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(Topic ID: 222727)

Homebrew Webbing - step by step


By SilverWings

2 years ago



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  • 52 posts
  • 16 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 50 days ago by redrock
  • Topic is favorited by 39 Pinsiders

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    There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    15
    #1 2 years ago

    Here's one way to get some pretty darn good webbing done without too much hassle. Forget the rattle can stuff - we're gonna cook up a homebrew recipe here. All you'll need is a small siphon feed paint gun to shoot the webbing mixture, and the usual painting tools.

    The project for the test here is a Gottlieb Bonanza. Old school paint from 1964. Base off-white, pretty thin webbing on this particular one and really basic red/blue artwork on top. The approach I'm taking has been chosen to obtain the most accurate repro look possible with the minimum time and money.

    Our cabinet was stripped, sanded & repaired, and two coats of Zinsser primer/sealer applied, sanded between coats. The base off-white is flat latex sprayed on. Another way to get a nice smooth finish would be to mix some Floetrol into the latex, then roll on with a foam roller. Very little "stipple" in the base coat that way. Now its time for the webbing:

    The webbing technique is one I found on a gun restoration forum. They use paint and glue to make a paint that will spray and web. For this post, I will share with you my test shots - failures and success both.

    The recipe used is three ingredients: 1) Black lacquer 2) Glue and 3) Lacquer thinner
    The ratios of these ingredients matter tremendously. However - by mixing our own webbing paint we can alter the ingredients and achieve any kind of result we want.

    Now the details: for paint, I'm using Duplicolor Black Lacquer:
    DupliColor Black lacquer

    I managed to find a quart of it at my local auto parts store. (FYI - I did attempt to make a webbing mixture with oil based enamel, and glue but nothing worked. The only paint I find that works is lacquer)

    The glue used for this mixture is called "Beacon Multi-Grip", available at WalMart:
    MultiGrip (resized).jpg

    Multi-Grip is a very high strength, clear, medium bodied, fast curing, bodied solvent-type acrylic cement. Its similar but a little thinner than something like Weld-On 16, but I believe Weld-On 16 would also work (disclaimer: I haven't tested W-16 yet)

    And finally, for spraying the webbing I opted to use a standard siphon feed touch-up paint gun. The gun I use is very similar to the one Harbor Freight sells (HF item item number 66871):
    HF paint gun (resized).jpg

    Time to go do some test shoots! For each shoot I will show you the recipe ratios, the gun and air settings and a picture of the results. Note that as I go from one shoot to the next, only one variable (mixture %, needle setting or air pressure) will be changed. That way we can see how making changes to each variable affects the outcome. So keep track of what's being tweaked between shoots and then compare results to get a feel for how things go:

    SHOOT 1: 80% paint / 20% glue / 40 psi / 2 turns open on the needle
    Shoot 1 (resized).jpg

    SHOOT 2: 66% paint / 33% glue / 40 psi / 2 turns
    Shoot 2 (resized).jpg

    SHOOT 3: 66% paint / 33% glue / 40 psi / 1-1/2 turns
    Shoot 3 (resized).jpg

    SHOOT 4: 66% paint / 33% glue / 50 psi / 1-1/2 turns
    Shoot 4 (resized).jpg

    SHOOT 5: 75% paint / 25% glue / 50 psi / 1-1/2 turns
    Shoot 5 (resized).jpg

    SHOOT 6: 75% paint / 25% glue / 40 psi / 3/4 turn
    Shoot 6 (resized).jpg

    SHOOT 7: 65% paint / 25% glue / 10% lacquer thinner / 40 psi / 3/4 turn
    Shoot 7 (resized).jpg

    Shoot 7 was the look I wanted. Fine webbing - sort of like Angel Hair type. Note how the addition of only 10% lacquer thinner stopped the "blobbing" issue. This is pretty much a dead-on perfect copy of how this old Bonanza cab was originally done.

    Using the recipe from Shoot 7 again I (bravely) went out and shot the whole thing with it.
    Final (resized).jpg

    Love the results! The webbing worked great, had super good adhesion and was easy to apply. None of these were done using any "fan" air on the gun. Also do pay close attention to the needle setting. You can greatly vary the webbing thickness with more or less needle. I found that +/- only 1/8 of a turn made a difference.

    Advantages to making your own webbing paint:
    - infinitely variable effects depending on how its mixed
    - mix custom colors
    - much better surface adhesion than rattle-can stuff
    - cheaper
    - larger spray pattern makes it easier to apply a "random" look
    - funner!

    #2 2 years ago

    Fantastic work. Thanks for posting so many details and the results of your experiments.

    Yves

    #3 2 years ago

    The outputs across the Shoot variations were very interesting, Bill.

    It was nice of you to detail the work, and the cabinet webbing looks great!

    #4 2 years ago

    Most excellent !

    #5 2 years ago

    Thanks for sharing your knowledge

    #6 2 years ago

    I feel threatened

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinhead52:

    I feel threatened

    Nah! You firmly kicked our butts @ Cactus Jacks last night!

    Now: y'all should know how much help Ken Head (aka P-52) has been in achieving a successful outcome here. There are a number of other details involved in getting a cabinet webbed properly; also in getting top notch results using stencils or templates to apply the cab art over the webbing. I'm an experienced painter, but still there are many ways a job like this can end in disaster, and Ken has been a major help in my own education in doing cab repaint work.

    2 months later
    #8 1 year ago

    Great results!!!
    What did you use to measure the ratios? As you likely won't need a lot of paint to web a cabinet

    #9 1 year ago

    Best thread on this topic yet.

    Going to get a gun specifically for this as I don’t want to screw with my nice gun. Can you detail what gun you have exactly. If it’s not super spendy I think you may be able to sell a few

    Also going to get paint and glue your using. Thanks for this, it’s timed perfectly and I have been researching this as it’s my next step on a restore.

    1 week later
    #10 1 year ago

    dudah - For measuring quantities I simply used small ratio cups obtained from a local hobby store. They’re also widely available online. The ratios were all done by volume, not by weight. But if you wanted to figure out a weight:volume relationship for the paint/glue/lacquer an accurate scale could also be used to set your ratios. And yeah I think you could web a whole cab with maybe 3 ounces of sprayable material total. Not much!

    rufessor - the spray gun I used is a 20+ years old (Sears Craftsman branded) touch-up siphon feed gun but it’s nearly identical to the HF model pictured above. The main thing is that you use a siphon feed gun not HVLP as I believe it’s important to have the higher nozzle pressure to spit and sort of sling this heavy paint mixture out and get the webbing to behave correctly. I haven’t tested any HVLP guns for this but I think they just operate at too low pressure to work. These simple siphon feed guns are pretty cheap, like in the $20 range.

    #11 1 year ago

    Many thanks. I have been toying with a new cab for my Atlantis. This was the stumbling block. Thanks again. Very descriptive for a noob like me

    2 months later
    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from GPS:

    Many thanks. I have been toying with a new cab for my Atlantis. This was the stumbling block. Thanks again. Very descriptive for a noob like me

    Atlantis's cabinet background is spatter, not webbing.

    6 months later
    #13 1 year ago

    Just wanted to thank silverwings for this posting! I have two projects that need webbing and finally had some time to mix up the various chemicals and give it a shot. Dusted off an antique Sharpe gun that had been kicking around my toolbox for damn near 30 years.

    Since I was missing that correct mixing device I improvised! It lacquer thinner is 10% of the mix I made that my base with it being a 1/2 once, glue being an 1.5 ounce and paint being roughly 3.5 ounces. Got a big piece of cardboard out and started fiddling with the dials!

    With a little practice it was fairly easy to get the density of webbing I wanted after tweaking the dials and speed of sweep.

    Thank you! I have two cabinets to do and feel better about being able to do them proper.

    Gary

    P.S. The webbing shown below is just a practice piece that I had gone over a few times to get the hang of it and not representative of what the final will look like.

    20190804_175329 (resized).jpg
    #14 1 year ago

    Webbing done, very pleased with the results.

    20190806_170819_resized (resized).jpg
    #15 1 year ago

    This is awesome!

    I would need a whole setup, could someone please tell me what time of air compressor, gun, etc. I would need? Also how do you clean the gun when finished?

    #16 1 year ago
    Quoted from Xenon75:

    This is awesome!
    I would need a whole setup, could someone please tell me what time of air compressor, gun, etc. I would need? Also how do you clean the gun when finished?

    You don't need a lot of air compressor to do the job, cabinet took me less than 5 minutes at 40 psi, so not a lot of volume used. I spent more time looking, shoot, look, shoot, etc. I bet I could do the next one under a minute.

    sweep, sweep, sweep, sweep, done.

    Gun is listed- Any old school siphon gun will do I think, mine is over 30 years old. I bet you can still find them cheap.

    I just cleaned up with acetone, cleans up fast.

    #17 1 year ago

    HF used to have this for 16, now amazon amazon.com link »

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    You don't need a lot of air compressor to do the job, cabinet took me less than 5 minutes at 40 psi, so not a lot of volume used. I spent more time looking, shoot, look, shoot, etc. I bet I could do the next one under a minute.
    sweep, sweep, sweep, sweep, done.
    Gun is listed- Any old school siphon gun will do I think, mine is over 30 years old. I bet you can still find them cheap.
    I just cleaned up with acetone, cleans up fast.

    I used a vertical feed HVLP with great results.
    Agreed, once you have it dialed in, only takes a minute to lay it down.

    #19 1 year ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    I used a vertical feed HVLP with great results.
    Agreed, once you have it dialed in, only takes a minute to lay it down.

    I have two HVLP vertical guns, I'll have to give it a shot and report results.

    2 weeks later
    #20 1 year ago

    gdonovan - Fantastic results. Nice work there!

    Did you use the Beacon glue, or another brand/type? I suspect that almost any clear acrylic glue would work.

    Bill.

    #21 1 year ago

    Too heavy. They never had webbing like that from the factory.

    Money with just a Weiler brush and plain old Americana out of the bottle20190504_112243 (resized).jpg20190529_133216 (resized).jpg

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    Too heavy. They never had webbing like that from the factory.

    I have seen a wide variation of webbing from almost none to fairly heavy. My Domino is fairly light, the inside cabinet of Hearts and Spades was fairly dense. All going to depend on who was manning the paint gun that day and how diligent they were.

    #23 1 year ago

    Here's a KoD that had some intense webbing.

    20190824_145711_resized (resized).jpg20190824_145723_resized (resized).jpg
    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinhead52:

    Here's a KoD that had some intense webbing.[quoted image][quoted image]

    Someone fell asleep at the gun. That's atrocious.

    #25 1 year ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    Someone fell asleep at the gun. That's atrocious.

    Wide variations are the norm. Seen the same thing when restoring cars.

    One has neat undercoating and the next looks like the new guy in training was given the gun after a six pack lunch. The discussions over what is correct gets rather heated at times.

    If they were all uniform considering how many were made and how webbing is applied it would be a miracle.

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from SilverWings:

    gdonovan - Fantastic results. Nice work there!
    Did you use the Beacon glue, or another brand/type? I suspect that almost any clear acrylic glue would work.
    Bill.

    Be honest, most of the glue seemed to clump up in the bottom of the gun. The next cab I do I'm going to leave the glue out and see what it looks like on a test piece.

    #27 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinhead52:

    Here's a KoD that had some intense webbing.

    Must have been a rookie working that day. They all had to learn sometime.

    #28 1 year ago

    Mine turned out great.
    Compared it to a factory paint job and it was very similar.
    I eyeballed the measurements from post #1 and dialed it on my Harbor Freight HVLP gun.
    Practiced on some cardboard then laid it down real quick.
    Easy.

    DSCN4774 (resized).JPGDSCN4781 (resized).JPG

    #29 1 year ago

    Great thread.

    #30 1 year ago

    Great thread indeed. BTW, does this LVLP siphon gun from HF look like it would do the job? Currently around $19.
    https://www.harborfreight.com/33-oz-lvlp-general-purpose-air-spray-gun-61455.html

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    Great thread indeed. BTW, does this LVLP siphon gun from HF look like it would do the job? Currently around $19.
    https://www.harborfreight.com/33-oz-lvlp-general-purpose-air-spray-gun-61455.html

    I would think. The earlier version was nothing special.

    #32 1 year ago

    Ok, another silly question... are you guys using black paint for webbing or something more dark gray? It seems like the webbing I’ve seen on most games looks a little more dark gray than plain old black. Maybe it’s once mixed with glue or when it’s “slung” out to make a web pattern that it just looks lighter.

    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    Ok, another silly question... are you guys using black paint for webbing or something more dark gray? It seems like the webbing I’ve seen on most games looks a little more dark gray than plain old black. Maybe it’s once mixed with glue or when it’s “slung” out to make a web pattern that it just looks lighter.

    Just black paint

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    Ok, another silly question... are you guys using black paint for webbing or something more dark gray? It seems like the webbing I’ve seen on most games looks a little more dark gray than plain old black. Maybe it’s once mixed with glue or when it’s “slung” out to make a web pattern that it just looks lighter.

    amazon.com link »

    #35 1 year ago

    The Pinballpimp stencils I just received mention twice not to use lacquer as it messes with the stencils. Earlier in this thread was mentioned that black enamel didn’t work well with webbing. So... what to do? I was going to experiment again with black enamel to see if I have any luck getting a webbing effect on some scrap poster boards. Not trying to over think this, but I’d hate to use that black lacquer for the webbing then have issues with $150 stencils.

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    The Pinballpimp stencils I just received mention twice not to use lacquer as it messes with the stencils. Earlier in this thread was mentioned that black enamel didn’t work well with webbing. So... what to do? I was going to experiment again with black enamel to see if I have any luck getting a webbing effect on some scrap poster boards. Not trying to over think this, but I’d hate to use that black lacquer for the webbing then have issues with $150 stencils.

    I'd touch base with them and ask for a clarification.

    Not to use lacquer webbing or lacquer for your primary colors. The webbing is so fine and generally sparse I doubt it would be an issue with stencils but it doesn't hurt to ask.

    #37 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    Ok, another silly question... are you guys using black paint for webbing or something more dark gray? It seems like the webbing I’ve seen on most games looks a little more dark gray than plain old black. Maybe it’s once mixed with glue or when it’s “slung” out to make a web pattern that it just looks lighter.

    When I respray the thinned Krylon webbing I sometimes use their silver lava spray if I want a lighter appearance. But the paint used when mixing with glue is shown in the very first message of this thread... Ive got an automotive silver I use as well

    #38 1 year ago

    gdonovan my thoughts exactly. I’m reaching out to PinballPimp to get some clarification and advice.

    #39 1 year ago

    I checked w/ Jeff at PinballPimp and got some clarification regarding lacquer and the stencils. If lacquer is applied to the stencils, it supposedly reacts with the vinyl and turns the stencils to a "marshmallow"-like goo. Not good. But, applying vinyl stencils to a base coat that has lacquer webbing that has already dried isn't a problem and won't harm the stencils.

    #40 1 year ago

    Webbing done and I’m pleased with the results. I pretty much followed the #7 formula in post 1, but used clear Gorilla glue as I couldn’t find the other stuff mentioned locally.

    4651C048-461D-49F0-906D-9E5968369E82 (resized).jpegA381C657-3078-49D6-ABA9-5511E629E301 (resized).jpegB9B6A0B3-41F9-4E50-BB2E-437135C0C41C (resized).jpegDF9DB8E9-35B2-41B2-8D3B-8540F29A9316 (resized).jpeg
    #41 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    I checked w/ Jeff at PinballPimp and got some clarification regarding lacquer and the stencils. If lacquer is applied to the stencils, it supposedly reacts with the vinyl and turns the stencils to a "marshmallow"-like goo. Not good. But, applying vinyl stencils to a base coat that has lacquer webbing that has already dried isn't a problem and won't harm the stencils.

    I don't think this is true for all lacquers. Jeff might have had that happen at some point but it doesn't mean you can never use lacquers.

    I'm restoring a Big Indian. Next up in line is Atlantis. The paint for the brown part of Atlantis is Montana White Kidney Beans, which is a glossy synthetic lacquer of some kind. I took the used stencil from Big Indian and sprayed that Kidney Beans lacquer on the stencil. Didn't do a thing to the stencil.

    You can always cut off a small piece of the stencil material and spray it and find out of you get any reaction. Then just tape over that part when you actually lay the stencil out.

    pinhead52 reported the same experience as I had shooting lacquer onto the stencil material. No different reaction than enamels.

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from rlbohon3:

    Webbing done and I’m pleased with the results. I pretty much followed the #7 formula in post 1, but used clear Gorilla glue as I couldn’t find the other stuff mentioned locally.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    A few questions. What game is this? Is the pedestal already screwed back in? Normally pedestal on Gottlieb games has a color paint and only about six inches of the front shows the base coat.

    Also, did you make sure the legs will clear that added wood on the back? Looks tight.

    #43 1 year ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    I don't think this is true for all lacquers. Jeff might have had that happen at some point but it doesn't mean you can never use lacquers.
    I'm restoring a Big Indian. Next up in line is Atlantis. The paint for the brown part of Atlantis is Montana White Kidney Beans, which is a glossy synthetic lacquer of some kind. I took the used stencil from Big Indian and sprayed that Kidney Beans lacquer on the stencil. Didn't do a thing to the stencil.
    You can always cut off a small piece of the stencil material and spray it and find out of you get any reaction. Then just tape over that part when you actually lay the stencil out.
    pinhead52 reported the same experience as I had shooting lacquer onto the stencil material. No different reaction than enamels.

    Good to know that you had a different experience with lacquer. That's really interesting. Definitely good advise to just test it on a piece of stencil material.

    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    A few questions. What game is this? Is the pedestal already screwed back in? Normally pedestal on Gottlieb games has a color paint and only about six inches of the front shows the base coat.
    Also, did you make sure the legs will clear that added wood on the back? Looks tight.

    I'm restoring a Gottlieb King of Diamonds (ironically, post #23 is also of KoD... w/ some pretty heavy webbing).

    The pedestal is in. Actually, I never removed it. I did notice that only about 6" in the front center typically shows the webbing, but didn't pick up on that before I had already sprayed the off-white and webbing. I've sprayed the 1st stencil (yellow) on both the cabinet and head and 2nd stencil on the head and addressed the pedestal.

    As for the skids I added to the back, thanks for mentioning the clearance w/ the legs but fortunately I already accounted for that. There's about 3/8" clearance from the wood to the leg edge.

    One more thing to note on the webbing; when I starting spraying my stenciled yellow, it was apparent it wasn't going to cover the webb'd paint under neath. I grabbed my Kilz and added a layer (over the yellow attempt), waited 5 minutes or so then went ahead and sprayed the yellow again. Much better. When it was time to spray red, I preceded it with a layer of Kilz but honestly not sure it was necessary since the red is much darker than yellow.

    IMG_4264 (resized).JPGIMG_4266 (resized).JPGIMG_4276 2 (resized).JPGIMG_4277 (resized).JPG
    #44 1 year ago

    nice job. I do a light sand of the webbing to remove the raised pieces before i apply the art.

    #45 1 year ago

    If you look at factory original paint, quite often you can see the webbing underneath the artwork, especially on colors like yellow that don't have a lot of pigment and don't cover underlying paints well.

    Another good reason not to go too heavy on the webbing. The more of that there is, the harder it is for the artwork colors to cover it up.

    1 week later
    #46 1 year ago

    A webbing of the day (will be a King of Diamonds) using the respray diluted Krylon method. Works well for me. A little heavy but this game was that way.

    20190915_121721_resized (resized).jpg20190915_121742_resized (resized).jpg20190915_121819_resized (resized).jpg20190915_121830_resized (resized).jpg20190915_121838_resized (resized).jpg
    #47 1 year ago

    Hey Ken! Looking GREAT as always on that KOD.

    For what its worth, mine here is even heavier than that. "Thicker" would best describe it:

    KOD_Webbing (resized).jpg
    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinhead52:

    A webbing of the day (will be a King of Diamonds) using the respray diluted Krylon method.

    Looks great! Your webbing turned out a little more, well, web-like. Very nice. Mine ended up with a little more speckle, though I like both. Btw, mine is all back together now and I’m really pleased with the results.

    2 weeks later
    #49 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Be honest, most of the glue seemed to clump up in the bottom of the gun. The next cab I do I'm going to leave the glue out and see what it looks like on a test piece.

    This turned into a dead end- No matter the ratio of paint to thinner or gun settings produced any webbing. Gave a healthy blob of glue into the gun paint cup, mixed and webbing arrived. Lesson learned!

    20190929_141856_resized (resized).jpg20190929_144720_resized (resized).jpg20190929_144832_resized (resized).jpg
    #50 1 year ago

    I conducted a series of tests: various glues and paints to see where the paint + glue would be compatible.

    The only combination I found was lacquer paint + acrylic glue. Everything else turned into globs of snot, unshootable goop, or a kind of tar like residue that was just nasty. Initially, I wanted to use oil based enamel as my paint base, but never found a glue that would work with it.

    So, from my limited knowledge of this: the paint + glue used must be compatible. They must mix - not like thinner would, but at least they must not generate goopy junk that in and of itself remains basically separate from the rest of the mixture. Then, when its shot, it dries and strings up SO FAST that in mid-air, it generates the webbing.

    Apart from taking 1000 frames per second video of this stuff emitting from the paint gun -- that's my *theory* on how webbing works as its applied from a sprayed source. The lacquer/glue mixture I used sprayed easily and produced webbing that had fantastic adhesion and very very low build height on the surface. Absolutely no need to sand or scrape off high spots with this it just lays down perfectly.

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