Open Source does not mean you can use it for commercial products.

Edit: Another beat me by seconds

Edit Edit: Screw him anyway. Did anyone else read his racists+ rants? This is not the company anyone wants to deal with and long term support it unlikely.

I love pinside and the pinball world. Doesn't matter what thread, what machine, whatever, there's always the same BS and all the same types of people fighting on both sides of the fence.

hahaha awesome last couple of pages in this.

This is so disappointing. I used to love this thread with Mike's updates. Then Mike has a meltdown and stop reading the thread for several pages. Now this. I had no idea how scandalous pinball was until I joined Inside a couple years ago and got my first exposure with Phil gate.

This might be the best damn thing I've ever read on Pinside. My hat is off to you sir.

This thread is such a disappointment. I really wanted to cheer Mike on, but things turned dark quickly. I'm in Canada so, there has been plenty of USA bashing especially now that Trump is in office, but to say it the way Mike said it just turns my stomach. Canada is often referred to the Americas by other parts of the world so I can't help but feel anger towards his attitude to the USA and up here too.

i love how no one has a problem with the leap from "some users on pinside" to "the whole of America"

if you want to follow along with the progress hes got a facebook page

if you want to toast marshmallows and pat each other on the back for 'winning'.. well done this seems to be the place.

DQ3Rx.gif

I'm with you & Aurich here.

I have sort of quietly reserved judgment with regard to Mike because I can only imagine the stress and grief of simultaneously burying a wife AND losing the person most crucial to the initial success of a start-up (during the most critical period of R&D no less). I imagine there have been times when it's all been nearly unbearable, and it is probably a contributing factor to some of the more outrageous statements and gruff treatment he has subjected everyone to. I've given a large benefit of the doubt and tried to chalk it all up to this plus a simple deficiency in adequate social skills development, but that just doesn't cut it at this point.

I'd like to think I'm compassionate above all else but even I have my limits, and for him to repeatedly insult an entire nation then proceed to copy the work (ethically no different than outright theft given that Ben declined Mike's request) of one of that nation's best and brightest pinball programmers is just a bridge too far and is unfortunately likely a clear window into his character.

Imho Mike forgets the fact that the whole pinball world reads his posts here. Not living in the USA but coming from Germany I couldn’t think of ever buying one of his products and I am sure he‘s losing a lot of credit all around the world.

I didn't know prototype machines that aren't for sale are commercial items/usage...

They are not referring to what was said on the Homepin official thread. The comments referred to are what Mike said on here before he set up this thread. The same sentiments were put on his own website. All were later modified or taken down by Mike but not before it had been seen and noted.
All was forgiven by many for a while and this thread ran quite smoothly. But the latest tirade has opened old wounds and his own words show a great disrespect for potential customers both now and in the future.
The book Mike should have read and been (obviously) heavily influenced by should have been:
How not to cut your nose off to spite your face..
..or...
Biting the hand that feeds you is a dumb act..
...or...
How to show grace when the chips are down.

I believe all 3 are written by,

Ibe. A. F. Ing. Idiot.

cool angle....but now tell the class what caused the original sentiments on his site? was it 'hating all americans for no reason?' or was it 'tired of being ripped off by buyers in america using paypal loopholes to get free parts and eventually getting so frustrated that the only option was not to ship to america at all?

Im sure someone will have it archived Doug and will post it accordingly. From memory, it was hating all Americans

Most open source licenses allow commercial use. The common definition is the FSF definition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Free_Software_Definition. Attribution must be given in most licenses and some (but not all) also force you to ship the source with the binary.
Ben's license for the boards forbids commercial use. However, CC is not a common open source license for software. (probably fine for boards though). Does anybody know which license was used for the source code?

C'mon Doug,
what angle you using? Time to just stop trying to defend a mate and let it go. Most know what was said and which context. Mike knew exactly what he was saying as he always uses CAPITALISED words to emphasise a point.
When not only yourself but a couple of others just have to stop defending his actions. They were/ are wrong.
Maybe then it will quieten down and some good things will come of it. Until then it is rough seas ahead for Homepin, his licencees and backers would not be impressed one bit.
I took a look at his Facebook page and there is just nothing to look at apart from saying that all went well at Newcastle? really?
But lets face it, it ain't too pretty for Mike at the present. Shame.
We tell the young crew not to post photos or comments on the internet as shit comes back. This is another lesson learned, hopefully.
Let it go

Oh Simpsons....

Hopefully someone else will pick up the mantle of posting updates. Even though I have zero interest in the theme and the game looks like it doesn't play that great, I'm still interested in progress and seeing what might come next and I'd rather not clutter up my facebook with it.

But, he is using the prototypes to market machines ultimately produced for sale. Sounds commercial enough to me.

I've had this conversation with some co-workers.. they hear a pinball podcast fire up when I start my car taking them to lunch and they're all snickering... 'there is a pinball podcast?".. and I say 'several, pinball is the most drama filled hobby I've ever experienced'

For the record, I am not trying to stop Homepin from selling their game. I just want our team to be acknowledged for the work we did which allowed Mike to go from dead engineer to working prototype in less than a year.

I don't know how many of you are on AtariAge. There was a stink a while back when current owner of the Colecovision trademark was going after homebrew cart makers. People did some digging and discovered the trademark holders acquired the (then abandoned) mark by proving usage of the mark using photos of a prototype handheld Colecovision I made.

That pissed me off, and made my fuse incredibly short when it came to Thunderbirds.

Regardless of what Mike has or hasn't done, why, his attitude, and what were or are his intentions, it's great that you feel like that, and aren't seeking your pound of flesh.

There's so much vindictiveness in this hobby / industry, and ultimately everyone loses from it.

One way or the other this will come back to bite him and probably the buyers in the ass. If it is true - and it looks very much like it - the use of Ben's work could pose some big issues later on when something does need to get updated or a new bug is uncovered which can only be corrected by Ben. This is something to consider.

Check the thread - this has been covered in detail ...

https://github.com/LonghornEngineer/Pinheck_Pinball_System

And look at the history on the license

That repository only has the CC license. There is no history before 2016. That is why I was asking.

No, not "most". Some allows commercial use, some does not.

Creative Commons is a very well known licensing mechanism in the software development world. It is intended to make software licenses simple and readable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons

If you look back at Ben's posts, he links to the license being used--it's a non-commercial license with attribution.

CC is definitively not common for software. They even recommend not to use it on their website: https://creativecommons.org/faq/#can-i-apply-a-creative-commons-license-to-software:

Can I apply a Creative Commons license to software?
We recommend against using Creative Commons licenses for software. Instead, we strongly encourage you to use one of the very good software licenses which are already available. We recommend considering licenses made available by the Free Software Foundation or listed as “open source” by the Open Source Initiative.

They instead recommend to use one of the open source licenses from the FSF (https://opensource.org/licenses). And if you check those they all allow commercial use. For software it is extremely hard to forbid commercial use. You got ads on your website? You are using it commercially - boom. That is also the reason why all common licenses (MIT, BSD, (L)GPL, Apache etc) all allow commercial use. See also: https://opensource.org/faq#commercial

Can Open Source software be used for commercial purposes?
Absolutely. All Open Source software can be used for commercial purpose; the Open Source Definition guarantees this. You can even sell Open Source software.

However, note that commercial is not the same as proprietary. If you receive software under an Open Source license, you can always use that software for commercial purposes, but that doesn't always mean you can place further restrictions on people who receive the software from you. In particular, copyleft-style Open Source licenses require that, in at least some cases, when you distribute the software, you must do so under the same license you received it under.

[edited]. You should have considered securing the code in the first place.

Uhmmm... no

https://github.com/LonghornEngineer/Pinheck_Pinball_System/commits/master/LICENSE.md

Goes back to whenthe code was originally published back in 2014... with a a shareAlike license. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0

Like the previous post already said...

Mike's version on the boards

https://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/90582-Ben-Heck-Thunderbirds-interview

just keep the thread on AA as it is better suited there! PLEASE

agree but it is for those that want to see Mike's justification for the proto boardset and an attempt to mask that the boards will change, though I still reckon if code is 99% complete that regardless of how the boards look it will still be Ben's software underneath

What a horrible way to view the world.

The link to Aussie Arcade forum was helpful and appreciated. Mike actually posted a letter to Ben in which he told his side of the story and gave a semi-apology.

I’d like to see a similar link to the previous controversial thread involving Mike and Kaneda. Might help further set the record straight.

Story doesn't hold water imo....

Then defenders are quick to point out these aren't final... they were rushed for pinfest... they just used what they had lying around.

These were boardsets made just for this game. They weren't Just "lying around" as they didn't exist. Before this, wasn't Mike going on about games on test location, how everything is coming together, etc.... and now he says the hardware isn't even ready in proto form?.. that's news...

Now Mike goes from "so what" to "well it really was someone else... not me"... keeps saying it's the prototype and pulls out the sympathy card.

Doesn't read as "you didn't have the full story"... reads like a set of excuses.

The thing I don't get is that if Mike is claiming the boards are "just prototypes" what will the final version be? Will it still be based on pinHeck boards and pinHeck code library? Somehow I can't see Mike scrapping all that and starting over to make a "final version" that isn't based on the pinHeck system.

that whole thread was deleted by AA. The whole thread started down people asking whether or not they were getting people showing up and their door trying to get signatures for legalizing gay marriage. Mike chimed in with some snide comments, people called him on it, he doubled down, then got offended when someone called him a tinkerer, then somewhere later K chimed in .. you didn't even have to read the thread to the point where K got involved to form an opinion.

in his post he answers your question...
1: the final boards are a distributed system designed by mike.

2: the code was outsourced and it seems clear it was inspired by this heck chaps code

I haven't got the code to confirm how 'inspired/ modified it is but mike described the changes as drastic. Im not really interested in calling him a liar on that. if he says its drastic so be it. its certainly not a cut/paste copy but the details of how similar it is would require a code audit and I'm not offering

I love how he trots out the dead wife anytime he gets caught with his pants down.

His whole story reeks - first he denies his boards have anything to do with Ben, fighting back and forth and saying some nasty things about Ben in the process, then suddenly it's some third party's fault for stealing? Oh and he wasn't paying close attention? What a pant load. No one wastes time on a "prototype" board only to dump it.

Well, I guess we'll wait another few years for Thunderbirds to actually be available and evaluate the "new" boardset then.

i thought about it

but vile dribble like this is why I'm reluctant to do it.

That’s a shame. I’d like to read the original thread for myself, and draw my own conclusions.

Classy

It's pretty vile how he brings it up in an email to try and generate sympathy, to excuse away his stealing someone's work, or anytime someone calls him on his shit.

Yea, this is pretty bad. I really feel for his loss, but to keep bringing it up in technical discussions to distract from his theft of Ben's technology is just crass. The guy doesn't appear to have very strong morals or ethics. At least I don't have the conundrum of wanting to buy his game, as it appears to shoot rather poorly at this stage of development.

I'm willing to bury the hatchet. I just wanted our work to be acknowledged, which it has been.

Class act!

What a shitty thing to say. Seriously get some common decency FFS.

He's the one who keeps bringing it up.

As shitty as it is to say, it's true. I thought the very same thing. Once Mike starts losing the argument or feels it getting out of his grasp he throws in a comment about his wife passing. How many times did he say he's busy dealing with the passing of his wife? Meanwhile he's sitting on AA replying to every post? C'mon...

Justify it to yourself all you like - just for a moment though put yourself in his shoes and think about the reality of what happened and then think about the words you use and how they sound.

Here’s where Mike comes back, digs up the hatchet, and lodges it firmly in your back while muttering more insults about your work.

My take (for humor only):

Mike: Can I use your code and/or board design, pretty please?
Ben: No
Mike: Ok! (proceeds to use code and board design anyways)
Ben: Hey I thought I said you couldn't use my stuff, now you are using it and not even crediting me?
Mike: Your code sucks and your design is generic! I had nothing to do with this it was a third party that just conveniently stole your ideas that I asked to use before! I love it! I hate it! I'm using it!
Ben: <facepalm>