(Topic ID: 236185)

Houdini ...... talk about taking a nose dive


By hoby1

8 months ago



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There are 345 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.
#51 8 months ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Who pretends Stern games are all gold? and what games are gold for u? very interested.

I mean, I could waste my time picking everyone out on these forums, but there are statements that basically say that in this very thread. The same ones calling the people JJP fanboys are pretty much Stern fanboys.

#52 8 months ago

Another useless thread about prices, depreciation (and lack of appreciation), and pinball.

14
#53 8 months ago

Curious to see where Beatles Diamond will land. I dislike this recent artificial scarcity trend and hope it goes away.

#54 8 months ago

Maybe he got a $1000 worth of fun out of it.

#55 8 months ago

Well I'm a pinball "fanboy" that owns all of the manufacturers.

JJP pins simply DON'T hold their value, unless you bought an original Wozecle for $6500 like i did

That being said, ANY pinball, Stern, JJP or otherwise, that is selling for north of $8k NIB is going to take a bath on the secondary market. Better get used to it if you are buying NIB or just wait it out and buy used.

I think the irony of the whole thing is Stern raised their pricing to take out all of the "flipper profit" on their LE's after they saw what happened on Metallica....

Fast forward to now, its that kind of thinking that is ultimately going to crush the NIB $8k plus market. And that is the ONLY one JJP plays in.

JJP is horrendous on the marketing front with their "LE" strategy or lack thereof. And the "CE" is fine but only for great titles, like Wonka coming up.

#56 8 months ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Curious to see where Beatles Diamond will land. I dislike this recent artificial scarcity trend and hope it goes away.

Well there’s one on here for 15k...see if it sets a trend although I suspect most won’t be resold

#57 8 months ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I’d buy a Beatles NIB for 5k and sell my Seawitch, that’s my threshold level to want to change out my Seawitch.
I really like American Pinball’s attention to detail and build quality. I hope the company sticks around. Houdini was a great freshman effort, just needed it’s shots engineered a bit better. By game three I think AP will have all their kinks worked out.

IF............they make it to game #3....

#58 8 months ago
Quoted from lancestorm:

Jjp has consistently held a very high value

I sold my STLE two years after buying it for more than I paid for it. Let me know when a two year old JJP game sells for even close to what it originally cost including shipping. The fact that JJP Limited Editions are in no way "limited" has something to do with it, but the lack of fun and the $9000+ original cost are the real culprits.

#59 8 months ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Curious to see where Beatles Diamond will land. I dislike this recent artificial scarcity trend and hope it goes away.

This is a good time to mention that it's been almost 10 weeks with zero Beatles Gold sales on the beatles official site. Beatles fans are not dumb, and not that into pinball. So hopefully this is the end of the action figure pack marketing model.

#60 8 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

I sold my STLE two years after buying it for more than I paid for it. Let me know when a two year old JJP game sells for even close to what it originally cost including shipping. The fact that JJP Limited Editions are in no way "limited" has something to do with it, but the lack of fun and the $9000+ original cost are the real culprits.

You can't compare a Stern LE to a JJP LE. They're not the same levels since the companies use different terminology.

JJP CE = Stern LE
JJP LE = Stern Premium
JJP Standard = Stern Pro

#61 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

This is a good time to mention that it's been almost 10 weeks with zero Beatles Gold sales on the beatles official site. Beatles fans are not dumb, and not that into pinball. So hopefully this is the end of the action figure pack marketing model.

Seems like they are all over the place in Florida, so pinball people are buying them even if the music people might not be. Not surprising. I know an OP who bought four of the Golds.

#62 8 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

I sold my STLE two years after buying it for more than I paid for it. Let me know when a two year old JJP game sells for even close to what it originally cost including shipping. The fact that JJP Limited Editions are in no way "limited" has something to do with it, but the lack of fun and the $9000+ original cost are the real culprits.

Did you buy your STLE NIB?

#63 8 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

Seems like they are all over the place in Florida, so pinball people are buying them even if the music people might not be. Not surprising. I know an OP who bought four of the Golds.

That seems to always be the case. Some people say these special run games aren’t intended for us...but it’s always us buying them.

How has the Primus run sold? Anyone know?

#64 8 months ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

Another owner price pumping.

Not price pumping. Look at market archive.

Quoted from rotordave:

Congrats! That’s a good price. I’ve seen them in the high fives. 6s is common. Check out the first page of the archived marketplace.
Nothing against the game - don’t take it personally - it just is what it is.
rd[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Ah you are right. Good point.

#65 8 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

IF............they make it to game #3....

I don't see any problem there. They moved to their new building and production Obtoberfests are on the line.

LTG : )

#66 8 months ago
Quoted from Wildbill327:

Did you buy your STLE NIB?

Yep. And not a sweetheart deal either. I don't buy enough NIB to get the secret third degree handshake price.

#67 8 months ago

I’m a big fan of API. Definitely in on Oktoberfest. Lots of features for the price. I see value with them - not so much with the Munsters that I have on order. Don’t get me wrong - I am looking forward to Munsters, just not feeling like I am getting what I paid for.

#68 8 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

Yep. And not a sweetheart deal either. I don't buy enough NIB to get the secret third degree handshake price.

You mean you didn’t buy it from the back alley at midnight special...lOl. At least you got your cash back + and got to play a good game for 2 years. If all pin deals went this way I think we would call it pin heaven.

#69 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

JJP Standard = Stern Pro

Lmfao

#70 8 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I mean, I could waste my time picking everyone out on these forums, but there are statements that basically say that in this very thread. The same ones calling the people JJP fanboys are pretty much Stern fanboys.

27
#71 8 months ago

It's no concern to me whatsoever how much the price of my Houdini depreciates. If the economy crashed tomorrow or if World War III broke out, everyone's machine would be worth just firewood to keep you warm. One never knows what "tomorrow" will bring, but eventually the inevitable will happen. Yes, the past will repeat itself.

That being said, I play pinball for fun & escapism. When I discovered this incredible hobby I knew that my wallet would take a hit. When I purchase a machine I always know what I want & I'm always willing to pay up for it. Also, sometimes it works the other way. But life is too short to bicker over a machines value/worth considering that pinball is subjective & a certain title might not be your thing. Pinball is expensive, but what this hobby gives in return is worth every penny lost!

Nonetheless, Houdini Rocks!

#72 8 months ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

That seems to always be the case. Some people say these special run games aren’t intended for us...but it’s always us buying them.
How has the Primus run sold? Anyone know?

I heard it sold out

-20
#73 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well I'm a pinball "fanboy" that owns all of the manufacturers.
JJP pins simply DON'T hold their value, unless you bought an original Wozecle for $6500 like i did
That being said, ANY pinball, Stern, JJP or otherwise, that is selling for north of $8k NIB is going to take a bath on the secondary market. Better get used to it if you are buying NIB or just wait it out and buy used.
I think the irony of the whole thing is Stern raised their pricing to take out all of the "flipper profit" on their LE's after they saw what happened on Metallica....
Fast forward to now, its that kind of thinking that is ultimately going to crush the NIB $8k plus market. And that is the ONLY one JJP plays in.
JJP is horrendous on the marketing front with their "LE" strategy or lack thereof. And the "CE" is fine but only for great titles, like Wonka coming up.

POTC - ffs, that boat sailed LONG TIME AGO... Such a stupid theme. Oh and Hobbit.. Vomit.

Shits me that us Aussies pay $4800 more for an extra toy + Backglass (whoopee big shit) regarding Stern Le's now.

And as for American Pinball - at least you are getting top quality in their machine as seen in Houdini. Unfortunately the game plays terribly.
Look forward to their next machines.

#74 8 months ago

What's so funny? I was explaining the tiers at the two companies (as was 100% clear from the full context, not the one line you quoted), not implying that a Stern Pro can sniff the balls of a JJP Standard in build quality or features/toys.

#75 8 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

I sold my STLE two years after buying it for more than I paid for it. Let me know when a two year old JJP game sells for even close to what it originally cost including shipping. The fact that JJP Limited Editions are in no way "limited" has something to do with it, but the lack of fun and the $9000+ original cost are the real culprits.

I sold my Woz after owning it for 4 years for 2500 more than I paid for it, so it does happen

-2
#76 8 months ago

If Jack could figure out how to sell his base model for $6500, he would eat Stern's lunch.

Market saturation is going to push 90's DMD games down the hardest, I think. As a casual pin owner... Why would I buy a $3500 to $4500 title like NGG or Funhouse, when I can pick up a used Stern pro for $4400 to $5000? I think people will stop buying NIB as much, and wait for the new pins to hit the secondary market if saturation continues to push used prices down on relatively new pins.

#77 8 months ago

Does anyone know how many Houdini's were produced? As people continue to flock to this hobby I think houdini prices will rebound. I'd certainly throw 5k at a houdini before a wh20 or fathom.

#78 8 months ago
Quoted from Marcdaddy:

I've been offered twice a n.i.b. Houdini for $5800 and even a straight up trade for my out of box DP pro. Tempting but didnt bite.

That would be a tempting $ deal for a NIB Houdini for me if it were close.

#79 8 months ago

I think the price drop is due to people being able to still buy new. Nobody wants to pay retail for a used game when they can pay retail for brand new.

#80 8 months ago
Quoted from Pinstein:

Does anyone know how many Houdini's were produced? As people continue to flock to this hobby I think houdini prices will rebound. I'd certainly throw 5k at a houdini before a wh20 or fathom.

AP isn’t saying, but there has been speculation (possibly based on no factual info, so grain of salt here) that it’s 500+.

That’s too many to take on the glamour of a small run game like CC, BBB, or Alien, but since those usually turn out to be kinda disappointing at least people have gotten to play it!

#81 8 months ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Since games are so soft right now does anyone want to make me a smoking deal on there IMDN LE

No.

“The bubble is bursting!!!!” Except only for Houdini.

#82 8 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

If Jack could figure out how to sell his base model for $6500, he would eat Stern's lunch.

He already figured that out when he released WOZ at $6500 originally.

All you have to do is be willing to lose money on every game.

-2
#83 8 months ago
Quoted from musketd:

They have dialed in Les were 9k now going for 7500
Hobbits were new 9k then go for 6500 huo huge drops

Everyone forgets that there were 1500 Hobbit pre-orders that were $7500 from WOZ buyers/JJP loyalists.

Also, it’s the best modern LCD era game. Phenomenal. Play one set up well with current code & volume up. There’s nothing like it.

As for the values of games in general: NO game will gain value as long as it’s still being made new....and since all games can probably be remade, modern game values will not go up until their companies go out of business. What we’re seeing now is called “normal market depreciation”.

#84 8 months ago
Quoted from extraballingtmc:

I heard it sold out

Sold out because Primus bought them all and are selling to their fans....or sold out because fans bought all of them from Primus directly (paraphrased version) ?

Quoted from JodyG:

Market saturation is going to push 90's DMD games down the hardest, I think. As a casual pin owner... Why would I buy a $3500 to $4500 title like NGG or Funhouse, when I can pick up a used Stern pro for $4400 to $5000?

Please be right. Man, I so hope you're right. I'm ready to buy ST:TNG, TZ, and a couple others for $3500 ALL DAY LONG, even with blown out PFs since those have mirco replacements available, while everyone moves on with the "ooooo shiney". Longevity and knowing I can service 90s DMD pins along with the nostalgia wins me over every single time.

#85 8 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

Sold out because Prius bought them all and are selling to their fans

This one. I think they contracted stern for 100 games and bought all of them. So stern has already made their money from this project.

#86 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

He already figured that out when he released WOZ at $6500 originally.
All you have to do is be willing to lose money on every game.

He could probably make it work, but he isn't going to do it in a high cost of living, high tax state like NJ. Jack has to be paying out his ears for labor there.

#87 8 months ago

Lol on the 1500 TH pre orders!

So many people like myself backed out after that infamous expo where they had still not gotten the artwork right.

TH nearly ran JJP out of business with all of cancellations. Along with the Big Lebowski announcement ironically.

That was the end of the pre paid era and JJP had to find the deep pockets investor

After enduring Woz, people got sick of TH delays.

8 years in now let’s see if JJP can actually announce and release a game

That’s the only way I would consider buying a NIB game from them and I want Wonka

#88 8 months ago

It wasn’t just the price tag of $6500 that hurt JJP it was the 4 yrs of burning cash before delivering a game

See Deeproot example

It still crushes them today!

You have to get our $$$ and lock it in by delivering pins DURING the hype train!

#89 8 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

Sold out because Prius bought them all and are selling to their fans....

Toyota's warehousing pins now?

Quoted from NPO:

Please be right. Man, I so hope you're right. I'm ready to buy ST:TNG, TZ, and a couple others for $3500 ALL DAY LONG, even with blown out PFs since those have mirco replacements available, while everyone moves on with the "ooooo shiney". Longevity and knowing I can service 90s DMD pins along with the nostalgia wins me over every single time.

I'll take a dirt cheap Shadow, please. Already have the new playfield.

#90 8 months ago

All this Hobbit hate and yet we keep seeing NIB buyers popping up weekly in the owners' thread. I dislike a lot of games and even a company or two, but do not feel the need to trash them every chance I get. Some people on here have some serious issues. I love my Hobbit LE. I am not worried about loss as I am not interested in selling it. If someone loves their Houdini, then let them have fun and stop trashing it. What blows my mind is why do HUO Stern Pros (with NIB available) not feel the 1k drop?

#91 8 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

I would rather play Houdini than any DI, TH or WOZ.

Owned a Houdini. I would rather play TH, WOZ and DI. Which is why I still own a TH and WOZ. Not saying TH and WOZ are top 5 games - they definitely are not. Both TH and WOZ play smoother than Houdini. And opinions are like assholes, we all have one.

Honest assessment:

Pros
- Code is solid and well integrated theme
- Game looks absolutely stunning - beautiful
- Straight jacket multiball is creative genius
- Trunk lock is an awesome toy

Cons
- Houdini should have been a wide body
- Certain shots in Houdini are designed too tight (see wide body) and create clunky shot experience. This is not "be a better player"; geometry is off
- The power supply issue should be supported by AP. No one should have to pay to solve this issue. Back your product. Just bad form. Sad people now need to list their game for sale and the selling point is "new power supply".

At $5K it's a great value buy. But have to be honest, mistakes were made by AP on their first pin. I'm rooting for their success cause some really good people there.

#92 8 months ago
Quoted from Crile1:

Some people on here have some serious issues. I love my Hobbit LE. I am not worried about loss as I am not interested in selling it.

Agreed. While it's not the best laid out game, the code and theme integration is immersive and awesome. Not worried about resale, not selling. Beautiful game as well.

-14
#93 8 months ago

Houdini was over hyped, over priced, and took too long to be produced. The shots are too tight, the flippers feel too week, and the game feels like it is going to fall apart when i shake it. The art package is beautiful and there is so much detail to everything in the game but its unfortunately not good at all. Gameplay wise, code and rules, layout. It wasn't anything special. And there weren't any new tricks used in the game. Ex, the ball launch into the lock, done on Aerosmith, the little monitor, done on star wars and hobbit, magnets under the pf, too many games to name that have done that. Its nothing special and I will never own one.

MJR

#94 8 months ago
Quoted from MJR8peanut:

Houdini was over hyped, over priced, and took too long to be produced. The shots are too tight, the flippers feel too week, and the game feels like it is going to fall apart when i shake it. The art package is beautiful and there is so much detail to everything in the game but its unfortunately not good at all. Gameplay wise, code and rules, layout. It wasn't anything special. And there weren't any new tricks used in the game. Ex, the ball launch into the lock, done on Aerosmith, the little monitor, done on star wars and hobbit, magnets under the pf, too many games to name that have done that. Its nothing special and I will never own one.
MJR

... Except all those features you mentioned are f*ing awesome and the stage curtain has never been done before

28
#95 8 months ago
Quoted from MJR8peanut:

Houdini was over hyped, over priced, and took too long to be produced. The shots are too tight, the flippers feel too week, and the game feels like it is going to fall apart when i shake it. The art package is beautiful and there is so much detail to everything in the game but its unfortunately not good at all. Gameplay wise, code and rules, layout. It wasn't anything special. And there weren't any new tricks used in the game. Ex, the ball launch into the lock, done on Aerosmith, the little monitor, done on star wars and hobbit, magnets under the pf, too many games to name that have done that. Its nothing special and I will never own one.
MJR

Took too long? They cranked this out faster than anyone expected. Wasn't it like 9 months from absolutely nothing to fully working pin? Everyone else takes years to get a pin out even with a built architecture. Hell, Stern takes 18 months plus to get out one software update. I've played a few Houdini's and they both played great and felt solid. I never heard of this power supply issue but overall it sounds like it was a pretty solid first pin. Cabinets are not splitting, boards are not grenading, and playfields not ghosting/chipping unlike certain competitors. You can argue the layout could of been improved but I don't know why everyone wants to poop on this game. It looks incredible, fun title, and it's pinball. Price is pretty fair imo compared to the high prices of Stern and JJP. I just don't think it's a game on anyone's radar. It's a decent game but the company is still proving themselves and it's a tough business to get into. I wouldn't mind having one but lots of other games I want more.

#96 8 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Took too long? They cranked this out faster than anyone expected. Wasn't it like 9 months from absolutely nothing to fully working pin? Everyone else takes years to get a pin out even with a built architecture. Hell, Stern takes 18 months plus to get out one software update. I've played a few Houdini's and they both played great and felt solid. I never heard of this power supply issue but overall it sounds like it was a pretty solid first pin. Cabinets are not splitting, boards are not grenading, and playfields not ghosting/chipping unlike certain competitors. You can argue the layout could of been improved but I don't know why everyone wants to poop on this game. It looks incredible, fun title, and it's pinball. Price is pretty fair imo compared to the high prices of Stern and JJP. I just don't think it's a game on anyone's radar. It's a decent game but the company is still proving themselves and it's a tough business to get into. I wouldn't mind having one but lots of other games I want more.

Finally... someone with logical sense

27
#97 8 months ago

Houdini was redesigned and built from the ground up between Expo 2016 and TPF 2017. So like 4 months. Insane! Great accomplishment!

#98 8 months ago
Quoted from Crile1:

What blows my mind is why do HUO Stern Pros (with NIB available) not feel the 1k drop?

Simple demand. Stern pros have been well received in the last few years and more pin buyers live around that price point.

#99 8 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Cabinets are not splitting, boards are not grenading, and playfields not ghosting/chipping unlike certain competitors.

Agree with all your other points and think Houdini is actually a great strategic game in a collection, but Houdini playfields ARE cracking and chipping at the scoop because AP cheaped out and didn't put a cliffy there to protect the lip from hard kickouts (from the inconsistent kicker strength). They could have easily prevented it, and I warned them it was a trouble spot after playing it at Pinagogo like 6 months before release. Unfortunately it looks like Oktoberfest will be the same setup, so at least some owners will have the playfields crack and/or chip at the lip in front of the bevel.

#100 8 months ago

MJR,

You are quite harsh on Houdini. Honestly, I wasn't expecting much before playing it, but after playing it in the home environment is a lot of fun! It appears solidly built. I'm actually impressed with their first effort.

I can't wait to play their next release.

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