stern introduce an LCD is not because of the total cost of hardware but more because of the time and cost of R&D on a new system as well as the cost to complete each project (Video production etc.). As long as they can get away with it, it is cheaper in the long run to stick with existing technology.

Jack had to start from scratch so a Single Board Computer (PC based to some) and an off the shelf commercial LCD made sense in any trade off to increased cost.

I don't see JJP ever dropping from their Linux based computer/LCD setup. They have invested too much time/money R&D to try to release something else with a new board set. Now if they wanted to use Ben Heck's board, there is a possibility there, but I just don't see it happening.

I agree they need a pro line up, not all if us can afford $8K for a pinball machine. I'm sure there are ways for them to do this and could open up a market to us lower end buyers.

Why do you guys think the Linux computer+LCD are the deal breakers for a pro model? LCDs are a dime a dozen at that size and linux motherboards come as cheap as $15.... not that it is what JJP is using but prices for technology continue to drop every month.

jjp needs to produce a machine that can compete with stern in the pro price point.

jjp needs to make at least 2 machines a year to be even remotely competitive with stern

jjp needs to get games out the door faster, much faster

jjp needs to get online game play to really have an edge and get new customers into this hobby, 2014 and this STILL hasn't been done by anyone is almost embarrassing.

jjp needs to build SOME machines with adults in mind as well. we all love family friendly themes but not always

jjp needs to do less announcing and much more producing

Online game play is going to be a challenge, a couple of ways to do it fairly are to install a webcam in the back box so the opposing player can see the play field and that you are not cheating

Other option is for a scannable item in the middle of the glass that is picked up by a scanner in the middle of the play field, you will still need sensors to see where the out lane posts are located, you will also need a tilt plumb bob with detectable settings,

The only real thing that has changed, is that JJP has raised the price $2500.

The cost to produce the game has become less.

Less? The longer you manufacturer a product, the more efficient it becomes to produce it.

Your borrowing rate is lower because you have been in business longer. You become better at correctly judging your parts inventory. Suppliers give you better pricing because they see you succeeding and want your future business. Your workforce becomes better trained. You have corrected errors that cost money in service calls.

It would be nice if they could, but JJP does not have to compete with Stern's market segment.

Just like Ferrari does not have to compete with Ford's Mustang.

However, the time may come when JJP's production can keep up with, or surpass demand for a $8000 table. At that point, it could make good business sense to provide a secondary line of games that feed a different market (ie Pro Model at an operator acceptable price point).

Don't forget the initial costs of designing a new hardware and software platform. Games after WOZ will have much lower costs in that department for years now.

I say you keep the LCD / Linux platform. Make it a standard body. Obvisouly there will be less toys. Still offer complete code. Have a model just for the $5k market and then still have the full wide body feature loaded games.

A few inches of glass and wood is probably $10 at the wholesale level.

All the real money in a game is the programming and electronics.

Just out of curiosity, how much do people think these two components cost at wholesale? Probably not much over a hundred bucks right?

i think of it like watches...rolex watches are the premium brand but they also produce an excellent alternative watch called the tudor which gives them access to the mid tier market for expanded market share.

jjp needs to produce a mid tier product, especially if/when the 8000$ segment gets saturated or dries up.

$8,000 ?

They are $9,000 already.

http://www.pinballsales.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=155&idcategory=

I hope pinball manufacturers can survive with products (including even the pro) at the current price level. I know I can't buy NIB beyond current commitments at these prices. Something's got to give.

quick math from a canadian perspective...

9000u$=9866cad + 500cad shipping + 12% tax at border 1183cad= 11549cad

i'm not cheap but i'm not stupid either(i think) so this would never happen for me. so jjp will force me to go to stern for my nib games because he has priced himself out of a massive mid tier market segment.

i don't think i would want to restrict my bottom line to a small segment of the hobby. and really@ 9000 how many new people are going to enter the pinball hobby for a nib.

Wow, that is serious.

Think of all the Australians who never got their WOZ after paying for it. I wondered what they had to pay with the exchange?

The only good news of the $CAD falling harshly lately cmpared to the USD is NIB prices in Canada are starting to look "reasonable" compared to shopping in the states. Still too much though considering what else you can get for that money.

NIB $tar Trek pro, or WPT plus high quality 64 inch TV? Man, that's a tough choice

Sorry, no pinball is worth that to me. I don't care how cool it is. If Jack can't control those spiraling prices I can't see JJP surviving.

Pinchroma in another thread said what the computer cost. It was around $250.

Add LCD, but then the biggest expense is just creating digital assets for it to run.

I thought they were still at $8,000 also . Wow ! and it say's that is the preorder price , usually preorder buyers get some sort of discount . Wow!

The newest woz red edition is 9 K They should just move all pinballs to 15 K and then not raise the price for 3 years. Seems about the same logic

What? No way. PC probably $250-300 and monitor probably $75-150.

Funny thing is the LED DMD that Stern has been using is most likely a lot more expensive than the LCD they are going to switch to.

The cost of the hardware is absolutely insignificant compared to the price to create compelling content to display. You guys keep forgetting that.

I'm not disagreeing that. I was responding to the post that said the whole thing cost $100.

You guys are aware they get a bulk discount

When woz first came out I believe the aud was buying 1.03 usd Now it's .88

A nib aus woz LE is 11k.

MMr nib will be 10k.

I don't know why you think LCD screens are more expensive to buy in bulk than DMD's. Because they are not. It's much easier to get good prices on LCD screens than DMD's. If your going cheaper, you wouldn't want to get rid of the LCD because it would cost you more money.

Ship 1000 LCDs and ship 1000 DMDs, there is a cost difference there. You could fit 150 give or take DMD boxes in one 26" LCD box. That is just a wild guess.

now look at the cost of the LCD's compared to the DMD's. I bet your cost on 1000 LCD is at least half, if not more than the DMD's.

Um, try again, those monitors are ONE MILLION DOLLARS EACH.

You guys all bitch about Jack, but he's eating $992,000 on every pin he sells you. What a guy.

It makes me want to write out an overpriced check for 8k already. Oops. pen ran out of ink. guess i'll wait till game 3.

Didn't see it mentioned... but absolutely the largest cost in any of these machines is the labor. Price goes up because wages go up.

Wow, I'm astonished they're paying that much wholesale. You can walk into Best Buy and get similar prices retail, and that includes a pile of software.

yea, they are not paying that much in that kind of volume. Not when you can get a brand new laptop for $250 at best buy. Desktop equipment is always cheaper and in volume. I wouldn't be surprised if the boards, ram, chip, and LCD cost $150 total per package.

They don't sell commercial grade Wells Gardner displays at Best Buy. And if they did, they would likely be the most expensive displays there by size. Not sure if the PC hardware is ruggedized, but we haven't heard a lot of CPU's being replaced. Cheap PC hardware is just that, cheap. If they were using the cheapest possible hardware, I would think we'd be hearing about a lot more problems.

I disagree. bought my laptop 4 years ago for $240. Still works great to this day.

Find me the same monitor in WOZ for less money than a DMD. Good luck with your search.

Everyone knows that all manufactured products are sold for the highest price a consumer in any given market is willing to pay for them. Production costs have little to do with a selling/asking price point. If you think manufacturers of anything are not selling for the highest price someone is willing to pay for their item, you are delusional.

If it costs JJP 4K to make a game or even 6K, or 7K, they are going to price those games at the highest price that someone is willing to pay. You also have to realize that JJP may have hired more people to keep up with demand... That still does not change the "max price people are willing to pay" model. If you honestly think a company is going to sell an item for 1K or 2K less than they could sell it for as a "favor" for their customers or, to "help support the hobby", then you are an ignorant consumer.

Preordering is always a good way to hype up a release and keep the price point transparent. Not just true in pinball.

I don't have a horse in this race. I buy what I like but always choose to wait a few years until a "new game is announced and hyped up" by some company and then buy that game I really wanted that was new 3-5 years ago. There seems to be a ton of great titles that come up for sale directly after a new title is announced. That's when you can get the best prices on "newer" games. People are willing to sell at a loss or have a fire sale to get the latest and greatest toy on the block.