Soo,. Buy Seawitch and have more fun! Seriously, Beatles just showed up at the local barcade, will give it a fair shake.

After seeing that Catacomb listed yesterday and what classic Sterns are going for, a Seawitch is probably going for the same price as a Beatles pin right now.

I was just gonna say the exact same thing.

The way the prices are going crazy on those old Sterns, they truely will be 10k by Xmas 2019. It’s nuts.

rd

Just like most games manufactured this century?

Gold, Platinum or Diamond?

I don’t know for all games manufactured from 2001 - 2099...I can imagine over that period of time yes, a lot of any game will hit the secondary market.

Obviously my point was I don’t think these will be long term keepers, other than for those that REALLY needed to have one based on theme alone (see original comment). For the money, there are just a slew of better pins available from a playability perspective, with more to come.

For instance, I think you will see more of these on the secondary market faster than MBr’s, which were concomitantly released.

As for diamonds and platinums, people will hold onto them because they won’t fathom eating half of the money they spent NIB.

I would disagree strongly with that. MBr is going to be one of the most resold games for the next few years. People will love it at first, get tired of it fast, and be ready for the next one. The Beatles at least has really short ball times which gives it the one more play vibe. If you only have a few minutes you can go play a game on it. People said the same thing with BM66LE and BM66SLE and they have held their value better then any stern since STLE. Plus there are going to be more MBr then The Beatles pins and that alone will contribute to a lot more of them trading hands. MB is a great game, but it's also typically one of the quickest sold in the top 10 for most people.

Have a the Beatles shown up on the used market yet? Typically there would already be a couple of stern pro's that someone decided they hate and want gone by now on most releases.

I agree with the numbers argument because it’s basic math, but that’s it. Mbr has so much more to offer. Sea witch is a great game, but it’s no IM for speed and flow. Adding a couple magnets won’t help imo. I see Beatles likely being rotated quickly for many, and I don’t see as much of a buying market pool. Secondary purchasers are going to get a hell of a deal: my guesstimate is that after about a year, this pin will be 4K.

It's always strange to me when someone basis market projections on their person preferences and not one historical data. There are reasons why nice examples of Fathom, Centuar, EBD, Seawitch, etc are not available very often. They didn't make a ton of them and the people that have them do not sell them very often. MB on the other hand has always been well liked but also a game that gets moved around often. I guess you think that this is the worst game ever made by your 4K prediction. No stern has ever taken a hit like that, none of them at any point if well cared for. There's not a single stern ever produced that has seen a fall close to that. WWE is probably the closest but even those only took a 2K or so hit. So is this game twice as bad as WWE?

I’m going on what data I have. I agreed with your assessment of numbers. Mbr will trade more based on numbers. As for Beatlewitch, Stern hasn’t remade an older pin like sea witch as far as I know. It’s an old pin that lacks much of what modern pins offer. I see it more like Whoa Nellie: 6500 msrp and I’m betting has sold for 3k. Pinside values it at 4.5k on the low end. My number is likely a bit low, but we’ll see. Your assessment is as much opinion as mine.

Most people paid $5500-$5800 NIB for WNBJM NIB. They sell at around $4500-$4800 which is about an 18% drop. Not close to 50%. If someone sold a WNBJM for 3K they left $1500 on the table.

My point is that there will be a substantial drop in price with beatlewitch. Clearly you disagree, and clearly you have not convinced me otherwise. Maybe it will only be 18%, but I think it will be more as this is a NEW cash grab strategy for stern. Time will tell, and that, my friend, is fact.

Maybe it will drop a little more then others have. I just don't see a scenario that has them dropping at 50% or close to that. Anything is possible but that is unheard of with modern sterns. It's more likely to follow the same pattern as the majority of releases with 10-15% drop for a HUO example. People called the last kapow release of BM66 a cash grab and openly mocked everyone that bought one. The LE's and SLE's have held their value extremely well and the premium has seen a normal resale drop. There's very little reason to expect much different on these. The Diamonds will stay locked up with fans or collectors, the Platinums with sell on rare occasions for a small loss, the golds will fall right into the 10-15% line like other titles have.

I'd agree with you to some extent if we were seeing a pile of QC issues or a lot of reports of people hating the game. All we see are people bitching about the price and those that play it pretty much across the board has said they enjoy it and it's fun. Even people that don't like the theme have admitted that the layout tweaks are very nice and that it plays well. Most games that tank do not get good reports and are themes that are just not well received. In this case we have a game that people like, a theme that most people like, and a price that no one really likes.

Classic...that name is going to stick for me.

In the end I guess it won’t matter. With every game being $5500, even classic Sterns, the hobby will end soon altogether. I guess I should have upped the price on the Nice Stern Dracula I just sold for $900.

Lol, you 2 sure are some Debby downers. NIB games taking 50% hits, used games skyrocketing beyond everyone's reach, and finally the end of pinball.

Haha...

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So basically the bubble is finally going to burst?!?!?!

And Beatles is the pin that's gonna prick it?!?!

Goddamn, I knew the end was near, as it has been for 20 years, but clearly, this is the final blow!!

(BTW you guys are nuts if you can buy a HUO Beatles for $5500 in a year I'LL BUY YOU ONE!)

Some interesting opinions here for sure

Beatles is no more of a cash grab than a 12k JJP POTC with fisher price sponge bob barnacles and a bunch of plastic toys and a low quality tv display which you can get a nice 4K ultra of that size for pretty cheap these days. No more of a cash grab than any of the cgc remakes which were all originally 2-2.5 k machines that were made in massive quantities and adjusted for inflation would be no higher than 5k today but everyone is ok with them being 7-8k with their fancy vending machine plastic toys and oversized dmd displays. These 3 are some of the most over rated pinball machines ever made.

Wake up people, they are all a cash grab ripoff but they are fun and that is all that matters.

If the hobby is getting to expensive for you, go find something else to do.

I'm taking you on this bet with the hopes of someone dropping one down a flight of stairs or something. Anyone with a busted HUO Beatles hit me and LEVI up so he can arrange shipment and payment. I don't wish anyone's game to get partially destroyed but if it happens I'll take it.

A bunch of 50-70 year olds arguing over toys. Priceless first world problems.

Anyway, much of the complaints about price is that what you are seeing from this title alone is higher cost for less game. You can try to compare them to the CGC releases and even JJP, but in the end, THOSE games still offer more for the same price or less than this game. This game is ALL theme, and some will like it, some will hate it. The fear is that this will set a precedent. Oh look what we can get away with, let's try to sell an EM game with LCD's and a new art package for $10k next! Realistically 12k for a pinball machine makes this no longer a hobby (as has been stated). Just a rich mans game. It will eventually kill it for good, unless prices get under control. You can pretend this isn't an issue because who would have thought people would pay more than $4k for a machine 20 years ago right, but there is a limit. You aren't going to sell as many at 10k as you would at 5k. What would eventually happen is a handful of games coming out at astronomical prices. The current price structure and scheduling is not sustainable with each new release creeping up in price.

I'm not complaining about prices, or this game, just trying to be realistic. Myself, I'm glad I can afford these things currently - 20 years ago I'd never imagine paying 8k for a pinball machine - let alone having the money to do it. That being said, you either want to give more people access to pinball machines, or you want to make as fast a profit as possible. You can't have both at these prices. Barcades are BARS. Bars go under constantly because they rarely make money. You think those places can afford 8k-12k constantly to rotate in new games? This resurgence is going to be shortlived unless someone comes in and shakes things up. Do I question this specific pin and what they are trying to accomplish? Sure, but at the end of it - this pin isn't for pinheads. This is a collectors pin for a Beatles lover (and very hardcore pinheads). I do not think very many of these will get resold until the owners die or go into an old folks home. If this pin doesn't represent the future, great - they make some money to keep them going. The problem is...that isn't usually how companies work. Typically when something like this is successful, they milk it.

EDITED many times :p

It already is. Despite pinball being relatively "hot" right now, it is a tiny market. The only way for these companies to say alive is to charge more. Due to the age group of pinball collectors on Pinside being older, they are remembering past prices.

Those days are dead.

The simple cold truth is that NIB pinball is a rich man's game, and no amount of bitching and complaining is going to change it.

If you have means, you are going to be able to continue buying NIB. If not, you are shut out of this space.

This does not make it right or wrong. It is just the reality of the situation.

Classy. With that attitude, you are a gentleman and certainly want this hobby to thrive for a long time.

I’m not speaking about myself and all the other people on this site and in this hobby that love to piss away money.

I am constantly selling people their first game, and trying to get new people into this hobby. That is who I’m talking about. If every game is $3000 to $5000 at minimum, it will definitely shy people away from getting into it. Then once all the old-timers are gone with the massive collections, there will be no new blood for this thing to continue for a long time. Not many people want to spend a few thousand bucks on their first game.

Let's be fair- you can get into this hobby for 500 bucks. Or 900 bucks! That Dracula you have for sale is a fantastic deal.

If it's a "rich man's hobby" for someone, they need to adjust their expectations of what pinball is all about. My first game was 350 bucks, and I'm sure that's true for many folks!

You aren't wrong, but the games have to come from somewhere. Someone has to buy them NIB first. Talking about EM's and old SS's really isn't the issue in this day because even though they've went up in price, they are still as you say something someone can get into, but at some point someone had to buy those brand new to even be able to sell them used. The issue is the NIB prices. Eventually I think new pins will bring older pin prices down, not sure when that would happen though. There will be a saturation point. One cannot continue to add to their collection easily (well most of us lol).

I'm not suggesting we are going back to 4k NIB prices, but they need to peak somewhere. This hobby is unique in that it's not a baseball card that can be stashed in a box, it takes quite a bit of room, it's also a 'toy' not a necessity. There are so many roadblocks to being in it, that the numbers are already small. I truly think that even though our generation is the key to the resurgence right now, to get younger people in the hobby is going to require rethinking the old dated marketing, rather than just increasing prices until only a handful of people can afford them. Even those people will stop buying at some point. The economy was booming for a few years and we are getting ready to crash hard. I don't think the pinball enthusiast market can shoulder 4-5 pinball companies selling their machines for 8-12k for very long.

It won't. You will have 2-3. Everybody tosses out 8-12K but entry price for a Stern is 5.5K. Lot of money, but it is no different than collecting high end watches, artwork, guitars, etc. These are niche markets where the barriers of entry can be high.

Let's put it into other terms. I like boats. Boats can run from relatively inexpensive to beyond belief. I can get into boating at relatively any price range, but it is not a necessity. But if I can not afford a Hinkley (1M+) or a Benneateau (1M+), I can go get a Sea Doo (4.5k) or a Boston Whaler (14K). If I want a higher end or bigger boat, I can look used. Now for some people, 4.5K is nothing, and for others it is a lot. However, that is the price of admission to get into boating. Pinball is the same way.

Buying a brand new pinball machine is not a right.

In niche markets, you tend to see companies go to the high end. They have more money and are less prone to swings in the economy. Because pinball is transitioning between location to home use, you are seeing the same thing.

Does this make it hard to get into pinball? Sure does? But guess what, it always has been. Lots of money, tons of space, finicky mechanical design, etc.

Does not make it right or wrong, just the reality of things.

Deep Root may have a Paladium version.

I am a firm believer that saturation is here. Newbs are going to see KILLER DEALS in the next five years. Prices will be absolutely tanking in ten. I was going to sell everything to make a good profit, but then I came to my senses: I would be a shell of a man without my collection. I’ll take the hit for the fun.

Stern is doing like the home builders. Build way more house than many people need or can afford because that is where the money is at.

If you want prices to stagnate or fall, QUIT TRYING TO GET MORE PEOPLE INTO PINBALL.

I'm not joking.

That wouldn't work either. Prices went up the last time that happened and got us to where we are now.

I saw prices fall into where a WH20 or DrWho was $700 any any classic Bally like Xenon was $300

That's when all these rich guys were NOT into pinball.

And what was it like collecting pinball machines with Moses and the other people you grew up with?

Pfft $300. I paid $185

What you are saying though, only really works if companies are still making games. Once they aren't making games, the prices go up. Kind of a catch 22. Maybe we need less rich people >

Hang the rich

Remember when all the lawyers in pinball were just for our court cases and not buying LEs?

When was this "singularity" point where the rich decided pinball machines were now a new status symbol? Did it start with the massive "man cave" building and whatnot?

Exactly.

I remember that whenever you would talk about a replacement Bally MPU from Alltek, everyone would say "That costs more than the entire game!!!!!"

Huh...good question. Well I bought my first game in 2007, so that wasn't the bottom floor but shit was still cheap then. I bet Vid could tell you 2003 or 4 might have been the lowest point? Not sure I was out of the game by the end of 2000.

So I think the "man-cave" revolution was already in full swing by then.

I would think the huge spike started with WOZ in 2013...where are all our pinside nerds with the graphs to show us the price increases?

Prices were already steadily increasing in the used market by 2004. That is when I decided I wasn't going to buy any more the first time.

Saturation? Is 'Peak Pinball' finally here?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/peak-oil-peak-pinball/page/2

The poll of Pinsiders in the above thread from 5 years ago suggested 51% of the respondents thought Peak Pinball would be reached by 2015. They were wrong. Another 11% thought it would be reached by 2020.

We will hit saturation, globally, if new people aren't regularly introduced to pinball. In Australia, the number of pinball competitions, and the numbers of enthusiasts competing in them, has been rising rapidly over the last 4 year, and will be bigger again in 2019. If saturation is coming, it won't be starting in Australia.

images-1 (resized).png

I'm going by sales in my area. Available pins have gone up by about 10x. When I started (a mere 4 years ago), pins would sell within half an hour. I'm not joking. I had to consistenly check the web several times a day to even have a chance to buy anything. Now there are 10-15 pins sitting for sale at any given time. The guys that want 2016 prices are not selling their pins. They eventually take them off or advertise price drops. If shit ain't selling, I'm thinking saturation is here, at least in my area. Wait until Munsters. All the hungry LE buyers will flood the market with whatever they want to get rid of. I also see that some guys struggle with trades because they either have too many machines or no one wants to give them paper value. GBLE is a good example. Perceived value is dropping. I would bank a good number of you don't think some of the new LEs are worth even a modestly discounted price in trade. There are just too many freakin' pinball machines. I don't have any room myself... First world problems...

there is a 'flight to safety' taking place from the stock market to classic pinballs.

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It’s not just the saturation from the mfg’s putting tons of games out but there are barcades and pinball bars opening all over the US and makes them much more accessible to the average person without having to buy. Now while they are introducing new people to the hobby but I’d bet the number that actually buy a new game is pretty small in the big picture.
Only us addicts bring collections into our homes! Lol

Good lord man. $4k!!! At least be reasonable with your arguments and projections. As others have said, there is absolutely no historical data to show that this is in the realm of possibility. Especially for a game that get good reviews for those that play it. I mean, we could debate if you thought $6k or so but $4k is laughable for this game.

Met two newbies last week in a great barcade in Dallas. They got exposed to pinball at the barcade. Both of them have NIB games on the way to their homes . One of them a POTCLE which also happens to be at the barcade. Don’t think we can assume the availability of machines in the barcades is going to slow the growth of home sales

I agree, and once you experience pinball in the home, it's hard to go back to the arcade. When I moved to LA, I thought I'd largely convert to public play (since there are many barcades). Was just the opposite...made me realize how much better home play is (where you control all the variables...like sound, light, etc.). Considering how cheaply the new games are made, the play degrades quickly when they are in a well traveled barcade.

snaroff

My favorite row of 7 pins doesn't contain one that cost over 1000 dollars, and most of them were well under 500, a couple less than 200.... As you say, the hobby is as expensive as your expectations make it.

Can’t speak for the sales, or pricing etc but played a “gold” edition last night at a retro themed bar and I loved it. It was fun and looked great.

Would I love it in my home after a thousand plays? Maybe not. But it looks cool as heck. The contrast of old meets new is special.

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Here's what it looks like "lit up". Consider the poor lighting in most barcades, a bummer that the pin has 0 spots. Fortunately, there are aftermarket solutions

snaroff

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I played one in a local bar and didn't find it to be a dark game. They are clearly trying to give this game some feel for the 60s with the art, theme, and simulated score reels. This extends some of the lighting features like the turquoise pop bumpers and warm LED GI. The after market lights hide some of the side art and reflect off the plastics and metal pieces on the sides of the play field causing a candy cane effect that I find to be a major distraction.