You reap what you sow?

Well to be clear - he didn't necessarily need permission... depending on what iteration of the code he is using. Ben's decline of helping HomePin as a contributor doesn't mean Homepin couldn't use the early pinheck code. But no matter what version of the code he is using, he's violating the shareAlike license (since the code was covered by that at first) by failing to attribute to the source and sharing back. Now, the real detailed guy would say "well this was just a showing of a prototype, its not done yet" so you can say those things are simply 'yet to come'. It's not like they would have to be handing out CDs with code at a pinball show to meet the requirements, or that possibly documentation/credit aren't done. But Mike's response makes it pretty clear how he feels about the whole thing and that he felt he was immune anyway from those requirements. And of course, if he's using the later pinheck code... all bets are off as that is covered by a more restrictive license which bars commercial use.

Permission or not... Homepin is in the wrong here. And Mike's response is deflect and pivot...

I hope Mike's pockets keep going deeper... I don't see TAG being a success anywhere.

Edit: And now see Ben has posted as well... before my post

Well then, now that everyone is happy and got what they came for, we can close this thread.

I guess the game is deserving of the name TBAG after all.

I guess since Homepin rage quit and this was the "OFFICIAL" thread, there is no reason to keep this thread open.

I have never seen someone try to torpedo their own work. So odd.

download (resized).png

He inactivated himself. This leaves the door open to come back.

Besides, just like Predator the thread can start as a sales pitch and end as a dumpster fire.

Would you deny people their chance to toast marshmallows?

Those clauses usually apply only when you ship a product. It needs to include the source/attribution at that point. At least that is how GPL is interpreted in courts. A prototype would be grayarea for the cause of attribution but for source code it would be fine. This is very common for all kind of vendors to get wrong (about 90% of the router vendors in the world for example). They usually fix it later. Though some need to get reminded in court.

I like Ben’s theory from a podcast that we can’t talk about.

To paraphrase (and correct me if I’m wrong) - Mike’s objective is to sell his Chinese parts that he’s manufactured and the whole pinball thing is secondary.

Maybe he’s just trying to get bought out by Stern or something.

Isn't that exactly what I alluded to in the next line of my post?

But that wasn't Homepin's defense at all.. so .. here we are

I didn't notice if you got away, but it does seem that's what you alluded to.

j/k grammar policing..

I know this isn't supposed to be a popularity contest, but given the choice, I'd rather sit down and have a beer with Mike than the guy that's been doing all the complaining.

Thanks mate, I think we'll need it!

Nah.. once you turned your back he would combine your beer with his because it makes his beer better then tell you to go and get f**ked

As long as he didn't sit and gloat and tell me over and over again I couldn't have a beer because it was too much like his or have to apologize for being in his royal company, I can take getting told to get f**cked.

O-din what is your deal? When people were attacking your hero who tells it how it is and apologizes to no one you were all about ignoring the character and talking about the pinball. Now that the pinball has started out a flop and he's been accused of stealing you're all about his character vs Ben Heck's. Maybe you're getting all of the thumbs down because people don't like your opinions that's how it works right?

I just like rebels. And when I have been moderated for and being called a broken record, which is kind of offensive as it is, it kind of sucks watching somebody else get away with it.

It's pinside silly!.

48d3c01ac22a762b7a1140d6f73d45a3--the-movie-my-friend (resized).jpg

Proof of the pudding will be in what appears in the presumably 'non-cobbled' final product.

If what Mike says is true about the final boardset, then either the machine is going to take a very long time to reach completion as he was caught with his pants down and now has to do a totally different board system; the one he's laid out ... or he's telling the truth and these were indeed just cobbled prototypes, the production targeted boards are in an advanced state, and the first machines will probably ship early next year after refinements.

If it's the former rather than the latter, I can't imagine the machine appearing before end of Q2 '18 at earliest. So it will be quite clear which was the case.

Will also be quite interesting to see whether the no-home-updates feature remains in place.

The Harvest is plentiful, but what about next year...

Screenshot-2017-10-20 Nice Looking Corn (resized).png

You think Homepin is a rebel? Being an a**hole and a thief doesn't make him a rebel.

Exactly. At one time, I was excited to read this thread and about his progress. I thought Thunderbirds was a cool theme. I was becoming very interested in the project and perhaps it might be a good option for my next pin. It was fun to follow how he was building the factory.

But then the insensitive epithets came out. I hate the PC culture police but there is also a line, at least in America, that you avoid crossing. At least when you're trying to start a new business in a very public way. OK, so he's crass and ignorant of what is not appropriate in 2017. Maybe I can overlook it. But then he doubles down on his dumb comments and goes on to thrash the American pinball market. I don't understand have any rational person can't be a little put off by this behavior. Then comes the whole "borrowing" of Ben Heck's system. Again, no "sorry, I misunderstood what the license meant." Just another dose of arrogance.

Now I read this thread for comic relief. What's this guy going say next and how's his fans going make excuses for his behavior this time.

Coughlans law: Bury a dead thread

All they do is stink up the joint

Time for a Cocktail

I suspect Odin considers Homepin a rebel because of the curmudgeonly choice of an old single color DMD.

Well, when Thunderbirds was first announced and there was a lot of shit thrown his way he PMd me and treated me with respect and like a human being, not somebody that acted like he wanted me to bow down to. And throughout this entire shit storm, his responses are much like mine would have been.

It sucks if he did steal, but truth is he never stole anything from me, but if he had I wouldn't be crying about it on this forum.

That's bullshit. If he stole something you put hundreds of hours into and then acted like a jerk about it I find it very hard to believe that you'd be ok with it. The story about him messaging you explains your absolute defense of him no matter how ridiculous this whole thing is getting.

Can we open a poll and vote to shut this F$%kmshow down??

Christ, He stole, but he didn't steal from me?????

Can we shut this down? How about now??

ARRRGHHHHH!!!!

I've had a lovely time sitting and drinking with Ben before. I'd do it again given the chance, we don't live particularly close to each other.

Mike sounds like a tool, can't imagine wasting perfectly good drinking time on him. This isn't news, I've thought he was an a$$ for years, this whole fuck the USA schtick was tiring ages ago. Okay guy.

Even in my most arrogant rants I don't think I've ever told a whole country to fuck off.

As for all this bullshit about cobbling and prototypes, yeah, you'd have to be a real moron to buy that. You want to make a proto? Buy a PROC or Fast or something. You don't spend time and money fabbing your own boards, stolen or otherwise, to make a couple games and then start over.

Whatever, he took his ball and went home. But people who steal from the community and shit where they eat deserve the pile on, I say let it ride until people are bored with it, then we can forget the game even exists, assuming it ever actually gets made.

And when you get up in the morning, you check the doorknob, grab the clothes on that hanger that your wife picked for you to wear that day and think to yourself how fortunate you are that your taste buds match...

Wut?

Thumbs up this post if you live in America and won't be buying Thunderbirds.
Thumbs down this post if you live in America and will be buying Thunderbirds.

I have, but it was Liechtenstein, so not that impressive in the end.

Thank you for your kind words, however I don't think we need any luck for the forthcoming ashes series as the tourists have as much chance as an ice cube in hell

Technically Lichtenstein is a principality but same same.
If you're in the capital Vaduz I highly recommend a visit to the Kunstmuseum to check out the modern art.
Lots of cheap Lindt chocolate and Swiss Army knives as well...

I've sent pinball mods all over the world. By world outside of North America I mean mostly Europe and Australia.

The pinball folks in Australia are awesome. I'd be an even bigger idiot than my most downvoting fans think I am to diss the entire country of Australia.

Why would I ever say "oh, my Helen decals? Yeah they're not meant for Australia."

Just say "I want to do themes that resonate with what I grew up with, what was popular where I lived." Who would possibly fault that? Instead he says "piss off. This isn't for you." Soon as I saw that, years ago, I red flagged the whole thing.

Pinball isn't like a painting. You're not dealing with just an artist creating his vision. It's a business, it's complicated to do, it's complicated to support, and you can't ignore that who you're dealing with matters if you're spending thousands.

I forget who said this quote, Maya Angelou maybe? I'm probably butchering it: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Which one is the guy who steals your beer and starts drinking it when you go off to the bathroom, and then when you call him out on it and offer to buy him his own beer, he says your taste in American beers sucks and gets up and leaves in a huff muttering something about "IDGAF"?

As distasteful as copying code etc, it happens all the time in business. People copied our designs in regards to our joinery business and we in turn copied designs from them. If someone puts out a good idea/concept in the public of course it will be copied. Why do you think Coca Cola keeps their formula secret?

I think Mike could have been a bit more diplomatic in his response and likewise Ben should have contacted Mike in private FIRST then if not a favourable response, go public.

Mike is is too arrogant to do that.
(edited)

Do you think JJP copied Sterns hardware and software? Or did Heighway copy P-ROC? No, because they realised it was business suicide to do so and to build value within the company you need your own IP. When operating in such a small arena as pinball it doesn't make any financial sense to rip off your competitors and insult your potential customers.

(Yes I do know that DE copied WMS Sys 11)

This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever seen.

Well, I never gave money to Jpop, sucks for everyone else who did. Still a good guy in my book. Why doesn't everyone just leave him alone? Stop crying about being stolen from.

Well, never gave money to Kevin for a predator... Why doesn't everyone just leave him alone? Good guy in my book.

See how stupid those comments sound? It's not cool to steal from people, period.

Home pin did try to work with Ben Heck. Ben said no...

Still doesn't make it right, but Home pin did not set out to copy from the start.

That's a extremely optimistic view. Mike wasn't going to Ben to ask to use the system... he was going to ben to try to hire him (and he knew Ben had a platform). Ben said no.... so Mike had to keep looking and opt'd to borrow prior work, justifying to himself it was all legit.

I had a beer with Mike at the Vancouver show. He's a straight shooter for sure. Been through hell and back in the last few years (lost his wife to cancer, almost lost his business, lost his programmer).

Spent all his time at the show helping out, fixing games in the freeplay area and even shuttling empty beer glasses out of the main hall (by himself, up and down stairs) when the show was wrapping up so they wouldn't be in the way when it was time to breakdown the games. Nobody asked him to do these things, he took the initiative. Seemed like the kind of guy who would the backs of his friends, family, and employees. Sure, he has some character quirks, who doesn't. He may be insensitive and stubborn, but I highly doubt he's a racist or a homophobe. He likes to get a reaction. People should spend more of their outrage energy on actual monsters right in front of them that are really harming people...

Some shortcuts were taken with the board designs and sw, as far as I can tell nothing illegal has occurred until Mike sells a game with said content. Sounds like he intends to address it further before then.

Anyway, the point is that people are usually a lot more complicated than the image in your mind when you're posting on the net.

Whatever, so the pinball drama.

I've heard the toilets flush the opposite way in Australia, but I didn't know everything else was ass-backwards too?

I drank beers last night with Ben and bunch of people who care a lot about and who are passionate about making rad pinball. These same people respect the work so many people put into making new pinball possible.

I have zero interest in drinking beers with anyone trying to make pinball any other way.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

Are you sure?, as Mike's world is to copy / re-engineer - look at the 80's Hankin sit down arcade game he makes and sells (with approval from Hankin), look at all the boards he has done for years, look at all the mechs, plastic parts for his pinball they are all copies of proven designs with some improvements here and there. He had a Getaway at the factory for years and apparently the lift up ramp to the TAG plane is a copy of the Getaway's one.

In saying that they have all exited protection periods, and if the designs are proven even better, so not knocking him for doing that but that is his world - copy and re-engineer.

I don't think he could of got a machine running if he didn't have something like Ben's software as a starting platform and he should of made a statement straight away instead of denying it and been honest and respectful. It is what it is now, and time will tell if it will be on a different platform in the future and if it improves. I am not a fan of his views & attitude and he damages the reputation of many aussies in general.

'Hey neighbor, can i buy your lawnmower?'
'Sorry, not for sale

Next day-
'I insist, Mr. Police officer, I am the victim here. He would not sell it to me, what is an honorable man left to do but steal?'

Difference - Ben put the code out as open source. Totally wrong analogy with the lawnmower.

Mike didn't break into Ben's workshop and steal the data, he didn't have to hack Ben's computer to get the data, it was out in the public as OPEN SOURCE.

Once again I don't agree with using IP without proper credit, but if Ben was so scared of it being copied why make it open source??? Don't put trade secrets out in the public if you don't want them copied!!

And I reiterate AGAIN, credit should have been given and if the system was not to be used on production models, that should have been stated from the start, which would have avoided a lot of this drama.

Again, another person who has NO idea how open source licensing works. Open source does not mean FREE and it definitely doesn’t mean use without credit in COMMERCIAL applications. This is flat out theft. Mike needed to ask for permission from Ben as per the license since it was being used for commercial purposes. Credit is not good enough in this instance. Now Ben has said he would be satisfied with credit alone in this case but sans that allowance, permission must be granted not just credit.