(Topic ID: 172723)

Homepin OFFICIAL Thread - Pinball Parts & Machine Progress


By Homepin

2 years ago



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33 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20 (Show topic index)

There are 3960 posts in this topic. You are on page 33 of 80.
#1601 1 year ago

it wouldnt be thunderbirds without the tracy island palm trees.

#1602 1 year ago
Quoted from fishbone:

Batman66 also.

Must be only the LE, etc. my local one has silver.

I forgot about WOZ ECLE, and I used to own that game!

For some reason, I just associate colored rails with RCT. I think that game is underrated. Bad code, but pretty great layout.

#1603 1 year ago

Yes, I believe you're right.

batman-66-stern25 (resized).jpg

21
#1604 1 year ago
Quoted from Pmuis:

You didn't give permission? Are you going to take legal steps?

I just want an attribution for our team that made this boardset and code possible. Mike can either fess up now or after someone inevitably dumps the A/V I2C EEPROM and finds them near identical - his choice!

Mike used:

Board design and processor configuration (obvious from the board photos I posted above)
Audio/video kernel code (obvious from how scores and text is drawn)
Basic AMH framework and menu system code (obvious from how menu system is lifted from AMH)

Oh and there's also this:

email (resized).jpg

#1605 1 year ago

I dont understand the "runs pc hardware" is not a commercial solution? nearly ALL systems these days are just a big system on chip running linux (ie i'm pretty sure this is what Sterns new system is) Its how every thing is done these days. And if future games are going to use lcd it will HAVE to be done this way!

#1606 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I just want an attribution for our team that made this boardset and code possible. Mike can either fess up now or after someone inevitably dumps the A/V I2C EEPROM and finds them near identical - his choice!
Mike used:
Board design and processor configuration (obvious from the board photos I posted above)
Audio/video kernel code (obvious from how scores and text is drawn)
Basic AMH framework and menu system code (obvious from how menu system is lifted from AMH)
Oh and there's also this:

Thanks for the referral Ben!

Mike, FYI you can communicate with our FAST Controllers using high speed serial communication and our FAST Protocol, if running game code on a PC is not your style.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#1607 1 year ago
Quoted from russdx:

I dont understand the "runs pc hardware" is not a commercial solution? nearly ALL systems these days are just a big system on chip running linux (ie i'm pretty sure this is what Sterns new system is) Its how every thing is done these days. And if future games are going to use lcd it will HAVE to be done this way!

I think the objection is more that there should be greater stability with an embedded microcontroller system, or SoCs, fewer points of failure, bug-fixing easier, software stack much smaller and replacement of faulty hardware much cheaper than run of the mill x86 PC hardware.

#1608 1 year ago
Quoted from Russell:

Painted habitrails, last seen on...Roller Coaster Tycoon? Am I forgetting some other examples?
Also, last time we saw palm trees on a playfield...Surf N' Safari?

Family Guy has a painted red wireform. Met has painted black.

IMG_1985 (resized).JPG

IMG_1986 (resized).JPG

#1609 1 year ago
Quoted from russdx:

I dont understand the "runs pc hardware" is not a commercial solution? nearly ALL systems these days are just a big system on chip running linux (ie i'm pretty sure this is what Sterns new system is) Its how every thing is done these days. And if future games are going to use lcd it will HAVE to be done this way!

He has said this many times. It’s just age and ignorance. He better never fly on a plane made in the last decade. They all use pc “components” and Linux. But of course because he has no experience in it, it’s not commercial worthy.

I’m any event this was pretty clear ip theft prior to Ben posting that correspondence. Wow. Just wow. Launching a product off someone else’s work when they clearly shunned you for ethical reasons. Not cool.

#1610 1 year ago

drenden Nothing about this project has seemed cool for awhile now.

#1611 1 year ago

I actually agree with Mike's points, it's why we built our system the way we did and clearly why he liked it.

I'd like to get down to a single MCU / MPU at some point but that's difficult with everyone expecting HD graphics now. That's why people slap PC's in pins, it's the fastest way to get that kind of display.

#1612 1 year ago
Quoted from Drenden:

I’m any event this was pretty clear ip theft prior to Ben posting that correspondence. Wow. Just wow. Launching a product off someone else’s work when they clearly shunned you for ethical reasons. Not cool.

There's no problem with him using it. He has to attribute it though. Hence:

Quoted from benheck:

I just want an attribution for our team that made this boardset and code possible.

Just because some individuals are constantly threatening lawsuits in pinball, it doesn't mean everyone's like this.

A lot of coders and engineers are actually happy and flattered that their work is used by others, even potential competitors. But they typically take a rather poor view of not being credited, and others passing their code off as original work.

#1613 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I actually agree with Mike's points, it's why we built our system the way we did and clearly why he liked it.
I'd like to get down to a single MCU / MPU at some point but that's difficult with everyone expecting HD graphics now. That's why people slap PC's in pins, it's the fastest way to get that kind of display.

The fastest, cheapest, most supportable, most backwards compatible for future proofing (assuming you know how to properly compile for backwards abi) and the most readily available. Obviously not production grade though. </sarcastic>

#1614 1 year ago

China is the home of reverse engineering.. its the old adage " same same but different".

But to ask for permission to use something, not obtain that permission but then go ahead regardless and copy it anyway is a pretty low act in anyone's book

#1615 1 year ago

Remind me never to get the same haircut as BenHeck.

-4
#1616 1 year ago

This guy is just a snake he is no pinball designer the game looks like Amateur hour...... I guarantee you you won't see him on this thread again

#1617 1 year ago
Quoted from Geddy2112:

This guy is just a snake he is no pinball designer the game looks like Amateur hour...... I guarantee you you won't see him on this thread again

Probably not after he bashed Americans then goes and steals American designs.

#1618 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I just want an attribution for our team that made this boardset and code possible. Mike can either fess up now or after someone inevitably dumps the A/V I2C EEPROM and finds them near identical - his choice!
Mike used:
Board design and processor configuration (obvious from the board photos I posted above)
Audio/video kernel code (obvious from how scores and text is drawn)
Basic AMH framework and menu system code (obvious from how menu system is lifted from AMH)
Oh and there's also this:

Ben get off of Pinside and shoot the next video for the mini pinball build with Element 14! Eagerly and impatiently waiting.

#1619 1 year ago

Can I offer a bit of design feedback, because having scrutinised the pictures I can see two potential long term problems with the layout straight off the bat. One of these should be a relatively easy fix; the other probably needs more of a rethink.

Point one: the Thunderbird 2 drop ramp. Assuming balls aren't going to get stuck under this, the metal edges of the ramp at the bottom are completely exposed. We had an issue for a short while during Alien development with ball scratching until we'd isolated the surface that was doing it - you're going to get the same thing here from ball hits to that ramp edge, and that will translate into playfield damage. The edge also looks low enough to cause horrific airballs. My advice: raise the height of the ramp edges, and attach a blue square rubber pad on either side that overlaps the front and protects the edge and the ball from each other. (George Gomez uses these a lot.) Problem solved.

Point two: there is nothing protecting the FAB1 shot wall from the activity of the pops close to it. This is never a good design idea. Go look up any game on the IPDB, and the pops are always surrounded by rubber or surfaces with plenty of give as much as possible, and metal is kept either a greater distance away or else is at a much more oblique angle to that of any ball hitting it. The pops on this game are going to be slamming into that guide wall, and especially since the wall is curved to create the dynamic of the shot, if it develops dent damage over time it's going to screw the shot up and ruin the game. This absolutely needs to be addressed in my opinion, even if it means taking out a pop and creating a secluded area of bounceback rubbers to create more bumper activity and provide a safe channel for the ball to leave the area.

#1620 1 year ago
Quoted from russdx:

I dont understand the "runs pc hardware" is not a commercial solution? nearly ALL systems these days are just a big system on chip running linux (ie i'm pretty sure this is what Sterns new system is) Its how every thing is done these days. And if future games are going to use lcd it will HAVE to be done this way!

Stern Spike 1 and 2 use Linux (Kernel 2.6.30). However, they really only use Linux to boot the system up. Everything else happens within a large static binary which is comparable to the firmware in an embedded controller. I don't see many technical differences except ideological ones. Running that a Spike binary on another PC is also not such a big problem. Try that with the firmware of another model of an embedded controller.

#1621 1 year ago
Quoted from russdx:

I dont understand the "runs pc hardware" is not a commercial solution? nearly ALL systems these days are just a big system on chip running linux (ie i'm pretty sure this is what Sterns new system is) Its how every thing is done these days.

Stern runs Linux on what is technically a PC (SPIKE is ARM-based). JJP runs Linux - Ubuntu I believe.

Mike is just stuck in the 90's mindset.

#1622 1 year ago

If you want fancy lcd video it is your only option really unless you have a secondary video controller. But you may as well stick the whole thing on it!

Running linux gives you so many options its crazy not to go down that route these days.

Also not offering sd/usb upgrades is suicide that literally is going back to the 80s (swapping chips) I think most games should be able to do OTA upgrades these days via ethernet as well as the standard usb stick option. But having to swap out a physical chip is crazy this would annoy the crap out of me!

#1623 1 year ago
Quoted from Pmuis:

You didn't give permission? Are you going to take legal steps?

TAG IP holders won't be happy that their license is running on a dubiously legal platform. The issue here is (I believe) the 'non-commerical' clause in the license Ben linked to:

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/

My crystal ball is telling me we'll see a response from Mike in the next couple of weeks along the lines of:

'It was a prototype, that's what we cobbled together to get it running but delivered hardware will be completely different'

#1624 1 year ago

The ability for color Spooky games to update themselves over SD card is purely software.

The Homepin clone would have this same ability if his programmers were clever enough to figure out how I did it (now that we are closed source)

Regarding swapping chips. The game code is embedded on flash INSIDE the PIC32, which is a surface mount IC with 100 tiny pins.

http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC32MX795F512L

An end user would have to be a PCB rework technician to swap that.

#1625 1 year ago

That's consistent to the head 2 head podcast with Mike.. board swaps to upgrade code , but it'll be perfect on first pass so no big deal.

#1626 1 year ago

Oh so you need to swap a whole board to get new firmware? I assume you return the old one?

Crazy way of updating literally from1970s!
Its 2017 now, needs to be usb,sd,wifi,bluetooth

#1627 1 year ago

Interesting. So it appears since the earlier open source code didn't include the SD update capability, Homepin stopped there and hence you have a board that can't be updated. Wow, just wow. It sounds like if you want an updated software you'll have to buy a new board (not send yours away to china that would be nuts).

Quoted from benheck:

The ability for color Spooky games to update themselves over SD card is purely software.
The Homepin clone would have this same ability if his programmers were clever enough to figure out how I did it (now that we are closed source)
Regarding swapping chips. The game code is embedded on flash INSIDE the PIC32, which is a surface mount IC with 100 tiny pins.
http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC32MX795F512L
An end user would have to be a PCB rework technician to swap that.

#1628 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

not send yours away to china that would be nuts

The h2h podcast interview implied if they did ever need a software upgrade they could send a bunch of boards to their distributors and people can exchange with them vs all the way back to China.

#1629 1 year ago

Hopefully there is an usb socket on there some where connected to the pic chip so future updates can be done over usb once the functionality is figured out.

No one will be upgrading the firmware if its a complete board swap. Is it a little daughter board swap? Or literally the whole controller board?

#1630 1 year ago
Quoted from russdx:

No one will be upgrading the firmware if its a complete board swap. Is it a little daughter board swap? Or literally the whole controller board?

Just another clusterfuk to be dealt with never. There are so many things wrong with this project...

#1631 1 year ago

Id be more worried about the hardware / firmware is technically illegal? If found to be a direct copy of Bens open source project as its breaking his license.

#1632 1 year ago

Should have just used P-ROC like a bunch of upcoming and shipping games now. It's a proven, working platform.

#1633 1 year ago

Or FastPinball

Nothing wrong with the BenHeck system you just need permission!

10
#1634 1 year ago

A few years back Chuck got wind of someone (not Mike) trying to build an AMH from scratch (like when NBA Fastbreak gets turned into MM) so we took down all source code and started to only provide HEX for updates (pre-compiled)

I wrote the auto-update code after we went closed-source (for RZ) So the auto-updating trick has never been publicly available, which is why Mike's boards can't update themselves via SD.

Swapping out "boards", the best way to do that would be a MCU module like this but would be very expensive:
http://www.microchip.com/DevelopmentTools/ProductDetails.aspx?PartNO=MA330030

Shipping stuff (like replacement boards) out of China is cheap thanks to this loophole:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/?utm_term=.cd29de4a4dfa

But customers sending boards back would be a nightmare.

Also, here's the Iron Man "Icing Problem?" moment! There's a bug in the AMH SD handling routine that can cause the display to lock up, and we fixed it AFTER we went closed source. Oops!

#1635 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

...Also, here's the Iron Man "Icing Problem?" moment! There's a bug in the AMH SD handling routine that can cause the display to lock up, and we fixed it AFTER we went closed source. Oops!

Oops is right. That will be a big giveaway and problem.

I only checked in this thread recently and went from interested to keep this guy away pretty quick. I hope people with their wallets out go into this eyes wide open.

#1636 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

A few years back Chuck got wind of someone (not Mike) trying to build an AMH from scratch (like when NBA Fastbreak gets turned into MM) so we took down all source code and started to only provide HEX for updates (pre-compiled)
I wrote the auto-update code after we went closed-source (for RZ) So the auto-updating trick has never been publicly available, which is why Mike's boards can't update themselves via SD.
Swapping out "boards", the best way to do that would be a MCU module like this but would be very expensive:
http://www.microchip.com/DevelopmentTools/ProductDetails.aspx?PartNO=MA330030
Shipping stuff (like replacement boards) out of China is cheap thanks to this loophole:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/?utm_term=.cd29de4a4dfa
But customers sending boards back would be a nightmare.
Also, here's the Iron Man "Icing Problem?" moment! There's a bug in the AMH SD handling routine that can cause the display to lock up, and we fixed it AFTER we went closed source. Oops!

If you was going to go down the daughter board route you could just create your own tiny pcb with just the PIC on it and a header with only the pins that are actually needed for coms(i assume only a few) plus vcc and gnd

Still a very bad solution to solve a very simple problem!

-7
#1637 1 year ago

It's pretty telling that he hasn't come here to defend himself and the Bogan Brigade hasn't either.

11
#1638 1 year ago
Quoted from Drenden:

It's pretty telling that he hasn't come here to defend himself and the Bogan Brigade hasn't either.

Spoken like a true keyboard warrior.

#1639 1 year ago
Quoted from Drenden:

It's pretty telling that he hasn't come here to defend himself and the Bogan Brigade hasn't either.

I resemble that comment

OI! OI! OI!

#1640 1 year ago

Maybe instead of updating the board and having to mail it away for a new one Mike will take the DLC route and just charge a set fee to ship you a new board. I know this is not ideal. I really don't want pinball to go the route of Sony and Microsoft with DLC.

In the Head2Head podcast Mike stated that he stuck with boards because they were proven. I believe he said something along the lines of, let's set were PC base pinball machines are 20 years from now with an air or they will be obsolete or non-functional. When I heard that on the podcast I thought to myself, "Uh... 20 years from now ever board in a pinball machine will be non-existant. We already have PCs on USB drives so maybe those Linux chips will be obsolete, but they'll be easily replaced with something even smaller and faster. Look at MAME as a prime example of how technology has advanced."

#1641 1 year ago
Quoted from Fifty:

"Uh... 20 years from now ever board in a pinball machine will be non-existant.

the prevalence of solid state pinballs with 40+ year old boards suggests this thought is flawed.

#1642 1 year ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

the prevalence of solid state pinballs with 40+ year old boards suggests this thought is flawed.

When I thought it, I had newer games in mind, games that run off PCs now, not SS games.

#1643 1 year ago
Quoted from Drenden:

It's pretty telling that he hasn't come here to defend himself and the Bogan Brigade hasn't either.

may the Bogans from Logan , park their commodore in your driveway

#1644 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericc123:

Nothing about this project has seemed cool for awhile now.

Quoted from SadSack:

There are so many things wrong with this project...

time to punt

punt01 (resized).jpg

#1645 1 year ago

Hooley dooley that's an old footy card!
The Chief would be happy with that one...

#1646 1 year ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

Spoken like a true keyboard warrior.

Yet here you are not defending him. I’m hardly a keyboard warrior. I would tell him to his face that I hate IP theft. As a writer, plagiarism is a huge deal and issue. This is the equivalent, possibly worse, as there is money tied to the original development.

#1647 1 year ago
Quoted from Drenden:

He has said this many times. It’s just age and ignorance. He better never fly on a plane made in the last decade. They all use pc “components” and Linux.

That’s not true at all. For IFE systems, sure....not much else. Google it, there is lots of interesting reading.

#1648 1 year ago

Board swaps to safely update code, or not easily removable flash storage to make it a LOT harder for people to dump the code and dissect it?

You be the judge.

Exhibit A: all the"fried" USB updatable Spooky, JJP and Stern boards....or lack there of.

#1649 1 year ago
Quoted from lemonski:

That’s not true at all. For IFE systems, sure....not much else. Google it, there is lots of interesting reading.

If you think just the IFE systems use that, try ripping open a glass cockpit like the garmin 1000. Then get back to me

#1650 1 year ago
Quoted from Drenden:

If you think just the IFE systems use that, try ripping open a glass cockpit like the garmin 1000. Then get back to me

Since you said "a plane made in the last decade..[]..all use pc “components” and Linux", which I take it includes any plane one would commonly fly on, if I pull out all the critical avionics of a Boeing or Airbus, I would find lots of PC components and Linux?

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