(Topic ID: 172723)

Homepin OFFICIAL Thread - Pinball Parts & Machine Progress


By Homepin

2 years ago



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#1701 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

...the IP was released under an open source license. No commerical deliveries have occurred yet, so there is no "IP theft" at this point. However, there is an attempt to slander Homepin. If you've ever been slandered on the internet by someone, you might be more careful with your words.

Quoted from PinSinner:

You need to learn how to use the word "allegedly". You should start using it, because at this point your comments are close to becoming slanderous IMO.

When did the fun pinball website become overrun with wannabe lawyers?

You need milk.

2AFE2EC2-3527-4693-A6A0-BE4BA98EDEB5 (resized).jpeg

#1702 1 year ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

You need to learn how to use the word "allegedly". You should start using it, because at this point your comments are close to becoming slanderous IMO.

Only because you tried to tell someone to learn how to use words.....

Slander is spoken, libel is written. His comments would technically be libelous.

#1703 1 year ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

You need to learn how to use the word "allegedly". You should start using it, because at this point your comments are close to becoming slanderous IMO.

Did you not read what Ben posted? He is all but saying directly it’s his code and design and blatently copied. Point that comment at him. If the creator and one of the most respected people in this community is saying his stuff was stolen, you kind of believe that especially since the only thing he asked for is credit for the design and nothing more.

I think we can all agree that China isn’t exactly the model for IP laws. This all together is called reasonable deduction. Do I know it’s definitively Bens code? Nope. But silence is deafening. Mike had come here to previously defend any minuscule scrutiny and yell at us Yankees any chance he could get but he is conspicuously absent on this one.

I’m not slandering anyone. I’m just curious if the design and code is original or not. It will all come out in the wash at some point or another.

#1704 1 year ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

You need to learn how to use the word "allegedly". You should start using it, because at this point your comments are close to becoming slanderous IMO.

I don't see anything false in his statement so not close to slander.

30
#1705 1 year ago

This argument first came up after I saw Thunderbirds DMD footage in this topic. Did some comparisons there too. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-designers-please-listen/page/3#post-3970293

That convinced me he copied / reworked out board set and AV kernel, and then seeing the video on this topic of the Thunderbirds game menu it became likely he copied the AMH game code framework as well.

You know why AMH has great code? Because I spent thousands of hours on it. Which means I know it better than the back of my hand, and can spot it a mile away.

#1706 1 year ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

You need to start using the word "allegedly". You should start using it, because at this point your comments are close to becoming slanderous IMO.

Did you even read Ben Heck's posts? Mike is welcome to address the situation and clear up any misconceptions, this is his thread after all dedicated to his project.

#1707 1 year ago

So Stern copied Bally boards in 1978 and then data east did the same with Williams System 11

Didn't pinbox ripoff nucore

Did they sue each other then?

#1708 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Which means I know it better than the back of my hand, and can spot it a mile away.

I believe Ben when he says it was his code, because this is 100% true. I've had code stolen and was able to identify it in a heartbeat, even through the front end of another product.

#1709 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

This argument first came up after I saw Thunderbirds DMD footage in this topic. Did some comparisons there too. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-designers-please-listen/page/3#post-3970293
That convinced me he copied / reworked out board set and AV kernel, and then seeing the video on this topic of the Thunderbirds game menu it became likely he copied the AMH game code framework as well.
You know why AMH has great code? Because I spent thousands of hours on it. Which means I know it better than the back of my hand, and can spot it a mile away.

Ben, I wasn't trying to imply that what you are claiming isn't true. I'm in no position to make a determination myself, and certainly I think that you would know.

My understanding is that the board designs, etc. were published under an open-source license that only required attribribution to yourself in order to use. Is there some portion of the IP that you believe Homepin is using that wasn't covered by that license?

If it all was covered by the license, then all Homepin needs to do is put the attribution clause in the back of their manual when the games finally ship out to customers and it's all good, right? I'm was simply pointing out that they have time to make the attribution still, if that's all that is needed.

#1710 1 year ago

The license also states non commercial, so it’s more than just attribution.

#1711 1 year ago
Quoted from russdx:

What is the hardware in planes? Like all avionic certified FPGA's or something? Like you get special automotive certified components for cars.

Yes, the boxes we place on planes are all custom hardware with ASIC and FPGA development. The architecture needs of an avionics platform is very different than a PC. The buses, communications protocols, cablings, etc. are very different. Weight and power are a big issue on planes. And there has to be a level of redundancy and failure-proofing that is different than what a PC architecture could provide.

Here is an example of our Fusion platform:

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/prolinefusion

Not unlike automotive certification. Very rigorous process to keep people safe.

Now back to pinball!

#1712 1 year ago
Quoted from konjurer:

Yes, the boxes we place on planes are all custom hardware with ASIC and FPGA development. The architecture needs of an avionics platform is very different than a PC. The buses, communications protocols, cablings, etc. are very different. Weight and power are a big issue on planes. And there has to be a level of redundancy and failure-proofing that is different than what a PC architecture could provide.
Here is an example of our Fusion platform:
https://www.rockwellcollins.com/prolinefusion
Not unlike automotive certification. Very rigorous process to keep people safe.
Now back to pinball!

Hmmm...The same people who designed Gottlieb System 1 boards.

#1713 1 year ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

Hmmm...The same people who designed Gottlieb System 1 boards.

Maybe konjurer can find us a cache of spider chips...

#1714 1 year ago
Quoted from MagicSmoke:

The license also states non commercial, so it’s more than just attribution.

Ah I see. I misunderstood the license terms. It is very clear that it is not applicable to commerical uses. So Homepin should have a separate commercial agreement with Ben (or at least permission) prior to selling these games to be on the up and up.

I guess we'll see what happens, certainly there is a long history of companies "borrowing" others designs in this industry, it's practically a tradition, but it feels more personal when the design is the work of one person vs. a faceless corporation.

Coming out of China it may be hard to enforce in any case, but it's certainly not cool. Sounds like Ben is only asking for credit where credit is due, which seems very fair. If nothing else, he can take pride that his work is being valued by others. I doubt that there is much of a commercial gain to be had in pursuing it legally in this case, unless Thunderbirds somehow starts outselling Metallica.

#1715 1 year ago

If Ben is smart (like I know he is), he'll just wait until the market is flooded with Chinese pinball machines and then sue for an appropriate settlement. I think a good lawyer could really extort a favorable agreement for the wronged party.

#1716 1 year ago

Knowing every machine sold is using your hardware/ software without permission would seriously piss me off I can certainly see where Ben is coming from.

Hopefully they come to an agreement.

30
#1717 1 year ago

pinHeck system was:

Ben Heckendorn (system design and kernels)
Parker Dillmann (board design and manufacture)
Chris Kraft (dot conversion tools)
Roy Eltham (audio subsystem programming)

At the very least there should be an acknowledgement that his system was based off our work.

#1718 1 year ago

I like how Mike asked to use it, Ben said "no thanks", and then Mike used it anyway.

-3
#1719 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Soooooooooo...how bout' them Yankees?

Dodgers are gonna kick their butt. I got tickets to game 2 of the World Series.

Last year, when I was at Expo, saw the Dodgers Cubs game 1 at Wrigley.

#1720 1 year ago

but apparently Mike said he has the best programmer in the world......

-1
#1721 1 year ago
Quoted from swinks:

but apparently Mike said he has the best programmer in the world......

Had.

#1722 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Coming out of China it may be hard to enforce in any case, but it's certainly not cool.

Where it comes from almost doesn't matter. Where the games go to could make it a big issue. In the US imported goods can be flagged by an IP owner and held up at the port. They could be prevented from entering the country. This happened to a non-US paintball company when they ripped off trademarked and patented IP and tried bringing them into the US. It's been a few years, so I don't remember the juicy details, but basically IP owners have a pretty good leg to stand on for US imports if they really want to fight.

I almost don't care how this whole thing plays out because Ben has pointed out there is at least one fatal flaw in the original PinHeck system. The modern version is free of this issue, but the previously available version is not. Spooky has the modern version and TAG potentially has the previous version. If tat flaw rears its head, it's ok, I'm sure it will be a simple fix/update. Oh wait...

#1723 1 year ago

Pretty crappy to just steal Ben's work. From what I've seen there's not going to be a lot of need for many manuals to be printed with acknowledgment as this game looks like a real mess in it's current state. Maybe enough can be tweaked to make it decent enough but this can't compete with any pro version stern offers. The artwork does look fairly well done, nothing else about it seems to be though.

#1724 1 year ago

Someone mentioned the return of Data East - very apropos. There's certainly room in the $5K market for another DE (ie. lower cost, cheaper BOM, mediocre art/sound/video) to sell games. I mean, DEs were mostly stinkers but they had some real winners too, so there's hope.

Plus, this is the first game and it's not a theme for the US. Maybe Europe and Australia will eat it up. Who knows.

#1725 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Someone mentioned the return of Data East - very apropos. There's certainly room in the $5K market for another DE (ie. lower cost, cheaper BOM, mediocre art/sound/video) to sell games. I mean, DEs were mostly stinkers but they had some real winners too, so there's hope.
Plus, this is the first game and it's not a theme for the US. Maybe Europe and Australia will eat it up. Who knows.

Yes. Plus I think Homepin may be able to eventually tap into a Chinese market opportunity that would make the rest of the world's pinball sales numbers look like a joke in comparison.

It would be a damned shame if all the hard work and money he's put into Homepin didn't result in some kind of positive outcome for the pinball community (and himself). Even it was just producing excellent parts/cost or contract manufacturing other company's pinball designs, more games with high quality and lower $ is a good thing.

#1726 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Yes. Plus I think Homepin may be able to eventually tap into a Chinese market opportunity that would make the rest of the world's pinball sales numbers look like a joke in comparison.
It would be a damned shame if all the hard work and money he's put into Homepin didn't result in some kind of positive outcome for the pinball community (and himself). Even it was just producing excellent parts/cost or contract manufacturing other company's pinball designs, more games with high quality and lower $ is a good thing.

agree having more quality parts is a good thing, but remember all his parts are metric so they are not going to all drop in place perfectly so that will limit the possibilities.

#1727 1 year ago

Pages and pages, allegations upon allegations have gone by, but where the hell is Homepin?
I notice he isn't as prevalent on other forums either.
Is he having a bit of a break after Newcastle? Is he still travelling back to his factory?
Surely, SURELY someone knows something as to why it is very quiet on the homefront.
The lack of response is concerning not only for his business but also his mental health.

#1728 1 year ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

Pages and pages, allegations upon allegations have gone by, but where the hell is Homepin?

Or the lawyers?

Sounds like it's time for somebody to either lawyer up or shut up or both.

#1729 1 year ago

Hang on, I thought everyone on Pinside was a lawyer...?

#1730 1 year ago

The boards used for the two displayed prototypes isn't the board set that will go into production. He may well have ripped off another design to get something off the ground but how close that is to the finished product is something only time will tell.
Anyway, this is China and your government and ours have allowed a situation to occur where the Chinese can copy what they like and then on sell it. Any copyright or protection you may have in place is null and void to a Chinese company and there isn't a damn thing you can legally do about it.
After all.. you wouldn't be enjoying low cost LED were it not for the Chinese.. no one wanted to buy the rock solid German ones due to cost.. but the Chinese copies?.. You all fell over yourselves to snap them up.
Is it unethical?.. of course. But is it illegal in China?.. nope, its called business. Add the fact that it is illegal to send faulty goods to China and you have a situation where a Chinese company can do pretty much anything and make anything they like.. hell! It doesn't even need to work!
Any warranty for Chinese goods falls directly on the distributors... not the manufacturer.

#1732 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Someone mentioned the return of Data East - very apropos. There's certainly room in the $5K market for another DE (ie. lower cost, cheaper BOM, mediocre art/sound/video) to sell games. I mean, DEs were mostly stinkers but they had some real winners too, so there's hope.
Plus, this is the first game and it's not a theme for the US. Maybe Europe and Australia will eat it up. Who knows.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't lose your marbles, DE is like the best company with the best art ever, just ask this guy:

#1734 1 year ago
Quoted from swinks:

but apparently Mike said he has the best programmer in the world......

It sounds like they would rather Mike refer to themselves as the "team" he borrowed from -

Quoted from benheck:

pinHeck system was:
Ben Heckendorn (system design and kernels)
Parker Dillmann (board design and manufacture)
Chris Kraft (dot conversion tools)
Roy Eltham (audio subsystem programming)
At the very least there should be an acknowledgement that his system was based off our work.

The best always work best in teams. 30+ years of software development has taught me about contribution and credit.

-11
#1735 1 year ago

First, I have just arrived back in the factory after spending 2 weeks in Australia. My internet was pretty sketchy while traveling and I was too busy to even look at the internet anyway.

I would like to thank all those who came along to Pinfest and played TAG, also those who came to my talks to find out some of the background to the Homepin story. It was great to meet many of you again and some for the first time.

The machines we showed at Pinfest and in Brisbane were rushed together and air freighted to get them there in time. They were far from finished and far from perfect. We have taken on board the many small changes suggested and will begin working on those straight away. Mostly they are small tweaks and pretty easy to implement.

Onto the complete rubbish that has been posted here and inflamed out of all proportion by the usual Pinside trolls - well done guys - you have managed to create 250+ posts of complete twaddle that I (for one) am not going to waste my time reading. I skimmed over a dozen posts, got the gist, and left it at that.

The machines shipped to Australia for the shows were cobbled together from many parts, mostly from our prototyping. The boardset in particular is a very early mockup and we have developed several versions since then. The latest (and final I hope) version is actually a five board set.

When our programmer died I asked around to see who might be interested in coming on board to help pick up the pieces. I wrote to many people including Ben Heck. Ben has posted our correspondence in full so there is no need to repeat that (very unprofessional Ben and you lose points for that).

We looked at the original Bally design, WMS WPC, Heck system, Fast and many other systems eventually settling on a similar CAN bus system currently used by Stern.

Time was not on our side so we put together a mish mash of what we thought was the better points of each system to get something up and running quickly and get us back to where we had been a year previously. This is what was seen in the machines displayed at Pinfest, it is not what we will be using for production machines.

If you look at the pictures below (they won't be in order, this site doesn't allow that) - these are screen shots from Ben Hecks posts right here on Pinside. You can see where he invites all and sundry to do as they wish with his design. Thank you Ben for the bit of assistance your information gave us and yes, you are right, there are many flaws in your design. I changed the hardware (for one thing) drastically, as it just wasn't robust enough for my liking. As for the software, let's just say there are elements of it that we took on board and adapted as we did with several other things available.

Combining all of these things gave us a workable system to start with and work from - which we are doing.

We are not using the Heck system (or any other system) but certainly have taken ideas from all of them. That's just how things work.

I really don't understand what the trolls see in trying to drag every one they can down? Not just on this thread but every other one it seems? They surely must lead very sad lives.

In any case, our main market (and let me say it for the 50th time) is NOT the USA. It never has been. I am NOT interested in selling "every machine I can" to "the biggest pinball market in the world". That has NEVER been my goal or aim - EVER! I have stated this so many times but it seems too hard for some trolls to comprehend. So it really doesn't matter how "crap" our machines are and disecting every last shot really isn't of any relevance as they probably will never see the light of day in the USA in any great numbers and that suits me just fine.

Nothing to do with "Americans" or any other reasons - just plain business. I'm running a different race to all the other companies and I am growing my own market not trying to muscle in on an existing one.

We are working on machines for the China market. That is our future. Stern has sold some here in China but the price of them, as well as the western themes, means they don't, and never will, sell in any meaningful numbers here.

This will likely be my last post on Pinside because I just don't have time for the nonsense and negativity around here - I'm just not interested. I have tried to give an insight into what it takes to manufacture something but it seems there are just too many trolls here to accept that I did that in good faith and because that is the side of things that interests me the most.

All you armchair lawyers can go back to picking your noses or whatever else it is that gives you joy.

Those that ARE interested in following the progress of Homepin (including many exciting new products NOT pinball) can do so here:

www.homepin.com
www.facebook.com/HomepinPinball

EDIT: I forgot the most important thing - I bought a book at Sydney airport and almost finished reading it on the flight home. The trolls on here could turn their lives around by reading it - "The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck" by Mark Manson. It is well worth the read.

heck1a (resized).jpg
heck2a (resized).jpg
Homepin Thunderbirds Font (resized).jpg
heck3a (resized).jpg

#1736 1 year ago

Well, it was nice of Homepin to finally credit Ben Heck. Of course, he did it in a backhanded way basically pointing out that he thinked Bens system sucked.

It's like the guy in the office that steals your lunch out of the break room fridge and then blames you for not putting enough mayonnaise on it for his liking. Bogans. Sigh

#1737 1 year ago

Yup, his total disdain for the United States was repeated "again". Then he shows how he replaced the font in Ben's system because Ben was nice enough to show how to customize because he always shares with builders. But I would assume that's for his systems on games with "his system" yes? I doubt a phrase saying it can be reversed engineered give the right to make a product out of it. He does say for AMH.

-1
#1738 1 year ago

If he doesn't care about Pinside, any Pinside trolls, and will most likely never post here again can a mod delete this thread? He doesn't need the advertising or the constructive criticism.

#1739 1 year ago
Quoted from Homepin:

EDIT: I forgot the most important thing... - "The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck"

I suppose that sums it up and explains everything, but since when is "Not Giving A F*ck" the most important thing?

I've purchased from Homepin, could have had interest in pins from Homepin, but can't wrap my head around the attitude I see coming from Homepin on here and other forums.

#1740 1 year ago
Quoted from Homepin:

First, I have just arrived back in the factory after spending 2 weeks in Australia. My internet was pretty sketchy while traveling and I was too busy to even look at the internet anyway.

But posting on the Australian Forum??

-3
#1741 1 year ago

Nice one Mike! Maybe if you send Heck a cookie, he'll let it go for now.

11
#1742 1 year ago

Called it:

Quoted from Homepin:

The machines shipped to Australia for the shows were cobbled together from many parts, mostly from our prototyping. The boardset in particular is a very early mockup and we have developed several versions since then.
Time was not on our side so we put together a mish mash of what we thought was the better points of each system to get something up and running quickly and get us back to where we had been a year previously. This is what was seen in the machines displayed at Pinfest, it is not what we will be using for production machines.

Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

My crystal ball is telling me we'll see a response from Mike in the next couple of weeks along the lines of:
'It was a prototype, that's what we cobbled together to get it running but delivered hardware will be completely different'

Quoted from Homepin:

If you look at the pictures below (they won't be in order, this site doesn't allow that) - these are screen shots from Ben Hecks posts right here on Pinside. You can see where he invites all and sundry to do as they wish with his design.

Mike leaves out an important part here, which is the non-commerical license. Ben was saying to hobbyists 'feel free to use our stuff in your projects and make sure you attribute us properly'. When Mike asked Ben directly 'can you help us?' his response was a resounding 'No, because it would be against Spookys commercial interests'. So what did Mike do? He used their work anyway, then went on the offensive when found out rather than trying to work with them to come to an arrangement.

Sorry Mike, I had a lot of respect for you with regard to your replacement board business and having the cahones to start up a new pinball company, but this behaviour is just really, really poor. It's one thing to copy, refine and manufacture a board from 20 years ago that is no longer commericially available. It's another thing entirely to steal someone elses current design and pretend like you've done nothing wrong.

#1743 1 year ago

book1 (resized).jpg

book2 (resized).jpg

-4
#1744 1 year ago

Hehe.

11
#1745 1 year ago

All I know is that this entire things sucks!

Was one of my favourite threads up until like page 20. It was a one man crusade to build pinball and he showed us how this was completed along the way. It was great reading and no other to my knowledge gave us this insight.

I have no idea if he stole or copied ideas but Mike seems like a typical good aussie bloke. I don't think he's pulling the wool and been very upfront along the way.

10
#1746 1 year ago
Quoted from Grg:

Mike seems like a typical good aussie bloke

I don't think it's part of the aussie principle of a 'fair go' to copy someone elses hard work, then when caught out to endlessly post 'IDGAF'.

#1747 1 year ago

Seems like he inactivated himself. I guess we know how he wants to discuss the legalities of his product.

While pinside is full of open piracy these days against the USA I really hope people realize the disgust generated by this kind of thing.

Edit: I'll probably get moderated for that. I wonder if it will be more than 4 hours.

#1748 1 year ago

Well I guess concern for his mental health wasn't warranted? WOW
Wasn't expecting that reply.
All the best then Mike if it is your last post here.

#1749 1 year ago

I also get my inspiration in life from superstar bloggers, lol.

#1750 1 year ago

I didn't know Thor wrote a book!

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