Alternate way to say this: stuff happens when you engineer new designs. Sometimes they have to change. cargument: https://www.hotcars.com/10-problems-every-bmw-owner-should-know-about-and-10-for-audi-owners/

I agree stuff happens, just think it's a poor comparison to compare a team of 3-4 engineers to the same level as huge teams of engineers working with the latest design tech.

I don't have a lot of time playing Houdini (and don't own it) but did play it a few times at shows. I consider myself a decent "player" although I don't play in tournaments. That being said there were at least 2 shots that were nearly impossible to hit reliably. It was like going to a carnival trying to knock all the milk bottles over. Speed ahead to this thread (2 years later) and its interesting to hear people talking about geometry.

RZ has a few weirdo "X" targets on the upper right that used in a few timed modes. 1 you can kinda-sorta hit but if its not perfect it bricks out. The other target is just not possible to hit with a flipper. You have to rely on a random sling to ricochet into it.

Super frustrating and I sold my RZ - not just for those targets but a plethora of other things.

My learning experience from this was not to run out pre-order or buy a new game from a new company. There's always a show to play these games prior to plopping down 7-large for the newest toy. If you buy new you will loose some money reselling down the road. No one expects to loose 2 grand on a game that is still in production.

Cabinet is amazing. I really love how the display and backbox looks. I don't think the announcer is that bad but do think you should be able to skip through all the trivia and long animations. I didn't mind it so much the handful of times I played but I can see it getting old in a home environment after a bunch of plays.

There are 2 shots you have to change your approach to in order to his reliably - the “milk can” shot requires a VERY light touch of the button right at the end of the right flipper. It is HARD, and the game rewards you for hitting it.

The other I imagine you are referring to is the inner loop shot - this one just seems way harder than it is

If an experienced player can hardly hit these then a casual player will never hit them. They are poorly designed or untested shots.

I've owned several BMW's. I've owned several JJP pins.

Both are expensive and both break down.

It's a valid cargument, y'all.

This is not 100% accurate because they did replace my stage mech outside of warranty and have helped me with a couple other things too, I know of at least one other owner that has had the same experience. I think making people pay for the upgraded power supply was bullshit, even if it did include a credit for full value for other products - that's kind of like getting paid with company store credits. (Is this the first "coal-gument ever???) But overall I think their support is pretty great.

I understand that many people don't like the way the game shoots, I'm not trying to change their minds, but I've had mine for over a year and it still gets more play than anything else in my collection, I think it is a challenging blast to play. Reversed/inverted flippers, Seance MB, Man From Beyond light show, etc. are all just really well done as far as I'm concerned.

So maybe it's more Jaguar than BMW

You've been able to double-flipper skip through intros and long animations with newer code for at least six months. The animations still play but the audio cuts out and the ball is back in play which is all that really matters because you don't need any information that's on the screen at that time anyway.

Casual and even many experienced players can never hit the borg lock shot on STTNG either, does that mean it was untested and poorly designed or just a hard MF-ing shot?

The handful of times I've called Stern tech support, they've never asked if I'm the original owner. One time I wasn't even the owner. I was borrowing a game from a friend, an LE-specific part crapped out, and they mailed a replacement no questions asked, well outside the warranty period. I find them very reasonable if you're polite and patient.

All this bitching from people with too much time on their hands and here I am just enjoying my Houdini. Buddy was over last night, loves it too. Granted I am in it for 5k and had to do a bit of work to it, but I like working on things. Unlike a lot of the diaper wiper who think it has to be perfect (favorite was someone passed on trading my lotr without seeing pics, my only description was I don't believe it is huo, but it has no flipper wear) some of us remember that these are commercial equipment designed to be beat on.

They were never intended to be collectibles originally (although stern keeps trying to change that mentality). They were never intended to hold their value. So the notion that a game takes a 2k hit after a year on route? Who cares, did the op make money? For the nib buyer maybe actually play a game before you throw money at a company. Better yet for the people who buy a game, put 20 games on it and then sell it, maybe learn to play what you buy. Might even get your money's worth for once.

As for the people complaining its too hard? Well, play it first and decide if you can put your big boy pants on, or stick to the same old layout stern keeps rehashing and play from memory. Either way, the notion that every game needs to feel the same is bs. The game has tight shots, some people enjoy that and some people don't. They are not impossible, they are not even the hardest shots in pinball either (looking at you guile shot on sf2).

How much work did this almost brand new game need?!

Yup.

Possibly THE MOST rewarding shot to make it pinball, clearly I love impossible, poorly designed and untested pinball geometry - thank God (or at least Steve Ritchie and Joe Balcer) for making those available to me.

At this point pops still need to be adjusted as they do not work. One of the pop bumper lock toppers was off, they had lost the screws that held it on and at one point shoved toothpicks wrapped in tape inside it. Slings were out of adjustment and not working, few switches were not working, had to adjust the catapult coils, was pretty dirty and will get torn down at some point, had to replace a fair bit of rubber that was tearing, and there were a few other things I had to deal with under the playfield.

Honestly, comparing how it faired on free play at a pay to enter arcade I was impressed. The Rob Zombie I picked up that had been routed was in far rougher shape. Had been told it was fully working and it had numerous issues. Multiple broken wires off coils, the chicken lighting wires were broken, the shaker motor had a blown fuse, a number of switches just not working (out of adjustment or bad), cabinet was rougher (although still not bad by any means), broken shooter plastic (which I had to melt and bend the replacement) and the inside of the cabinet needed a fair bit of cleaning out. Houdini wasn't advertised as 100 percent, the rob zombie had been, but frankly both got dealt with and worked out in the end.

Not at all. STTNG Borg shot is definitely tough but not impossible. The game is a masterpiece in flow and still highly collectable 26 later. We'll have to wait to see how Houdini ferments over time.

Even for not owning the game and playing it at shows, I gave it a favorable rating here of 8 something. Its one of the most gorgeous looking games out there for sure. Just has a few kinks IMO.

I love Houdini and I don't find the shots overly difficult to make. The hardest shot for me is the Milkcan shot but who cares... it's there for someday when I can aim off the tip of the flipper. I don't have a problem with the lock shot that everyone else bitches about - easy peasy to get to Trunk Multiball on most games. There are Stern shots that are just as hard and just as narrow as the lock shot - such as the right ramp on KISS - go measure it yourself instead of running with the group think on this bash thread. End of the day, it's not the same old flow game. It's definitely stop and go but you have to hurry as most of the modes are timed.

Okay, so Volkswagen then.....

As a BMW owner this analogy = Crap. Build Quality right? also crap. JJP and Stern both have the same amount of technical flaws the reason Stern seems like the greater is because they are. JJP is a boutique manufacturer and while they sell a lot of games 1 every 2 years is quite different than 6 or more with vaults and niche games like Primus.

I bought my daughter a used X5...never again.......

Re that car-analogy — a lot of people have the view that if something costs “more” then it is automatically “better”

My life experiences have proved that is generally not the case.

Marketeers loooove to use that theory on consumers though.

I could give you plenty of examples, being an ex retailer ... but I’ll just tell the story of how my connected Chinese buddy got me a genuine Louis Vuitton $3500 NZD handbag from his buddies factory for the same price Louis Vuitton pay for them. $100 USD. The other $3000 is “idiot tax”. Lol

rd

Well to be fair, at least a bit of that overhead is paying for the massive marketing campaign to convince the world that a fuggly-ass purse with gold letters stamped all over it is somehow desireable. Without that who would buy it at $100, let alone $3,000?

Excellent Louis Vuittongument.

This also explains certain exclusive pinball prices.

Nope...from first hand experience. They have been nothing less than stellar for me. 100% satisfied.

Yeh, most AP owners would agree. All one has to do is read the Houdini thread to see the level of customer engagement and willingness to help customers regardless of whether or not they are in the warranty period.

Acnc will drop fast also.

Are you speaking from experience? How do you know their warranty is very rigid? Did they deny you a repair? Do you even own the game?

Soooo. You are saying i could get a houdini cheap right now...

It’s a new thing!!

That was the subtext of what I was saying.

rd

Preach Bob! Brazy hits the milkcan like it’s his job and he’s terrible at pinball!

Evidently lots of people ...

Their business model is something like:

Bag cost - $100

Marketing and free shit given to “influencers” - guess $100 a bag (total spent divided by bags sold)

Over the top store - guess $100 per bag (annual rent divided by bags sold)

Pocket the rest.

As long as the market buys into it, a good earner ...

Remember - if you say something enough times, it eventually becomes “a thing”. Lots of examples of that in play today!

rd

.. So your buddy runs a Chinese countifitter business; fairs enough

That has been suggested in this thread but mine isn't going anywhere.

No ... his buddy makes the real bags. Or parts of them. Dunno, never met him.

You can get the good quality knockoff ones (which most people wouldn’t know were fakes) in the back streets of Shanghai or Hong Kong for $20-40 USD. These are the ones that get seized by customs if they show up at a port overseas.

Funny story - me and my buddy were in Shanghai back in about 2005 I guess. This guy comes up and says “you want copy watch? You want copy bag?” So .. game for adventure we say “what you got?” He leads us down this alleyway ... we walk into a house ... through the lounge, through the kitchen, with Mom cooking the dinner, into this little room out the back. It was all set up like a shop inside. Anyway, I got a fake LV bag for the Mrs for like $40, and my buddy got a fake Rolex for like $30 from memory. Just for shits and giggles.

Fast forward half a year, we were in Hawaii (as you are) and we just mucking around and we go into the LV store. The clerks saw the fake $40 LV bag the Mrs had, and were like “wow! Can we see your bag?” ... they checked it all out and said “wow! Never seen one of those before! They haven’t come out here yet!” Even fooled those guys.

My mates fake $30 Rolex is still going - the little small dials in the middle never worked from the start, strictly for decoration only ... but the watch is still cranking all these years later.

rd

I have seen quite a few for sale recently. This is probably the time to get them.

Not quite sure you got my point. It really could have been MB or Audi Instead of BMW also. I just randomly chose BMW.

Anyway I don't have a BMW now but my 4 year, 4 month old Audi with 30,000 miles (yes I don't drive a lot) had an airbag fail last week and cost me $850. Didn't blow or anything. The airbag light came on. Yeah. So you can see where I am coming from on German "quality" from a higher priced vehicle. But I love my Audi so I just pay and move on.

Jeep is a different vehicle then those Germam cars. Lower cost, less complex and less bells and whistles, but both BMW and Jeep get you around. And folks love their Jeeps! They break and folks fix them.

And folks don't get Jeeps and folks can't justify the costs of BMW's. Don't you want a ton of features in your car?! Why would you spend so much on a complicated vehicle that you can't take off road?! Back and forth - Kinda like Stern and JJP, blah blah bah......

So the bagument would work for pinball if your buddy has a little room with a shop selling $300 knock off MUN's and WOZ's.

Wait you have over 100 pins?! How did you get all of.........ahhhhhh

like this one ...

spooky is doing things right.

Nope. I see casuals hitting them all the time on the route machine because they do not have the muscle memory that is messing up the shot for experienced players shooting for where their ingrained memory tells them the fan shot should be. More experience is actually an impediment on Houdini. Casuals that play it exclusively on the route I help with do quite well on it.

A few threads or this one in particular? Again, you have no first hand experience. I would guarantee the amount of original owners and seconds who have received warranty repairs outside warranty far exceeds this one guy. Go read the Houdini thread before making this accusation.

How is the power supply issue lame? The majority of owners don’t need it. And if you do, you get that money back in credit. I don’t see jjp doing that with light boards.

If you say so.

I had seven consecutive three-year leases on BMW convertibles, the last of which ended this month. In that period of time, I also BOUGHT two used BMWs, an M3 and a 645--both also convertibles. Given my profession, I have dozens of colleagues with BMWs and came to know many of these cars, as well. My take: BMWs are STELLAR during the first three years. BMWs are TERRIBLE during years 4-6 or 7. After that, they seem to settle down and become at least acceptable risks until their death at twenty years old, or more.

If any modern game came out with a left outlane like a factory STTNG has they would be crucified. I still can't believe they let that out of the factory. Even Steve Ritchie recommends modifying the outlane.

I’m curious why you chose to lease vs buying? Did you get favorable rates on it, or was it the convenience factor?

Ah maybe pins need to be tweaked and adjusted the first year or so of ownership and then realiabitliy settles in for a fair number of years after? On location may be different though as the games really get played hard and the 2+ year mark may be more trying.

I’m all about convenience. Pay for only gas and tires. Get a convenient quick BMW loaner every service appointment. And after 3 years, it’s Not My Problem. I like a new car often. And if I want to buy the damn thing, I still can, but depreciation also isn’t my problem. The fact that I never bought one off-lease would indicate that BMW lost every depreciation “bet,” which is part of every lease.