Quoted from cosmokramer:
Looks like there is an objective based replay (international rescue)...not based only on score or match
practically extinct and currently an endangered species.
back in the day, we used to call that a "special".
I can see the critical reviews from those that played it this weekend as spot on, given their comments regarding the game play/layout. if, in addition, the shots weren't panning out/feeling right it appears there's more work to be done than many might have hoped. some reviewers sounded so unhappy that they won't be revisiting this title again.
easy to see the extreme north/south ball movement in the vids as the ball returned to the flippers down the couple of long vertical alleyways. only 4 major vertical shots up the playfield. two lower ones for a total of just 6. the rubbered 'island' [circled in red below the center ramp] appears to present a huge obstacle in the middle of the pf. balls will never be able to move left to right across that area [white line]. appears the same could be said for the area at the base of the T2 ramp which looks to have lips on either side - ball wont be able to move laterally across that area either [white line] whether the ramp is raised [FAB targets up], or lowered. lack of opportunity for lateral movement definitely creates a more pronounced north/south game. need more video, but for now, looks like TAG falls short of expectations built up over a number of years.
Quoted from cooked71:
I dont recall the shot marked as number 4 was actually a shot
#4 definitely feeds the upper loop in the opposite direction of the initial plunge.
rubbers in the upper playfield [red arrows] indicate nothing extra going on from a gameplay standpoint. here you definitely see how the sides of the T2 ramp will limit lateral movement, as mentioned previously. and how does one target those two blue standups under the palm trees on the upper right?
my third post on issues with the layout.
bumpers are completely out of play [and take up a good amount of room!]. already hidden behind the 'red island' under the center ramp, there is no direct shot at them from either flipper. from the left side of the pf, the shot up the left alley to the kickback only bypasses them both on the way up, and the way back down - almost never interacting with them. from the right, the T2 ramp block lateral access to them. an entire bumper is out of play anyway because the surface area of 2 halves back up the 'red island' [highlighted in pink]. so, increasing the size of the 'new red island' to include the bumper nest, we have a HUGE amount of playfield space that is basically out of play.
as pointed out previously, the long rubber under the t2 ramp restricts play. it sends all balls passing thru the upper lanes to a common right exit and down the alley. this serves to block any balls from passing north/south between the upper and middle playfield in this area.
the two blue standups that change the music [under the palms and vertical to the player] appear rather inaccessible. some unused playfield space in the tracy island area [enclosed in white] as well.
having followed this thread, i understand the time and effort that has gone into this project. at the same time, im not going to be shy about voicing an opinion that I believe is an honest assessment. there are glaring problems with this layout. even from 1000s of miles away they can be seen. as much as i would like to be able to provide constructive feedback, it is difficult for me to see any quick fixes. given the time that has elapsed and the expectations many had, this design is quite a disappointment.
Quoted from wiredoug:
what have YOU done lately?
what have i done lately?
i just critiqued the game's playfield.
care to break it down for us as well, or are you really going to wait months for the reworked version before you say something?
how will Mike know what areas need attention if they are not pointed out? failure to provide criticism now may result in genuine deficiencies never being address properly, if at all. the current list of future 'adjustments' being bandied about recognizes none of the apparent pf shortcomings.
if my entire review was simply the read-between-lines mantra they like to use over in the TNA production thread, "the game is different and may not be for everyone", does that provide anything meaningful? of course not. what it does tell me is that that someone does want to get into specifics because he probably is a supporter/friend/holds position in the community or industry who may not look good should they provide negative criticism - even if it is an honest assessment. that is a shame, because those type of people probably have the expertise/skills/knowledge to provide some of the best insight. instead, we hear none of it due to some form of correctness.
look around. negative comments from others abound regarding the layout. mine are just a bit more definitive. per head2head podcast, others who played the game last weekend dont want to be on record as being critical of the game for fear of repercussions, creating ill will, or hurting Mikes feelings. are you among that crowd? as much as you would like to say something, you opt for silence as being more discreet. be careful, because that's the formula for turning someone who puts a 10 inch wall across the middle a pf with an orbit around it into an awesome genius.
believe me, i would much rather be positive and encouraged. i had hoped that the reveal was going to be something truly special. i think most of us are capable of realizing that what we saw fell short. i believe the points i have made are real concerns. i am always willing to admit to being wrong should things pan out contrary to my opinion, but it is not this day.
one last thing to think about. how are 3-5 balls going to react/flow during MB when there arent too many places for them to go on this restricted layout. when we get to see more gameplay footage, its probably something worth paying attention to.
before getting started, let me make one more observation. while i pray they will see more action, the wireforms appreared to be used solely for dispensing MB balls into play. never saw them used to return an active ball to the inlane.
Quoted from Mancave:
it's noteworthy to mention that some of the most critical comments have been from peeps that haven't actually played the machine personally, just going off/extrapolating from others comments.
sorry, but top Australian players who gave it a go, couldn't endorse it. that's essentially an expert opinion.
is your logic here that those who haven't played the game are unqualified to comment even though they are basing their comments on the opinions of those who have played it.?
Further, they are making use of concrete additional information offered them by observing actual gameplay videos and detailed images of the playfield. when put together, thats plenty to formulate and justify the degree of criticisms made thus far.
Quoted from Mancave:
i feel that some of the opinions have been solely driven by personality based judgments not by the actual machine itself.
i disagree. most appear to be talking about the actual machine itself. and while no one seems to have real problems with the art, engineering, and sound; those critical of the gameplay/playbility are in the majority. perhaps you need to take another look.
and what is a 'personality based judgment'?
according to wiki:
Personality judgment is the process through which people perceive each other’s personalities through receiving certain information about others, or meeting others in person.
Quoted from Mancave:
was Williams, Bally, Gottlieb, Stern's first ever machine's awesome and knocked it right out of the ball park?
their first games were decades ago.
you convenietily left off all the modern startups: JJP, Spooky, HP, and American. seems like WOZ, AMH, Alien, and Houdini have/will turn out OK. Nobody was asking Homepin to hit it out of the park, they were just asking them not to strikeout.
Quoted from Mancave:
You rely on Wiki for your understanding of terminology? Ohh Deaaarr, that explains it then
sorry, next time ill consult sigmund freud.
just wanted to use a verifiable source to show you didn't know what you were talking about, at least as far as context was concerned. and i certainly dont need to show anyone how great your comebacks are. you did that yourself.
i only pointed out that the context of your use of 'personality based argument' appeared stupefying. by providing the terms definition, others could determine if it made any sense to them as well. if you feel my sarcasm when telling you 'nice comeback' is a personal attack, feel free to get a moderators opinion. certainly cant be worse than your insinuating that i must lack intelligence for relying on wiki for a quick definition.
i honestly dont worry too much about how others perceive me. youre not going to hurt my feelings. i dont need to be liked. if anything, id be content just knowing a few people benefited from my opinion if/when i contribute something i genuinely feel is worthy.
one thing i do not like are people who disagree with me that are unable to present a sound counter argument. especially if they have flaws in their logic, but believe they made their point. its a waste of everyones time.
Quoted from Mancave:
i am soooo looking forward to the release of this machine and why i'm thinking about which machines to sell to have extra cash. I think it's pretty clear to everyone now that Thunderbirds isn't just chucked together. the amount of planning and thought involved in all aspects of the process is exceptional.
sorry you were unable to offer your own reaction/impression [now that you have finally seen something], on a machine that you couldn't wait to see. instead, you chose to admonish those who have. sorry if your and so many others hopes for TAG have been dashed for the time being, but none of us can ignore what we have seen.
Quoted from Kombi:
Do we know who did the playfield design?
Quoted from PopBumperPete:
no work had been done by any one with experience designing games
improving ball times isn't going to matter. that current playfield is pure torture.
people should embrace the quick ball times, walk away, and never come back.
Quoted from jwilson:
the game looks like it doesn't play that great
Quoted from flynnibus:
I don't see TAG being a success anywhere.
Quoted from Micky:
Have you played the game or are you just talking crap??
re: gamplay. i have already made observations/conclusions earlier in this thread based on combining the layout photos, gameplay video evidence, and the comments from those who have played it [including top aussie players]. initial impressions - the current table is NOT viable. game needs a facelift.
maybe he can ask Ben if its OK to use some of his layout ideas from AMH.
Quoted from wiredoug:
do you have any constructive suggestions?
I wish I did. I would offer them if I saw something I believed could help. not very often when im at a loss for suggestions on pf design, but the issues that I believe exist here do not appear to be quick fixes. go back and read my earlier impressions [3 posts i believe], where i made specific points. in addition to those, its not very interesting when the ball returns from the top of the machine in just two predicatable patterns [rebounding back down the left, and sliding back down the right alley]. as it sits today, the game appears quite congested/restricted.
its unfortunate, but i feel its going to take more than minor adjustments to produce something players will be happy with. some sharp minds are gonna have to work this one over. if the pf/layout wasn't kept a secret for so long, perhaps constructive feedback could have been offered during development and made a difference. at this late/advanced stage, improvements wont be as easy.
china could fill all their ghost shopping malls with machines and create pinball metropolises.
all these bootique manufacturers who are doing things 'right' by delivering work-in-progress games months/years behind their self proclaimed schedules, dont have a very high bar to clear when they compare their 'success' against the 'final four' of skitb, hp, dp, and jpop. they should be comparing themselves against their own promises, in which case many have failed to meet expectations.
Quoted from embryon:
It's like your saying tag is dead no more production or homepin is broke or something. I haven't heard of any of this
circumstantial evidence : evidence that tends to prove a fact by proving other events or circumstances which afford a basis for a reasonable inference of the occurrence of the fact at issue.
like pipes said, there is no salvaging the thunderbirds layout. if you chose door number 1, you got zonked. lets take a look at whats behind door number 2. will it be the big deal of the day?
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