6200 obo now
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-houdini-23#post-4498110
How low do they go? Only time will tell.
(Topic ID: 218290)
Quoted from Parzival:These two games sit next to each other in my basement, and were both bought new in box. I took a few weeks with both games before making comments:
- Dialed In (I have the LE) is a masterpiece. Comparing any game to DI is going to be extremely tough. I also really don't understand the gripes about the theme. As someone else said, "If Dialed In is about a cell phone, Twilight Zone is about a clock and gumball machine".
- Houdini, when set up correctly in the home environment, is definitely an above average game. It can be challenging, but once the flippers are turned down some, shots become easier. Playing a successful game of Houdini feels better than playing a successful game of DI (partially I admit because it happens less often). My wife is a notice player btw, and loves Houdini (barely plays DI)
- I had considerably more issues with my NIB Dialed In LE, then my NIB Houdini. Customer service for both has been outstanding.
- Determing resale value of any machine is tough when they are still offered NIB. Pinside has seen DI LE for $7500 (https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/65949 - a $1500 discount), and Houdini for $6250 (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-houdini-22 - a $750 discount). To me, even at those prices, I'd rather have NIB. This may seem silly to some, but buying from dealers that do this every day and having a dedicated warranty is worth the extra money to me (plus unboxing is fun!). For that matter, even all time classic (remake) games like AFMr and MMr sell at a significant discount compared to NIB. So I don't think game quality is absolutely the best predictor of resale values when they are still being offered NIB.
Overall, I won't argue Dialed In is a better game then Houdini. But only because Dialed In may be the best pinball machine I have ever played, and certainly top 3. Houdini is an awesome game, and because of it's difficultly, may actually end up staying longer in my collection than easier games.
Well said.
I bought DI LE for $7800 used only 2 months old $1200 savings.
I passed on AFM LE remake for $500 saving as I could still get one nib didn’t feel as if $500 was worth not buying new.
Grand Forks, ND
Quoted from Whysnow:6200 obo now
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-houdini-23#post-4498110
How low do they go? Only time will tell.
But what about the Dialed Ins selling at significant discounts as well? I linked to one that sold for $7500, a steeper discount percentage wise than a $6200 Houdini.
Quoted from delt31:There is something off with how the flippers feel like a delay or something. I'm not the only one who's felt that - Nick on Buffalo Pinball mentioned the same.
Nick also said there was no choreography for the trunk catapult launch so his review of the game went right out the window as far as I'm concerned. I have a pretty decent variety of manufacturer and eras in my collection including Stern, WPC, WPC95, JJP, Capcom, Bally and Houdini and I certainly don't notice anything wrong with the flippers except in very rare instances for one flip or so, and it's always the left. I suspect it is PROC related because the mechs are standard Williams / Bally parts and I'm hoping they can figure it out and fix it with code. I think Whitestar games have much worse flipper feel and fade than Houdini does.
Quoted from bobukcat:Nick also said there was no choreography for the trunk catapult launch so his review of the game went right out the window as far as I'm concerned.
That was the most lame review. If you're going to review a game you should have a clue what the f you're talking about. How about spend a little time on the machine? He was factually incorrect or at least ignorant of the game in several comments. The flippers feel different to be sure... but come on, there is no delay. Yet another dumb ass comment. Total crap review and a waste of time to listen.
They also referenced the Josh Sharpe review on head2head. I'll cut him some slack because he wasn't there to do an in depth review of Houdini but his comment about the callouts completely take you out of the theme was just silly. Houdini is one of those rare games where the modes actually mean something other than shoot these flashing lights and then shoot these flashing lights. The Houdini callouts explain what you are doing to execute an illusion or perform an escape. The announcer is instructing you to move the elephant up the ramp, loading and aiming the gun, shedding handcuffs, spinning the water wheel with the spinner, chipping Houdini out of ice, etc.
If you don't like the chatty nature of the game, that's a valid opinion. But at least play the game enough times to do an honest review.
Quoted from Parzival:But what about the Dialed Ins selling at significant discounts as well? I linked to one that sold for $7500, a steeper discount percentage wise than a $6200 Houdini.
There was also a Houdini for 5400 the other day, but I tend to look at the averages and ignore the 1-offs till there are a few sales. 1-0ffs are often extenuating circumstances. Multiples show a trend; e.g. Houdini is trending to 6k quickly since none are moving at current asking prices of 6200, 6250, and 6400.
DiLe seems to still be trending at 8k currently, which considering the original price if you shopped around, is a minimal discount but people are still buying at that price point. It may drop more on second time secondary sales, as everyone tend to be comfortable with some amount of loss on a high dollar game.
I think that is why houdini has dropped so quickly and continues to drop. Lots of sales and resales as the game does not seem to stick for many people.
Original buyer gets in at 7000, but sells for 6500. next buyer gets in at 6500 and sells for 6000, and the trend continues. At some point the secondary settles out IME and the people that buy at XXXX finally decide that is the price point worth just keeping. I still see houdini trending to the NIB Stern pro pricepoint in the next 3-9months before settling out. May take another dip after that or may go back up (sometimes happens if production stops on a game, but I think houdini gets made forever???
Quoted from Whysnow:There was also a Houdini for 5400 the other day, but I tend to look at the averages and ignore the 1-offs till there are a few sales. 1-0ffs are often extenuating circumstances. Multiples show a trend; e.g. Houdini is trending to 6k quickly since none are moving at current asking prices of 6200, 6250, and 6400.
DiLe seems to still be trending at 8k currently, which considering the original price if you shopped around, is a minimal discount but people are still buying at that price point. It may drop more on second time secondary sales, as everyone tend to be comfortable with some amount of loss on a high dollar game.
I think that is why houdini has dropped so quickly and continues to drop. Lots of sales and resales as the game does not seem to stick for many people.
Original buyer gets in at 7000, but sells for 6500. next buyer gets in at 6500 and sells for 6000, and the trend continues. At some point the secondary settles out IME and the people that buy at XXXX finally decide that is the price point worth just keeping. I still see houdini trending to the NIB Stern pro pricepoint in the next 3-9months before settling out. May take another dip after that or may go back up (sometimes happens if production stops on a game, but I think houdini gets made forever???
You keep repeating yourself.
You judge a game by its price more than its factor of fun and challenge. We get it.
Quoted from RTS:You keep repeating yourself.
You judge a game by its price more than its factor of fun and challenge. We get it.
not at all. I have played Houdini extensively on 4 or 5 different iterations (probably more than most people TBT). I evaluated it for purchase based solely on its fun factor, gameplay, and challenge.
Money means little to me in the grand scheme of funny money allocated to toys.
This is all just observation on the facts of sales price and I think it is fun to objectively watch the collectible pinball market, esp on some of the high dollar games. It is fun to make hypotheses on what will happen based on my assessments of fun/perceived value of a game and then see if others agree/disagree and if they vote accordingly with their dollars.
I am sorry if you find this difficult to stomach as a Houdini owner and defender, but the facts of sales price and games sitting unsold are just that, facts.
It is entirely separate from your personal reality of liking the game. The majority of the community has shown with their wallets where things are trending on this one. In this case my hypothesis seems right.
Dialed In is a much more enjoyable pinball machine. One of the best pins to come out in the last 20 years. Houdini is just not very good.
Quoted from Whysnow:Im sorry if you find this difficult to stomach as a Houdini owner and defender, but the facts of sales price and games sitting unsold are just that, facts.
I did not defend Houdini in my post.
I was making a comment that you focused only on the prices, because you repeatedly posted Houdin ads, rather than make an argument for DI.
Disregarding theme, DI suffers from the randomness of the sim shot and the formulaic journey. I still like DI. The rules of Houdini make it a better game. Both have good layouts.
But I read a lot of your blather, and you're not really talking about actually playing the games.
Quoted from RTS:I did not defend
Disregarding theme, DI suffers from the randomness of the sim shot and the formulaic journey. I still like DI. The rules of Houdini make it a better game. Both have good layouts.
But I read a lot of your blather, and you're not really talking about actually playing the games.
Because the price reflects opinion on value which reflects opinion on gameplay. Most do not agree with your assessment of dialed in being a formulaic journey. Some hate the sim, many do not. Most agree that Houdini is a lesser game. Both are lowering in price, which is now the new norm, but Houdini appears to be tanking a little harder. Please revisit the poll if you see my post as blather.
Quoted from RTS:and you're not really talking about actually playing the games.
I was asked by others to not discuss Houdini lack of play quality.
Flippers are weak, build quality is poor, shots are too tight (when you have to shave down oblong targets just to make things fit on the right side and need 2 sitches in a single lane o the left... you make a poor design/layout) and dont feel fun to hit, catapult rarely works on all versions I have played (despite always being told it is "just those route games" if it does not make it 80% of the time on multiple iterations then it just aint good), and the code does all it can to save the game but you can only do so much to put lipstick on a pig (code really is fantastic! but the layout and flipper issues just cant be fixed).
DI on the other hand is one of the best laid out games of all time! Shots feel butter smooth, lots of physical risk v reward, great diverters and interesting shots/features that actually work, and some fun code that really pulls you into the theme and balances the physical game very well. I find it to be the exact right amount of challenge and reward. It is Pat Lawlors best game to date and if they has just named it better and themed it as armagedon (all the disaster themes combined with nostaligia of ES, WW, etc...) then it would be a home run. Despite the poor theming and public perception poorly managed at release, the game is a blockbuster title that has proven to be a slow burn.
To bring this all back to pricing. The secondary market prices reflect this gameplay/quality/lastability for each respective title.
I wish it was not the case and DI was changing hands for 30% discount as I would pick one up myself for home 
Quoted from rai:Maybe me calling it a mess was hyperbole, but the shoots are too tight (IMO).
Maybe I'm kicking the hornets nest, but I just felt like Houdini is almost great but not quite there (for me).
Houdini would have made an all time classic as a Widebody game.
Köln
Quoted from Whysnow:date and if they has just named it better and themed it as armagedon
what is it about the title and theme of DI that cause so many people to feel the need to express their dislike on Pinside? I just don’t get it. Is it because it is not based on a Marvel comic ? Is it not epic enough? I find the title a delightful play on words and the theme clever, goofy and excellent - what more could a pinhead ask for (except another comic book theme, maybe).
Otherwise I’m right there with you.
I’ve never even seen a Houdini so maybe that disqualifies me from this thread ?
Quoted from branlon8:what is it about the title and theme of DI that cause so many people to feel the need to express their dislike on Pinside? I just don’t get it. Is it because it is not based on a Marvel comic ? Is it not epic enough? I find the title a delightful play on words and the theme clever, goofy and excellent - what more could a pinhead ask for (except another comic book theme, maybe).
Otherwise I’m right there with you.
oh, I agree. I always thought DI was a cool theme, but for whatever reason it did not do well and everyone focuses on the phone theme. With a little better market research they could have easily realized there was a better way to get the same vibe with better branding/marketing.
Quoted from branlon8:what is it about the title and theme of DI that cause so many people to feel the need to express their dislike on Pinside? I just don’t get it. Is it because it is not based on a Marvel comic ? Is it not epic enough? I find the title a delightful play on words and the theme clever, goofy and excellent - what more could a pinhead ask for (except another comic book theme, maybe).
I find it to be MEH. Kind of like a dated video game for kids.
Just my honest personal opinion.
Quoted from Rondogg:Houdini would have made an all time classic as a Widebody game.
I recall owning XM and everyone was doing ramp post mod to swap rubber rings with skinny post plastics, to make the shot tolerable and people doing something with Wolverine to open the shot up. IMO those things were to releave too many brick shots. I’m aware DI has some especially the side ramp that I can hardly make but by and large the shots on DI are super, even the SIM is fine because it’s not easy shot but very rewarding kind of perfect difficulty for rewards.
Quoted from Whysnow:oh, I agree. I always thought DI was a cool theme, but for whatever reason it did not do well and everyone focuses on the phone theme. With a little better market research they could have easily realized there was a better way to get the same vibe with better branding/marketing.
This. I've been perplexed by this since release. They could have asked 10 pinheads and would have realized the guy holding the phone should not be the centerpiece, and the name needed to be changed. Even quantum city would have resonated better. Personally, I like it the way it is, but the name Armageddon with an evil looking cell phone creator/tech as a centerpiece enemy on the pf and BG would have been epic. This would have created a better contrast with "a day in quantum city." Game's still awesome.
Quoted from branlon8:what is it about the title and theme of DI that cause so many people to feel the need to express their dislike on Pinside?
Where you around when WOZ came out? Wow that was a shit show that makes the whole "mom jeans" thing pretty tame 
I have no idea though. It seems half the people upset are too old to use a cell phone, and the other half "play pinball to get away from their cell phone" which , whatever it's all weird shit.
Always thought it was going to be a disaster game, I think most people that know things aboot designers thought it was going to be a disaster game; and it is.
Quoted from rai:I’m aware DI has some especially the side ramp that I can hardly make but by and large the shots on DI are super, even the SIM is fine because it’s not easy shot but very rewarding kind of perfect difficulty for rewards.
I find the side ramp to be the easiest side ramp in all of pinball. If you think that one's tough, try ww or STTNG! I make DI's side ramp at least 50% of the time.
Quoted from Tranquilize:I find the side ramp to be the easiest side ramp in all of pinball.
I know if you turn the flipper power down it's easier to make the SIM which is what some people do. But yeah, never heard of trouble hitting that ramp.
Quoted from Rondogg:Houdini would have made an all time classic as a Widebody game.
Couldn't agree more with this. Could you imagine? I think it could be "game of the year" as a widebody. Damn.
Quoted from Whysnow:I wish it was not the case and DI was changing hands for 30% discount as I would pick one up myself for home
We actually agree on this point. DI is 30% overpriced.
Quoted from RTS:We actually agree on this point. DI is 30% overpriced.
Well they spared no expense on parts is the reason why. When I unpacked it, I had to take off a large quarter-inch thick powder-coated metal slab that was used to cover the male connectors for the plug. That's a piece I'm not going to use again until I haul it to a new location, if at all. If they put that much care and effort into a small useless piece, imagine how the rest of it is. The thing is built with the highest quality I've ever seen. You get what you pay for with this one.
Quoted from RTS:We actually agree on this point. DI is 30% overpriced.
Sadly over priced for us seems price right for the majority based on sales/secondary holding steady.
I will have a personal one someday.
I played both Houdini and Dialed In at the new pinball parlor at Moms Organic Market in College Park, Md. (yes, theres a pinball room inside the grocery store). I thought Dialed In was pretty inventive and had awesome flow. I love the Houdini theme but it was bad...really bad...a complete clunker in my opinion.
Quoted from BrewersArcade:I played both Houdini and Dialed In at the new pinball parlor at Moms Organic Market in College Park, Md. (yes, theres a pinball room inside the grocery store). I thought Dialed In was pretty inventive and had awesome flow. I love the Houdini theme but it was bad...really bad...a complete clunker in my opinion.
What other pins do they have?
Quoted from Whysnow:I was asked by others to not discuss Houdini lack of play quality.
Flippers are weak, build quality is poor, shots are too tight (when you have to shave down oblong targets just to make things fit on the right side and need 2 sitches in a single lane o the left... you make a poor design/layout) and dont feel fun to hit, catapult rarely works on all versions I have played (despite always being told it is "just those route games" if it does not make it 80% of the time on multiple iterations then it just aint good), and the code does all it can to save the game but you can only do so much to put lipstick on a pig (code really is fantastic! but the layout and flipper issues just cant be fixed).
I bought a NIB Houdini last week, and have a different opinion. The build quality seems decent (as good or better than the NIB sterns I've owned). Shots for me are just the right amount of difficult to keep me interested. Combos are difficult and very satisfying. No chronic issues with my catapults. Very happy owner.
One day I may pick up a JJP title but it's not going to be Dialed In (the game rubs me the wrong way, so it's not for me but I understand why it's a fun game) and probably won't be POTC either. It's good to see other companies making games besides just Stern.
Quoted from gliebig:What other pins do they have?
It’s pretty amazing...I think 30 pins total...
Centaur
Guardians
Batman 66
TNA
Ghostbusters Premium
EBD
Star Wars
ACDC
Etc etc.
It’s impressive and all are nicely maintained
Quoted from Whysnow:Sadly over priced for us seems price right for the majority based on sales/secondary holding steady.
What majority are you talkin' bout Willis?
DI owners are a fragment of the market. But yeah, out of DI owners, they are a full 100% majority of DI owners.
3 months later
Now that us in Australia have Houdini, I've had the opportunity to play my friends machine for quite some time.
Build quality is sensational. Gameplay unfortunately for me isn't really there.
I found the layout very challenging. Almost like it wasn't thought out thoroughly.
Anyhoo-
I'd go Dialled in in this case.
Quoted from Riffbear:Now that us in Australia have Houdini, I've had the opportunity to play my friends machine for quite some time.
Build quality is sensational. Gameplay unfortunately for me isn't really there.
I found the layout very challenging. Almost like it wasn't thought out thoroughly.
Anyhoo-
I'd go Dialled in in this case.
They didn't whitewood. I hope they have since changed their strategy.
Quoted from Whysnow:There was also a Houdini for 5400 the other day, but I tend to look at the averages and ignore the 1-offs till there are a few sales. 1-0ffs are often extenuating circumstances. Multiples show a trend; e.g. Houdini is trending to 6k quickly since none are moving at current asking prices of 6200, 6250, and 6400.
DiLe seems to still be trending at 8k currently, which considering the original price if you shopped around, is a minimal discount but people are still buying at that price point. It may drop more on second time secondary sales, as everyone tend to be comfortable with some amount of loss on a high dollar game.
I think that is why houdini has dropped so quickly and continues to drop. Lots of sales and resales as the game does not seem to stick for many people.
Original buyer gets in at 7000, but sells for 6500. next buyer gets in at 6500 and sells for 6000, and the trend continues. At some point the secondary settles out IME and the people that buy at XXXX finally decide that is the price point worth just keeping. I still see houdini trending to the NIB Stern pro pricepoint in the next 3-9months before settling out. May take another dip after that or may go back up (sometimes happens if production stops on a game, but I think houdini gets made forever???
I will disagree with your numbers. I know of two Houdini’s which sold in 62-64 in past three weeks and 2 DILE for 72 and 7500.
Quoted from Pinphila:I will disagree with your numbers. I know of two Houdini’s which sold in 62-64 in past three weeks and 2 DILE for 72 and 7500.
Where did you see huo dile for 7200-7500? You should have bought them, that’s a great price. Most go for around $8k on average.
This one has radcals and pf protector for $7950, which is a very good deal.
This topic was revived? Sweet.
I own Dialed In but when making the purchase, I reeaaallllllyyyy wanted Houdini. It looks great, sounds great, and the humor is fun too. The only reason I didn't get it is because I never played it, and some really good pinball friends of mine told me the shots were frustrating vs Dialed In, which had very satisfying shots. So I got a Dialed In.
Fast forward to about 2 months ago, I finally got my chance at a Houdini on site. I played it maybe 10 times, and sure enough, the shots were maddening. I nailed a few early on and thought "oh wow, why is everyone complaining? This is great!", and then realized after several more games that I just got lucky. After my last game, I just wasn't into it as much as I thought I would be and I left.
Dialed In wins! (It's great btw... best pin ever imo).
Quoted from Pinphila:I will disagree with your numbers. I know of two Houdini’s which sold in 62-64 in past three weeks and 2 DILE for 72 and 7500.
You can disagree all you want...
But until you link em up, nobody will believe you.
Looks like I was spot on with my prediction of quickly trending to and below 6k. I would guess it continues on down to 5500 in short order.
He is the Houdini links.
Sitting at 6200 obo
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/69057
Pending at 5999 asking
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/69653
Not let's see these DILEs for what you say they sold for...
My local pinball bar of choice just switched out its DI with a JJP Pirates.
Good riddance. Still love Houdini!
Quoted from Whysnow:You can disagree all you want...
But until you link em up, nobody will believe you.
Looks like I was spot on with my prediction of quickly trending to and below 6k. I would guess it continues on down to 5500 in short order.
He is the Houdini links.
Sitting at 6200 obo
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/69057
Pending at 5999 asking
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/69653
Not let's see these DILEs for what you say they sold for...
With full Cliffy kit, side blades, new power supply etc this Is basically 5500.
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