(Topic ID: 236185)

Houdini ...... talk about taking a nose dive


By hoby1

9 months ago



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  • 345 posts
  • 123 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by yancy
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 345 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 7.
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#151 8 months ago
Quoted from Guinnesstime:

Because losing money sucks.

Pinball is the only “high-end” hobby I am aware of where the prevailing expectation seems to be to “have the cake and eat it too”! For example, no one in the audiophile or astronomy hobbies (where lots of stuff costs as much or more than a NIB pin and is equally frivolous in the grand scheme of things) expects to break even, let alone profit, from the sale of anything they bought NIB.

If you enjoyed the game while you owned it, then you really didn’t “lose” anything, you simply spent some money to have a good time! If you don’t see the “value” in this, then I’d respectfully suggest that you may end up chronically frustrated by pinball, because it is going to end up adding net stress to your life rather than being a fun, escapist, healthy means of enjoying life for a moment and RELIEVING stress.

(I don’t think I’d feel bad about selling Houdini for a $1000 “loss” after a year. My family and I would have had a year’s worth of fun playing the game and enjoying the aesthetic enhancements its design and lighting would bring to the room, easily worth the roughly $3/day.)

#152 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Cars are not pinball machines. Always the fatal flaw in a cargument

Quoted from yancy:

Going to hop on my pro-cargument soapbox.

Houdini's averaging about one mention per page in this thread. At least we've moved on from JJP v. Stern to a meta-analysis of the cargument.

#153 8 months ago
Quoted from Thermionic:

For example, no one in the audiophile or astronomy hobbies (where lots of stuff costs as much or more than a NIB pin and is equally frivolous in the grand scheme of things) expects to break even, let alone profit, from the sale of anything they bought NIB.

Audiogument! Astrogument!

#154 8 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Houdini's averaging about one mention per page in this thread. At least we've moved on from JJP v. Stern to a meta-analysis of the cargument.

There’s no debate - some people saw it once and got a brick or heard a little rattle and got scared off. Others actually played the game

#155 8 months ago

I spent 8k for my hobbit direct from JJP. I think it going for between 1 and 1.5K less for HUO isn't bad. The ones buying NIB at 8.5 or 9 take a big hit for sure. I think there is good news bad news with hobbit. Due to the love it hate it feelings the prices are a bit lower on the second hand market. If you like the game it is great deal and amazing game for sub 7k. However if you are an owner of a NIB and want to sell it is going to hurt a bit. Great game in my opinion, I really like it.

#156 8 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

Going to hop on my pro-cargument soapbox. Sometimes a car analogy works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a food analogy works. I don't see anyone clutch their pearls and yell "foodgument!" when someone compares a JJP CE to a steak and a Stern pro to a hamburger.
If anything, a car is almost too close a value comparison to a pin (especially these days), which forces people to clarify that no, in fact, a pinball machine is not a car. No shit Sherlock, that's why language provides analogies.

This is not a valid analogy. It’s a fallacy.

You pro cargumenters just keep the ruse going however.

Almost 100 percent of cars will experience 100 percent depreciation over 20 years. Couldn’t be a more apples and oranges fallacy.

That’s before you even get into the fact that a car is a completely different product with a completely different purpose and uses than a pinball machine.

The ONLY THING a car has in common with a pinball machine is that it is a thing you can buy and sell that contains plastic and steel. Pretty sorry basis for an “analogy.”

You need to brush up on your detective skills, Sherlock!

11
#157 8 months ago

Remember that time o-din made a couchgument? Good times.

#158 8 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

Going to hop on my pro-cargument soapbox. Sometimes a car analogy works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a food analogy works. I don't see anyone clutch their pearls and yell "foodgument!" when someone compares a JJP CE to a steak and a Stern pro to a hamburger.
If anything, a car is almost too close a value comparison to a pin (especially these days), which forces people to clarify that no, in fact, a pinball machine is not a car. No shit Sherlock, that's why language provides analogies.

This makes less than no sense whatsoever.

Do you know how much value cars lose over time?

Have you looked at historical price guides of pinball machines and see how many people yearn for the "good old days" when NGG was like $1300 new?

These are complete opposites.

#159 8 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Remember that time o-din made a couchgument? Good times.

I thought he only did burritoguments

#160 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I thought he only did burritoguments

He tried branching out...some say that's what lead to his demise.

#161 8 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

He tried branching out...some say that's what lead to his demise.

How is it possible he isn't back yet? He lives for this shit!

23
#162 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

How is it possible he isn't back yet? He lives for this shit!

He went to a car forum and is making pinguments.

#163 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

How is it possible he isn't back yet? He lives for this shit!

His job is to give us all hope.

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#164 8 months ago

I wasn't defending that particular cargument, nimrods. (I agree with you, it was wrong!) I took issue with Levi's blanket assertion that all carguments are inherently invalid. Reading comprehension, it's a thing.

#165 8 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Butch - how long did you own the Houdini? It must have been a year ago

I didn't have it for very long. It was right around the York show. Had a lot of interest in it at the show but ended up taking it home and selling it not too long after

#166 8 months ago
Quoted from ectobar:

How many coils does it have?

No that’s not it. He didn’t properly secure the shooter lane.

#167 8 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

I wasn't defending that particular cargument, nimrods. (I agree with you, it was wrong!) I took issue with Levi's blanket assertion that all carguments are inherently invalid. Reading comprehension, it's a thing.

If you ever spot a valid cargument, please post it here, as I'd love to finally see one after all these years.

Hint: carguments comparing cars to guns, cigarettes, the confederate flag, and pinball machines are all invalid.

I'm an open-minded guy! If I see a cargument that holds water, I'll fess up to it.

#168 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

If you ever spot a valid cargument, please post it here, as I'd love to finally see one after all these years.
Hint: carguments comparing cars to guns, cigarettes, the confederate flag, and pinball machines are all invalid.

My 2002 Honda Civic can fairly be compared to a cigarette at this point. It's a consumable, it smells bad, and my neighbors think I'm devaluing the block when I leave it on the curb. Yet I just can't seem to quit it ...

#169 8 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

My 2002 Honda Civic can fairly be compared to a cigarette at this point. It's a consumable, it smells bad, and my neighbors think I'm devaluing the block when I leave it on the curb. Yet I just can't seem to quit it ...

Seems pretty legit...what say you Levi?

19
#170 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

That’s before you even get into the fact that a car is a completely different product with a completely different purpose and uses than a pinball machine

It’s not the CAR thats the same as a pinball machine - it’s the community that’s exactly the same.

I know you don’t have a car Levi (neither would I if I lived in NYC) but the “NIB” car guys are exactly the same as the NIB pin guys. If you check out the car forums, it’s all the same shit! Identical.

The level of super-analness of some of these guys is identical. Matching numbers! Wax it every day! Never use it! Might get a scratch!

Always my personal favourite... seen in both cars and pinballs ..

“What are the ‘must have mods?’”

Get a new thing, glue shit all over it.

Must be a middle age man thing - they can’t play with LEGO any more, so buying trinkets and gluing them to things is the old guy substitute.

rd

#171 8 months ago
Quoted from Thermionic:

the prevailing expectation seems to be to “have the cake and eat it too”!

Can we substitute pie for cake? I love pinball and pie.

#172 8 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

It’s not the CAR thats the same as a pinball machine - it’s the community that’s exactly the same.

Except there's almost zero chance these idiots can crash their new pinball machine and entering a coma so I don't have to listen to their stupid shit anymore.

Naw just kidding everyone here's to your health!

#173 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

If you ever spot a valid cargument, please post it here, as I'd love to finally see one after all these years.

How about "don't expect your Joe Balcer game to hold its value any more than a Corolla."

#174 8 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

How about "don't expect your Joe Balcer game to hold its value any more than a Corolla."

See again...Toyota has actually made a good Corolla or 2...not the same!

#175 8 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Except there's almost zero chance these idiots can crash their new pinball machine and enter a coma so I don't have to listen to their stupid shit anymore.
Naw just kidding everyone here's to your health!

You must not enter the post pics of your new pin thread. People take selfies with their new to them pin all the time while driving.

#176 8 months ago
Quoted from Thermionic:

Pinball is the only “high-end” hobby I am aware of where the prevailing expectation seems to be to “have the cake and eat it too”! For example, no one in the audiophile or astronomy hobbies (where lots of stuff costs as much or more than a NIB pin and is equally frivolous in the grand scheme of things) expects to break even, let alone profit, from the sale of anything they bought NIB.

My take on this is because pinball is limited. Yeah, I know people rant and rave that 500 LE's isn't really limited yet alone 20,000 Flash machines. But in reality all pinball is limited. It is limited by how many produced, what area you live in. Time of year, how many people want to sell their games, How far you are willing to drive, how much you want to spend on shipping or if you are even willing to buy sight unseen. How much you can spend on a game. And last but not least, what's actually for sale. Simply put, Supply and demand.

Lets take a look at "Flash" 20,000 produced. I've decided I want one. Just checked the market and 0 are for sale. This is exactly what I mean. LIMITED!

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#177 8 months ago

Bobble post.

#178 8 months ago
Quoted from Monk:

You must not enter the post pics of your new pin thread. People take selfies with their new to them pin all the time while driving.

Haha; fair enough! There is hope then.

#179 8 months ago
Quoted from Skypilot:

Can we substitute pie for cake? I love pinball and pie.

I only buy pie NIB. But that's just me.

I'm sure there's good HUO pie out there though. Just be patient.

#180 8 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

It’s not the CAR thats the same as a pinball machine - it’s the community that’s exactly the same.
I know you don’t have a car Levi (neither would I if I lived in NYC) but the “NIB” car guys are exactly the same as the NIB pin guys. If you check out the car forums, it’s all the same shit! Identical.
The level of super-analness of some of these guys is identical. Matching numbers! Wax it every day! Never use it! Might get a scratch!
Always my personal favourite... seen in both cars and pinballs ..
“What are the ‘must have mods?’”
Get a new thing, glue shit all over it.
Must be a middle age man thing - they can’t play with LEGO any more, so buying trinkets and gluing them to things is the old guy substitute.
rd

Kind of the same thinking I had coming from the car "collector" world. In my view the Difference with the cargument theory is that cars have a Much longer cycle. Look at most Any car pre 1970 and odds are they Have increased over NIB value Today! Back then however, like pinball, they depreciated the second they were driven away. Heck even my 1970 Gremlin is worth more then it cost NIB and that entire AMC company turned to dust...

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#181 8 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Kind of the same thinking I had coming from the car "collector" world. In my view the Difference with the cargument theory is that cars have a Much longer cycle. Look at most Any car pre 1970 and odds are they Have increased over NIB value Today! Back then however, like pinball, they depreciated the second they were driven away. Heck even my 1970 Gremlin is worth more then it cost NIB and that entire AMC company turned to dust...
[quoted image]

Is that counting inflation?

It ain't a pinball argument without an inflation calculator!

I think we could agree the car survival rate is much lower than pinball machines as well?

#182 8 months ago

Let's get this thread back on track, what is the story with the playfield dimples on Houdini? What kind of wood are they using?

#183 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I think we could agree the car survival rate is much lower than pinball machines as well?

I think that would be an interesting thing to know. I would have no idea but based on percentage/production survival that might be an interesting fact. I will bet a LOT of pinball machines in history were destroyed based on how fast they were made back in the day. I personally suspect Houdini sales and values will bump up when the rush of new titles runs its coarse and the used market stabilizes a bit.

#184 8 months ago

Now, what is this thread about again? What kind of car Houdini used to go to JJP to pick up his new Hobbit?

#185 8 months ago

^ Great avatar.

#186 8 months ago
Quoted from Billy16:

Now, what is this thread about again? What kind of car Houdini used to go to JJP to pick up his new Hobbit?

JJP is doing a Houdini too?!

#187 8 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

can’t play with LEGO any more

Oh we play with it, RD, we just dont like people finding out...

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#188 8 months ago

Tight but findable

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#189 8 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Oh we play with it, RD, we just dont like people finding out...[quoted image]

Which model/item are those - those have great looking stands as well!

#190 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

If you ever spot a valid cargument, please post it here, as I'd love to finally see one after all these years.
Hint: carguments comparing cars to guns, cigarettes, the confederate flag, and pinball machines are all invalid.
I'm an open-minded guy! If I see a cargument that holds water, I'll fess up to it.

How is this Cargument

Sterns are like Jeeps. JJP's are like BMW's.

Jeeps are pretty durable, have less expensive parts, but less complex than a BMW on upkeep and repairs. They break down sometimes and have some quality issues here and there, but folks don't mind owning and fixing them because they love them. Jeeps are not as expensive as BMW's, but some say they are too high cost for what they are, they are fun as shit to drive though, but not for everyone.

BMW's are a performance vehicle, have more expensive parts, but may have some random repairs on some complicated German engineering stuff that you would not find in a Jeep. They break down sometimes and have some quality issues here and there, but folks don't mind owning and fixing them beacuse they love them. BMW's are not as low cost as Jeeps and some say too high cost for what they are, but they they are fun as shit to drive, but not for everyone.

Some BMW owners wonder why folks would own a Jeep being lower cost, stripped down and more simple!? Some Jeep owners wonder why folks would own a BWM being higher cost, too many extras and more complex?! But really the coolest folks are the drivers with a both a BMW and a Jeep in their garage. Or both JJP and Stern in their gamerooms.

Just my "Cargument" take

#191 8 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Oh we play with it, RD, we just dont like people finding out...[quoted image]

sadly they are too big to playwith
look great though

#192 8 months ago
Quoted from Dooskie:

From my viewpoint, you really need to be a good player to appreciate Houdini.

I am a so so player and I love Houdini I feel it is going to make me a better player.

It is funny my wife beats everybody on my other games and struggles with Houdini. Give her time.

I am not worried at all about my investment. the critics are full of bunk.

-1
#193 8 months ago

Stern games have better resale because people know stern stands behind their products. I’ve had playfields, prototype node boards replaced. AP doesn’t have a reputation yet, other than poor theme choices and a sub par rushed effort.

#194 8 months ago
Quoted from Msch:

Stern games have better resale because people know stern stands behind their products. I’ve had playfields, prototype node boards replaced. AP doesn’t have a reputation yet, other than poor theme choices and a sub par rushed effort.

AP also has a very rigid warranty period. Outside that period, you are SOL. Stern will often go outside their 60 day warranty on a case by case basis.

#195 8 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

AP also has a very rigid warranty period. Outside that period, you are SOL. Stern will often go outside their 60 day warranty on a case by case basis.

Does Stern honor warranty for second owners? AFAIK it is not transferrable

#196 8 months ago
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#197 8 months ago

Back to Houdini: It plummeted because most folks realized that, as beautiful as the game is, as cool as the cabinet head looks and as well-done as the code is, the game sucks donkey balls due to its BAD geometry and obvious lack of a whitewood stage. The effeminate announcer is also cringeworthy. Former NIB owner here.

#198 8 months ago
Quoted from pinlawyer:

the game sucks donkey balls due to its BAD geometry and obvious lack of a whitewood stage.

I am holding onto a small sliver of hope that American will re-do the design and make it a wide body(I would buy one if they did). I really do like what they did with Houdini and I think Octoberfest looks really fun. It is crazy to think that a couple inches in geometry or a bad mech or code can make or break a game. I am not sure how widespread the Octoberfest theme will resonate with pinheads? I truly do want American to succeed because I do feel they have very talented people and I like what they are doing. I am hoping that they get more beta testers(preferably professional players) that will help future design builds become stellar tables. Meanwhile Houdini continues to nose dive as people can't give them away.

#199 8 months ago

Sorry, JJP isn't analogous to a BMW.

WoZ had many poor electrical engineering design decisions that actually made it to market.

Pirates had to have the cornerstone mech removed from the design because they couldn't figure out the engineering.

That is a vast difference from BMW having a team of engineers dedicated to just the sounds their cars make.

#200 8 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Does Stern honor warranty for second owners? AFAIK it is not transferrable

On a case by case basis, yes.

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