(Topic ID: 295141)

How about Custom Code for CGC remakes?

By Bublehead

4 months ago


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  • 96 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by chickenscratch
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 96 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 months ago

Ok, so people think their machine is good in the "it was good enough back then" sense, but others have explored adding custom code to older B/W titles and I feel CGC's remakes could be one set of machines that could benefit from newer code. Why not a MMC or an AFMC or a MBC? They all share a similar code base from the emulation standpoint.

Why just bling out the accessories when what these titles could really use is a code facelift, especially when comparing their gameplay and rulesets to modern coded pins? We got companies supplying high end aftermarket toppers that do nothing for the gameplay, yet people are dishing out "seat" worthy amounts of money for a box of gold plated blinking lights.

And to define "seat" worthy for those not in the software industry, I'm talking about licensing fees software companies charge for a single "seat" or user of their software. How much would people be willing to shell out to have a AFM with added code? You could add all kinds of new side modes, and still keep the original main modes building to RTU, just randomize the additional modes into the scoop code. Include new callouts, new music, custom callouts the owner supplies... customized animations. Seems like this is an avenue of revenue that should be explored, so this is the thread to explore it.

Any other CGC owners who would pay for additional code development? How much would you be willing to fork out? If people paid $300-$400 just to add color to their CE's... what would you spend to see new code developed? If someone wanted to capitalize the effort, would PPS and WMS be open to allowing it for a piece of the action? Thoughts, comments?

#2 4 months ago

These games all sell out their entire runs without “new” code.

The code on all the remakes so far was done by Lyman. Don’t know why you think anybody else would do a better job.

If there’s a reason for CGC to want to do this, I’m not seeing it. It’s fan-fiction, not profitable pinball production.

#3 4 months ago

These remakes are classics for a reason, not only good theme, but good layout and balanced scoring

Why mess with what works?

#4 4 months ago

So why does this ring so hollow for the people wanting CC to be CCC? Don't tell me there are not people who want expanded code, they sold a few BOP 2.0's and people say CC needs a code update. If it is "the classic" you say it is, then why do people want a code update for CC? Just put out that wonderful classic code and be done with it. Yeah, right, and we have an actual developer adding (with permission) things to old B/W classic titles, there's even a thread here on it, along with fixing old bugs? You are not the entire voice of Pinside Crazy, so lets let others chime in before you try your major thread squashing tactics here, OK?

#5 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

So why does this ring so hollow for the people wanting CC to be CCC? Don't tell me there are not people who want expanded code, they sold a few BOP 2.0's and people say CC needs a code update. If it is "the classic" you say it is, then why do people want a code update for CC? Just put out that wonderful classic code and be done with it. Yeah, right, and we have an actual developer adding (with permission) things to old B/W classic titles, there's even a thread here on it, along with fixing old bugs? You are not the entire voice of Pinside Crazy, so lets let others chime in before you try your major thread squashing tactics here, OK?

People want "custom/expanded code." Just like they want every game to have 15 magnets and 3 upper and lower playfields.

Doesn't mean it makes any sense for CGC to do it.

I repeat, all of their remakes have sold out, without having to invest time, money, and staffing resources on fixing what isn't broken: classic Lyman code.

It's an idea that doesn't seem to make sense for a company whose reason to exist is profit. But then, Pinside specializes in this kind of "fan fiction" thinking.

#6 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

So why does this ring so hollow for the people wanting CC to be CCC?

Different situation with CC. The code for that game was grossly unfinished. It is a necessity to finish the code for a remake or an original. For the others, a code enhance would be great but would come at a huge cost for the coder. Fooling around with 30 year old code is tricky at best. Not worth the few bucks for a code enhancement.

#7 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Doesn't mean it makes any sense for CGC to do it.

And my question was applying to a third party company, not the OEM. We have third party toppers, why not third party code for machines out of warranty (which is what, almost every machine older than 2 years?)

And no, not fan fiction, but fan enablement, or fan business creation. I am a coder worthy of taking on these kinds challenges, but there are ways of doing this "the right way", the illegal (wrong) way, and the DILLIGAF way. So, shoot me for testing the waters for desire, costs, and want-ability. If I want to ask people for their opinion, I will, and have done so right here, and your's has been noted. Thank you for your reply.

#8 4 months ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Not worth the few bucks for a code enhancement.

Yet, as stated, someone is already doing this for older titles with permission from PPS and WMS. So why do people think code development is going to be cost prohibitive? Because they are so behind the curve as it stands with current manufacturers? We all know they push the hardware before the code is even dry, thats just the nature of the cycle they have created due to the lack of resources. I think there exists an aftermarket for custom code, and others do too. Its getting the ball rolling (capitalization) that limits the market right now. A one man show might be able to recode two titles a year. But a team might do ten titles in 6 months, it all depends on what people are willing to pay to play something new inside something old, or as I think about it, applying old skills at new challenges.

#9 4 months ago

The interesting thing to me would be not just expanded or enhanced code ( although an option ) but alternate code . It would be cool to be able to toggle between the three maybe : original ; enhanced ; alternate .

#10 4 months ago

I own AFMr and MMr. I agree the code is already fine the way it is. That being said if someone was offering revamped, expanded, alternate code that I could chose or simply swap out an SD card, I would be interested at a $300 to $400 price point. I would be intrigued by someone else's take on the available hardware. The DM alternate code was a fun change.

#11 4 months ago

The biggest hurdle is getting access to the source code (copy-written) and assets like existing DMD sequences, voice calls and music, based solely on redistributing them with updated rule code. When I alluded to the right way and illegal way, this is the reason behind it. You could recode and redraw all the artwork and provide all new music and callouts but that is not going to happen for Monster Bash (third party license involved) without approval from Universal and by default, the owners of MM and AFM rights would have a say on using existing code from them as well. The OEM would need to be involved and help get any licensing issues ironed out. Which brings us back to the capitalization... who would pay and how much to obtain the rights in order to release any new code. Nobody said it would be easy, but get enough backing and anything is possible. I would have never thought they would let anyone touch the old code, yet it is happening for older titles, why not make something old new again? i.e. Fathom 2.0

#12 4 months ago

I'm no patent lawyer but you could give the code away for free but charge $300 for the SD card. We are just talking here. And to be fair, 95% of Pinside is speculation of things that never happen.

#13 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I am a coder worthy of taking on these kinds challenges

How many pinball machines have you coded?

And before you brush that off as a rude question, I’m actually serious. In my opinion this is a specialized skill set. A lot of people could handle the coding if they had access to all the source, libraries, and assets. But would the result be something pinheads wanted to play?

That’s why people seek out games that Lyman programmed. He doesn’t just write code, he creates rules we want to play. When that is missing, pinball is bad, or worse, boring.

If you gave me all the full developer environment, I’d also be able to write new rules in it. But I’d end up being the only person that wanted to play the result. Or worse, it would just be a copy with rules I liked from other games. I learned that by trying to write pinball rules.

The other side of it is change, and a lot of people don’t like change. I learned that one from buying a few PinSound boards. They just sound fantastic in games. However, players in leagues hate them in games. I’d hear “complaints” because the sounds were different. Even loading the original mixes was not good enough because there were always small things wrong with them.

Finally, why would they? I realize that was already asked, but seriously. If you were Lyman wanting to do it, I’d say heck yeah, here’s the code, go nuts. But if you were anyone else I’d tell you to stop wasting my time and pound sand. The downsides far outweigh the upside of this equation for the company.

Quoted from Bublehead:

You are not the entire voice of Pinside Crazy, so lets let others chime in before you try your major thread squashing tactics here, OK?

I know!!! I hate how he goes into pricing threads and squashes them with the truth about how many other people have created the exact same thread. He even rubs their noses in it with links going all the way back to RGP. CrazyLevi is such a thread squasher.

#14 4 months ago

Why only re-write the code for the CGC remakes?
If re-writing the code for classic games is good, why not do them all?

I don't think that I would buy or use the new code, but I don't understand why the distinction between remakes and originals would apply here.

#15 4 months ago

Irony: People in an industry that specializes in selling people on things they don't need (mods) for their things they don't need (pins) are saying we don't need new code. I think you're all missing the point here. "Need" isn't the question.

Like Bublehead said, people are paying a LOT of money for small upgrades. $400 for a color chip on a retro game to make it less retro is insane to me. But this hobby is FULL of unnecessary things that seem insane to me. And yet we keep wanting what we see and spending $$$. I don't think it's crazy to think hundreds of people would buy new code for a game (sight unseen) if they discovered it. If a color chip goes for $400, I'd easily see new software going for $500-1000.

I can't believe I'm even typing that last line, but it goes inline with the pricing of "all extravagant things pinball" right now.

For any of the naysayers, let me ask you this: In our world of $1500 toppers, if new code came out tomorrow don't you think people would line up to spend many hundreds of dollars on it? That's really the question at hand, not "is it necessary?"

#16 4 months ago

There is demand for this type of thing at a reasonable price. In the arcade world we have "Donkey Kong Remix" which is an add-on chip you buy for your original Donkey Kong PCB. It adds a free play option as well as a toggle to "new code" of a remixed game with new levels, difficulty settings and even a trainer to help make you better at the game.

I have a version of this in my Donkey Kong arcade cabinet. I think at the time I spent maybe $50-$60 on it and it had fewer options than the link below. For the hours I put into it I very much got my moneys worth.

https://www.arcadeshop.com/i/1271/donkey-kong-remix-kit-deranged-trainer-pace.htm

I think if the code was easy to install on my MMr and cheap (enough) I'd try it. Generally though I'd see it as a novelty designed to change things up... but I would not shell out major cash to rebuild a wheel (or in this case some of the best programmed pinball games ever).

#17 4 months ago

This idea has been discussed many times before. Some random thoughts because I couldn’t be bothered compiling this into a cohesive post.

I know it’s never going to happen but open source code for modern games would be awesome.

Cactus Canyon was unfinished, so it has to get new code to make it viable.

Fathom is getting new code but it’s original code is very basic.

The idea of completely new versions of games you already love is really appealing. If someone could find an easy to install plug and play way to overhaul classic games, like a colour dmd sort of thing, it would sell well.

Having said that BOP 2.0 was a bit of a flop, and it was about as polished and plug and play as you could get.

But how much do you think people will pay for this upgrade kit? I think BOP 2.0 didn’t work mostly because of price. Wouldn’t be cheap with the hardware and coding time required. But if someone could provide a hardware and coding platform, like colour dmd, and farm the coding out to the community, like colour dmd, where the coders are basically working for love, it could work.

Imagine the brilliant new versions of games we could get with the talent and obsession we have in this community.

#18 4 months ago

Some choose to "squash threads" with insight gleaned from decades of experience, others choose to do it with giant chunks of text without paragraph breaks. We all got our own M.O.

Hey, is anybody rushing out to fork out $500-1000 for this custom code yet?
gof (resized).jpg

#19 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Some choose to "squash threads" with insight gleaned from decades of experience, others choose to do it with giant chunks of text without paragraph breaks. We all got our own M.O.
Hey, is anybody rushing out to fork out $500-1000 for this custom code yet?
[quoted image]

It’s not my normal M.O. - I used to leave the extended mono paragraph posts to flynnibus but now he’s stopped doing it.

Hence I felt it was missing on Pinside of late. But I know you have trouble reading more than a few lines so I’ll be mindful next time.

#20 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

It’s not my normal M.O. - I used to leave the extended mono paragraph posts to flynnibus but now he’s stopped doing it.
Hence I felt it was missing on Pinside of late. But I know you have trouble reading more than a few lines so I’ll be mindful next time.

You are many things but a paragraph eschewer you aren’t. Keep up the good work!

#21 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You are many things but a paragraph eschewer you aren’t. Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement.

What’s the pic? Is there a NGC C in the works?

#22 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement.
What’s the pic? Is there a NGC C in the works?

How could you miss it?!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ngg20-new-code-for-your-no-good-gofers-2020

#23 4 months ago

Wow, how did i miss that chestnut?!?

Well, that’s what countless hours of programming brings. Not easy.

Looks like it ended up being $1395 plus the p-roc - so close to $2k. I think bop 2.0 was about the same. At the time it was more expensive than the original game itself.

Wonder how many Ngg C’a he sold in the end. Not the most active thread.

#24 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Wow, how did i miss that chestnut?!?
Well, that’s what countless hours of programming brings. Not easy.
Looks like it ended up being $1395 plus the p-roc - so close to $2k. I think bop 2.0 was about the same. At the time it was more expensive than the original game itself.
Wonder how many Ngg C’a he sold in the end. Not the most active thread.

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of animal that grey thing is supposed to be.

#25 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of animal that grey thing is supposed to be.

It’s a scary looking thing - I thought they were supposed to be kind of cute?

Over here the biggest pest on a golf course is a mob of kangaroo’s. That thing looks like a bit like a demented kangaroo.

#26 4 months ago

It was "upgraded" NGG that didn't fix the main problem with the NGG code so...yippee.

These threads are always completely stupid, and usually made by people "that are up for this sort of challenge" because its more interesting to them than anyone else.
I dont know why people think it's so easy to code a game and invent modes, and even easier to just make multiple versions you can toggle through!
Classic code csn be fantastic, dumb to think just because time has past means were better equipped to make code. OMG, they were so dumb back then, Stern makes you complete the modes; Morty's Mind Blowers!!1!
Unless you mean going back and JJPing everything and adding a bunch of meaningless stuff that adds 20 "wizard modes."
"Holy shit did you wizard that thing?"
"No brau, I only got to 6 wizard modes."
"Ouch...thats pretty bad. "
"Shut up and kiss me"

Edit: Its almost like these classic remakes of classic games were made because the games are already classics

#27 4 months ago

Glad to see this rubs so many the wrong way, I would rather be known for making people see more red than green.
As far as what have I actually coded, and if I am up to the challenge, let's ask this... Anyone else been paid for coding and developing virtual shaking saucers for AFM, or completely authored a pinball coding framework for creating an original title? Or completely authored a virtual pinball machine? Or I could continue with my other pinball related coding projects, but currently I'm getting a 6 figure salary plus bonus coding for a national bank. So, If I wanted, yeah, I could throw new code for my MBrLE. I'm just asking if creating Continued code for the remakes would interest anyone else besides myself.

#28 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Or I could continue with my other pinball related coding projects, but currently I'm getting a 6 figure salary plus bonus coding for a national bank.

worth.gif
#29 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

...but currently I'm getting a 6 figure salary plus bonus coding for a national bank. .

Fuck dude, call me when someone doesn't make 6 figures on Pinside. Have you SEEN Icemans pool?!

#30 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Glad to see this rubs so many the wrong way, I would rather be known for making people see more red than green.
As far as what have I actually coded, and if I am up to the challenge, let's ask this... Anyone else been paid for coding and developing virtual shaking saucers for AFM, or completely authored a pinball coding framework for creating an original title? Or completely authored a virtual pinball machine? Or I could continue with my other pinball related coding projects, but currently I'm getting a 6 figure salary plus bonus coding for a national bank. So, If I wanted, yeah, I could throw new code for my MBrLE. I'm just asking if creating Continued code for the remakes would interest anyone else besides myself.

You sound a bit too thin skinned to code pinball for a major manufacturer. If you can't handle comments by Levi, this might not be your industry.

#31 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I'm just asking if creating Continued code for the remakes would interest anyone else besides myself.

Yes, Darscott. He could do it super quick too cause he's an awesome coder for a major Videogame company. Coders know everyone lives DLC

#32 4 months ago

Whenever people start bragging about their fabulous wealth around here I can't help but flash back to that dude who swore he owned not only Porsche and a 4k television, but also a top of the line LE edition bulldog (with papers!)

It pretty much ended the discussion, as none of us could ever hope to aspire to such material richness.

#33 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Some choose to "squash threads" with insight gleaned from decades of experience, others choose to do it with giant chunks of text without paragraph breaks. We all got our own M.O.

Hey, I use lots of paragraph breaks.

These threads are always the same. If you have a good idea and you think you're the person to execute it, then do it. Talk is cheap. Shut up, roll up your sleeves, and demonstrate that you're capable of creating an original feature that's better than the existing game. Nobody will believe you until then. I sure don't believe you now.

Don't forget the music, sound, animation, light show, and syncing it all together. It's EZ. Ask anyone who's actually done it.

Or, realize you're just hot air. There's no in between.

#34 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

currently I'm getting a 6 figure salary plus bonus coding for a national bank.

The bubble(head) is about to burst!

#35 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Whenever people start bragging about their fabulous wealth around here

I'll start.

I'm the wealthy MOFO you'll ever see.

I have friends.

LTG : )

#36 4 months ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Different situation with CC. The code for that game was grossly unfinished. It is a necessity to finish the code for a remake or an original. For the others, a code enhance would be great but would come at a huge cost for the coder. Fooling around with 30 year old code is tricky at best. Not worth the few bucks for a code enhancement.

We have also been waiting 2-3 years for CC to get updated code. If code enhancement means wait another year or two then I will pass.

#37 4 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Fuck dude, call me when someone doesn't make 6 figures on Pinside. Have you SEEN Icemans pool?!

Right, I would imagine most of pinside is hitting 6 figures or at least their spouse is.

#38 4 months ago
Quoted from woody76:

Right, I would imagine most of pinside is hitting 6 figures or at least their spouse is.

I understand these pro coders trying to get their greedy hooks in at the right time.
In the middle of the switch over of pinball being THE cheapest fuckers in the world, to the richest

#39 4 months ago

I would be very interested in a remake of a 90's pin with rules and code from today's standards.
Pinball design hasn't evolved as much as the code. So a 90's pin can feel like having a great game design while the code always feels outdated. (if you are looking for a more modern pinball experience)

If you are making a remake it would be a great opportunity to make a new code. But as someone already wrote on this topic, if the runs sell out with the old code then why bother.

#40 4 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Have you SEEN Icemans pool?!

No but here is mine when we first had it built:

And yes that is my backyard wall WAY back there...

#41 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

You could recode and redraw all the artwork and provide all new music and callouts but that is not going to happen for Monster Bash (third party license involved) without approval from Universal

I'm sorry, but that asshat ASOA promised me that MBr would be "two great games in one!!!"

11
#42 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

And yes that is my backyard wall WAY back there...

I'm convinced, you're clearly the person to out-program Lyman. Has anyone even seen his backyard? I rest my case.

#43 4 months ago

If you are coding a new game based on an old game you might as well just make a whole brand new game. Otherwise you are limited by playfield design and inserts.

#44 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

you're clearly the person to out-program Lyman

Lyman is probably making the same money I am, he just has better job satisfaction. And out-programing him is not my goal, adding more value to existing hardware is. These boxes, minus their code are just heaps of old pinball parts. Imagine how much better a title might be and how much enjoyment is to be had by manipulating a bunch of one's and zeros. I see old machines as an untapped physical resource.

#45 4 months ago

A great pinball has a perfect marriage of physical design, rules, choreography, sound, music, and lights all working together to make an excellent experience. It's not easy. The B/W games that have been remade are PERFECT games. They don't need anything else. It's like taking the negatives of Citizen Kane and thinking you can turn it into something better. Bonafide classics are classics for a reason. I'll even take a supposed "flawed" classic like NGG over that horribly ugly new code "update". If you want something different, there are different games available....and if perfect games don't make you a happy pinball player, you're in the wrong hobby.

#46 4 months ago

Interesting. Remark from the CCC dev a long time ago:
Recoding from the original code is a nightmare and prevent you from adding a lot of things including music and videos because of memory limitations on chipset.
Recoding with a new language force you to recreate everything from scratch with a HUGE amount of time and work. This has been done already for the CC, Indiana jones and Totan. Indi project last 6 years, CCC about 5 and theTotan project is really well advanced and ladt around 4 years I think with new code and old code melts together minus bug flows ans with rules still ongoing on last rev. There was still last rev of BW with flaws and rules unbalanced....
So it’s possible but require a lot of works so I get why CGC didn’t go this way at first even if it might change a bit for the upcoming CCC to come. It costs .. a lot.

#47 4 months ago

What a bunch of whiny douche bags in this thread . Whether or not any of this comes to fruition ( and it already has on multiple games ) why are you hating on the idea ? How has this discussion hurt you ? What an awful idea to breath new life into a game ! Or have multiple versions for you to select from ?! The horror . I don’t even care if it happens but it’s intriguing. But by all means just go around crapping on every idea that’s different from your preference or comfort zone . Wow

#48 4 months ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

What a bunch of whiny douche bags in this thread ....

Too true

Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

...why are you hating on the idea ? How has this discussion hurt you ? What an awful idea to breath new life into a game ! Or have multiple versions for you to select from ?! The horror . I don’t even care if it happens but it’s intriguing. But by all means just go around crapping on every idea that’s different from your preference or comfort zone . Wow

Always room for one more whiny douche bag; welcome.

#49 4 months ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

What a bunch of whiny douche bags in this thread . Whether or not any of this comes to fruition ( and it already has on multiple games ) why are you hating on the idea ? How has this discussion hurt you ? What an awful idea to breath new life into a game ! Or have multiple versions for you to select from ?! The horror . I don’t even care if it happens but it’s intriguing. But by all means just go around crapping on every idea that’s different from your preference or comfort zone . Wow

The OP asked for opinions. Most are that his idea is not a good one.
Not sure how that makes anyone a "whiny douche bag", but that's your opinion, I guess.

#50 4 months ago
Quoted from RCA1:

Most are that his idea is not a good one.

I would say there was more vitriol in the replies than just a bad opinion on the idea. And who would have thought that third party toppers were such a good thing until they dropped a gold plated one? With all this fat cash people are waving around, you would think there would be more interest in start up businesses for pinball add ons and "exclusive" custom coding. I can see now why so many of my pinball friends say "I used to follow Pinside, but not so much anymore except when I need to buy/sell a game".

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