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(Topic ID: 219367)

Hot Shot bonus accuracy


By bonzo71

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 22 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by kermit24
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Big Shot bonus (resized).jpg
Big Shot bonus lights (resized).jpg

#1 2 years ago

I'm having some trouble with the accuracy of my Hot Shot bonus. Sometimes (maybe 10%) I'll get an extra bonus count. When this happens, the ball lamp which was previously unlit, will light for a moment. Here is a video of another persons game acting the exact way mine does at the 6:00 minute mark. At that point in the video you'll notice the 7 ball lamp temporarily light and the bonus for the 7 ball is scored. The 7 ball target was not down for this bonus count. The issue on my game is not specific to any one target. I've cleaned the bonus stepper and contacts are aligned to the snow shoes. The switch that rides the cam of the bonus unit is clean and I believe it is properly adjusted. I'm willing to try anything to get this a bit more reliable.

#2 2 years ago

Does this only happen when a target next to the one that scores but shouldn't is down? For example, in the video, 7 scored and 6 was down.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Does this only happen when a target next to the one that scores but shouldn't is down? For example, in the video, 7 scored and 6 was down.

Yes

#4 2 years ago

Here is a schematic snippet from the 2 player version, Big Shot, featuring an unusual 6 volt relay coil, the J/Bonus Score Control relay:
Big Shot bonus lights (resized).jpg
If an extra bonus sores during the bonus sequence and a light flashes, it could be that a switch on one or more drop targets is gapped a little too close, especially if the bonus unit is mounted to the playfield. As the Bonus Unit advances and thumps the playfield it could occasionally close a closely gapped drop target switch at just the right time.

There is another possibility involving the Bonus Unit wiper disk (in red) that howardr may be alluding to. I'll let him elaborate on that.

/Mark

#5 2 years ago

Extra points are always welcome by me.

#6 2 years ago

Mark,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check the inner switches on the drop targets to see if on might be a bit to close. Looking at the schematic, is it possible that the lamp is getting power though the other side of the circuit with J/ 1c on the score motor?

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

is it possible that the lamp is getting power though the other side of the circuit with J/ 1c on the score motor?

I think the way this works is that when the bonus is collected the Bonus Unit steps through all 15 positions, labeled 0-14 on the schematic. At each step the J/Bonus Score Control relay fires if the corresponding drop target switch is closed (and the drop target light is on). I suppose it's possible that the J relay holder switch (white wire to maroon-white wire*) is gapped a little too close which could cause the J relay to fire, points to be added, and the drop target light to flash, all briefly while the Motor 1C switch is closed.

Since this is an intermittent problem, you may want to find a way to characterize it a little more so you can test changes you make. When you next see the failure, make note of which targets are down, and which target(s) give you extra points. Then put the targets back in the same position and collect the bonus again and again to see how repeatable the problem is.

(*) note that your wire colors may be different since this schematic is for Big Shot, not Hot Shot.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

The issue on my game is not specific to any one target

Quoted from HowardR:

Does this only happen when a target next to the one that scores but shouldn't is down? For example, in the video, 7 scored and 6 was down.

Given that, problem is most likely in the Bonus unit. Could be the snow shoes or the unit could be sticking occasionally. Are the snow shoe ends nice and round or have the ends worn flat? Are the show shoes centered on the contacts for all positions?

The intermittent nature of the problem and the location of the Bonus unit (hanging down from playfield?) make for a difficult diagnosis. Putting your phone inside the cabinet and taking a movie of the Bonus unit until the problem happens will help diagnose the problem.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

When you next see the failure, make note of which targets are down, and which target(s) give you extra points. Then put the targets back in the same position and collect the bonus again and again to see how repeatable the problem is.

Good one, markg Looking for repeatability is a good thing.

#10 2 years ago

Another thing to consider is that intermittent problems in mechanical systems are rarely stable. Your issue is almost certain to clear up, or more likely happen more reliably, making it much easier to diagnose.

#11 2 years ago

More info. I've check the drop target switches and found the are adjusted properly. What slows the stepper down when it finds a closed drop target?

Quoted from MarkG:

I suppose it's possible that the J relay holder switch (white wire to maroon-white wire*) is gapped a little too close which could cause the J relay to fire, points to be added, and the drop target light to flash, all briefly while the Motor 1C switch is closed.
.

I gapped the switch with the white/maroon white was wide as possible and this fixed the issue. Thank you!!!

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

What slows the stepper down when it finds a closed drop target?

The Add Bonus Unit solenoid fires at two different speeds depending on which circuit path (upper or lower) is being used:
Big Shot bonus (resized).jpg
Not knowing how many targets are lit, the Bonus Unit must examine all 15 targets one at a time and add points for those that are lit.

When the ball drains, the C/Add Bonus Unit relay (not shown) fires which starts up the Score Motor. With the Score Motor turning, the Score Motor Switch at position 1A generates groups of 5 pulses for every 120 degree turn of the lower Score Motor cam. Those pulses go along the upper path through the (now closed) C relay switch, the Normally Closed J relay switch and the Make/Break I relay switch and advance the Bonus Unit 5 steps per 120 degrees turn of the Score Motor Cam.

When the Bonus Unit steps to a position where the target is lit (refer to the schematic in reply #4) the uncommon, 6 volt J/Bonus Score Control relay fires which immediately opens the Normally Closed J relay switch, so no more pulses (in groups of 5) can get to the Add Bonus Unit solenoid through the upper path. The J relay also fires the I/Bonus Score relay (when the switch at Score Motor position 2B closes) which throws the I relay Make/Break switch into the opposite position. With the I relay Make/Break switch in this new position the 5 pulses from the Score Motor 1A switch must go through the lower path where the Normally Open Score Motor 1B switch only allows one of the 5 pulses through. That's what slows down the Bonus Unit when points needs to be added.

The I relay holds for nearly an entire 120 degree score motor turn, while 1, 2 or 3000 points are added for the lit target and the Add Bonus Unit is advanced one step, until the Normally Closed Score Motor 3C switch opens at the end of the cycle. Then it relaxes, the Make/Break switch flips back again and the 5 pulses are allowed once again to advance the Bonus Unit until the next lit target is found.

It's a really neat design that quickly skips over the unlit targets and slows down to allow for a variable number of points to be added for each lit target.

Quoted from bonzo71:

I gapped the switch with the white/maroon white was wide as possible and this fixed the issue.

I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that. I didn't think that was the most likely cause.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

It's a really neat design that quickly skips over the unlit targets and slows down to allow for a variable number of points to be added for each lit target.

And here I thought that my HS was counting the bonus by use of magic. (I mean, it sure sounds like it anyway when it's counting down.) Thanks for the explanation.

#14 2 years ago

Hi, I have a Big Shot and was having the same problem. I fixed it by shortening the stroke on the Bonus Unit (under the play field) solenoid. The stroke was too long and occasionally it was advancing two teeth, which whacked it out.

Before you adjust anything, push the solenoid plunger all the way in, as far as you can, by hand and see if it jumps two teeth. Do it multiple times. If it does jump two teeth you need to loosen the screws holding the coil and move it a little in the direction of the end of the plunger. If you push the plunger in and notice it occasionally does not advance a tooth, lengthen the stroke.

Make small adjustments and try again pressing by hand. Once I got it adjusted a couple of problems went away. Not only did it count balls correctly but it quit the double reset on the drop targets which was preventing it from advancing to the next ball. I've never experienced such a fragile machine! Of course, I don't have a lot of experience, so that isn't saying much!

#15 2 years ago

My issue was solved by by adjusting switch on J and also I did minor adjust of the make brake at C1 on the score motor. Mine is working perfectly. PDatc..I appreciate the suggestion and it may help others who have similar issues. I agree that this might be one of the most problematic bonus systems of all EM pins. I owned a Big Shot years ago and sold it because I could not get the bonus to score properly. Now I have another one working 100%.

2 months later
#16 2 years ago
Quoted from PDatc:

I've never experienced such a fragile machine!

God yes I own, have owned about 10 EM's and could not agree more, something is constantly needing diagnosed, adjusted and tended too on my Big Shot. You would think I was married to it as much attention as she demands!

2 months later
#17 1 year ago

There has to be a better more bullet proof way to fix the bonus scoring issue on this. My 1000 point bonus often counts for 2000. The 2000 and 3000 point bonus always scores correctly. I have endlessly adjusted everything mentioned so far in this thread. Anyone have a tip for the 1000 bonus counting twice?

I have two Hot Shot games and they both have this issue. One more than the other. And yes I like to punish myself that's why I have TWO Hot Shot games!

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from kermit24:

There has to be a better more bullet proof way to fix the bonus scoring issue on this. My 1000 point bonus often counts for 2000. The 2000 and 3000 point bonus always scores correctly. I have endlessly adjusted everything mentioned so far in this thread. Anyone have a tip for the 1000 bonus counting twice?
I have two Hot Shot games and they both have this issue. One more than the other. And yes I like to punish myself that's why I have TWO Hot Shot games!

You need to adjust the switches on your 2000 relay on your reset bank. The contacts are probably mis-adjusted causing the extra 1k to score even when the relay isn't active. My dad used to have this machine and he hated the different values for the bonus so I altered those switches so it only gave 1k for each target for every ball.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

You need to adjust the switches on your 2000 relay on your reset bank. The contacts are probably mis-adjusted causing the extra 1k to score even when the relay isn't active. My dad used to have this machine and he hated the different values for the bonus so I altered those switches so it only gave 1k for each target for every ball.

I wish it was this simple. The 2000 bonus relay is adjusted properly and still have the issue.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from kermit24:

I wish it was this simple. The 2000 bonus relay is adjusted properly and still have the issue.

Check for solder blobs and bent connections on the switches. Also there is probably a switch associated with the second 1k score on the score motor switch stack that needs adjusted. I no longer have the schematics so can't tell you the exact one but maybe someone else can chime in.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

Check for solder blobs and bent connections on the switches. Also there is probably a switch associated with the second 1k score on the score motor switch stack that needs adjusted. I no longer have the schematics so can't tell you the exact one but maybe someone else can chime in.

Yes finally!! It was a stack on the score motor #1. It needed to be aligned / adjusted properly.

Thanks man!

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Yes finally!! It was a stack on the score motor #1. It needed to be aligned / adjusted properly.
Thanks man!

Edit: this thing is so fussy you can’t breathe on it wrong. Not back to double counting some...

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