Home for the Gottlieb SYS1-SYS80B guys, Yep it's a club :)

(Topic ID: 73213)

Home for the Gottlieb SYS1-SYS80B guys, Yep it's a club :)

By Gerry

5 years ago

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#994 2 years ago
Quoted from gutz:

I am looking for a working system 1 three tone sound board. The simple one that was used in Solar ride, count-down, etc. PM me if you have one for sale.

UGG! Put a chime box in instead. Or: Pascal's board has the tone generators built in and then you can get back some of the cost by selling your working CPU board!

1 month later
#1040 2 years ago

If Steve at PBR has hardware, then it probably came from the Gottlieb / Premier assests He would be the one to ask if no one else chimes in.

3 weeks later
#1101 2 years ago
Quoted from supermoot:

One of my flippers has been sticking up on Hollywood Heat. The actuator has worn a groove into the new eos I installed less than a year ago. It gets hung up a little. I fixed it temporarily by wiggling the stack to a different angle. Anyone see anything like this happen before? Is the switch metal just too soft?

Very common problem when we were operating Gottlieb pins back in the day.

Like you did, rotate the switch stack a little to use a new spot on the EOS leaf. Put a dab of super lube on the spot to reduce friction/wear.

You can always add a blank leaf blade to you existing switch stack to get a fresh surface.

2 months later
#1113 2 years ago

Both bolts lock the collar to the flipper shaft. Both must be loosened to do either adjustment (hieght or rotation). You will also find the set screws have made a diver in the flipper shaft and they might keep slipping back into the old position. If this happens, swap right and left flippers for a fresh spot on the shaft.

#1115 2 years ago

That should have read divot, not diver.

How was the 4th instalment if Bourne?

7 months later
#1306 1 year ago
Quoted from Insane:

Quick question, I recently got my Joker Poker up and running again. I have replaced every diode in the game (as was advised by Ace at Niwumph to hopefully fix a problem with repeatedly blowing one of the mosfets). now when I play, the 100's chime coil seems to "bounce" If you are playing, you hear the chimes hit, then you can feel it continue to bounce. I don't know if it has always done that, or if it supposed to be still chiming and isn't hitting the chime plate after the first hit. I double checked I have the diode installed correctly. I will try to remove the chime assembly and examine closer this weekend, just thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas first.

typical reaction (for scoring 5 pulses) when the plunger is a bit gummed up. Plunger never gets low enough to go back up so it kind of oscillates in the middle until the 5th pulse and then it settles down. Usually works okay for single score events.

Also keep In mind there was one set of Rockwell chips that were a little faster for bonus collect since once they went to electronic sounds, they could send sounds faster.

#1311 1 year ago
Quoted from SLCpunk2113:

Hi all, Just brought home a Gold Wings so I am now officially a member of this club. It isn't fully working yet but I plan on doing ground mods and I am considering buying a Piggy Deux for it. Anyone have one of those installed on your games? Did it solve any problems when you did?

Yes. Had a Hollywood Heat that would occasionally lock up during play (display go blank, etc. etc.). A Piggy Deux was purchased, EPROM transferred, and board installed. Problems went away. I also made my own harness to keep the Watchdog Reset board attached to the system.

#1322 1 year ago

The Tilt relay will disconnect power to all the solenoids you mentioned as well as turn off playfield GI. So it sounds like that relay is stuck on.

4 weeks later
#1355 1 year ago

There is a fix to add a pull up (or is it down?) Resistor to insure the transistors turn off when they should. I am guessing that what you are seeing.

#1358 1 year ago

No, the resistors are added only to insure the transistors go completely off when they are supposed to be off. If they are not turning on, that is a completely different problem.

#1360 1 year ago

SS games don't work like an EM. A stuck score switch isn't going to keep a bell chime coil energized. The computer is in between and in control. It will only read the switch once until it opens​ and closes again. And it will only energize the chime coil for a set amount of time.

Instead, I would suspect a bad, broken, or poorly soldered diode across the chime coil. For $0.09, just clip and replace. If it continues to take out the drive transistor, then I would suspect the coil.

This is assuming you have properly serviced (cleaned, repinned) the interconnect cable and done the added wires and ground mods to insure the signals going to the driver board are correct.

#1373 1 year ago

Those white push buttons are notorious for not making contact. Did you try a jumper across the lugs of the test Switch?

#1379 1 year ago

Am I missing something here? Or did you neglect to plug in the Playfield and Cabinet Connectors into your new board? They were the two harnesses shown in the first picture with the blue replacement Edge Connectors.

#1381 1 year ago

From BorgDog's posting above of the switch wiring, you can remove A6J1 and use a jumper to jumper A6J1 pin 1 to pin 2 on the PCB to act as the TEST switch and see if that works.

#1383 1 year ago

OOPS! Sorry about that. It is connector A1-J6 in your photo. That is the switch matrix and slam/tilt switch inputs to the cabinet. The larger one above (A1-J7) are the switch connections to the Playfield.

So, yes, there are connectors in between the edge connectors and final destinations.

And, as you may know, Gottlieb diagrams are typically not posted on the Internet so it may have to wait until I get home to look at a manual unless someone else chimes in.

#1386 1 year ago

Thank you, BorgDog!!!!!

So, you will need to jumper A1J6 Pin 3 to A1J6 Pin 8. This will jumper Switch Strobe 0 to Switch Return 0.

I can't remember if the Pascal Janin board has a dip-shunt jumper (one of those little shorting blocks that straddles two pins) to add the Slam Switch Jumper. I am thinking it does since your photo of the board seem to show one in the White Silk Screening of the board down by that connector. I also don't know what a Pascal Janin board will do if the SLAM switch input is not grounded. It might not go into test if it is showing an SLAM switch error.

#1387 1 year ago

Okay, just confirmed in the Pascal manual that there is a place to jumper the slam switch to ground (normal state of the switch - Normally Closed) to bypass the lack of the connector being plugged in. Page 20 of this manual:


And it will throw up a Slam Switch error if it doesn't see that input grounded.

2 weeks later
#1432 1 year ago

Looks like your 3 prong plug was wired wrong. To my knowledge, the ribbed wire on flat cords is normally neutral (white wire). If you bring up a photo of a duplex outlet, you will see the wide blade goes to the silver screws (white, neutral wire) and the narrow blade goes to the brass screw (black wire, hot or line).

Inside the game, the smooth side of the wire (narrow blade), should go to the line fuse and power switch side of the line filter.

#1440 1 year ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

On a System 1, could the interconnect harness in any way be responsible for blowing a driver board transistor and locking on a coil?

Yes, when the ground potential between the two boards gets too far out of alignment.

Bad connection from MPU to Driver board transistor causes one of the drive transistors to turn on a little, but not enough to actually move coil plunger. Therefore, player/owner may not notice anything is happening,..... yet.....

Coil begins to heat up.

Windings begin to burn enamel off wires and windings begin to short out.

Shorted windings on coil cause transistor to overheat and short out.


Transistor, since it is not fully turned on, creates a ton of internal heat.

Transistor can't take the heat, and shorts out.

Shorted transistor burns up coil.

Shorted coil and transistor blow fuse.

This is why the ground mods are so important on any Gottlieb System 1/80 game. All devices need to be at the same ground potential to insure off means OFF. Bad connections either through Interconnect harness, MPU power input connector, Power Regulator board connectors, or even the individual grounds to the various clusters of drive transistors can mean sure disaster. By common-izing all these grounds together, it minimizes the potential for this kind of failure.

#1442 1 year ago

As operators, we used to do that for certain games (like Eight Ball Deluxe) to drop the voltage a little. For a period, the Feature lamp power coming out of the Bally Transformers was a little high and was shortening the life of the incandescent lamps. By adding the bridge (but not exactly wired like that) you put two diodes in series with 2 of those in parallel which would drop the voltage about 1.4V.

However, if your games have LEDs being used for playfield GI, adding the bridge would rectify the AC into pulsating DC and cheap LEDs could be used. Unfortunately, they would be flashing at a rate of 60Hz (or 50 depending on your country) which would have a horrible strobing effect on the ball in motion.

#1443 1 year ago

BTW, I have never seen that done on a Gottlieb. So it would appear, your games both came from the same operator.

#1445 1 year ago
Quoted from 20eyes:

So they can be removed with no worries. I guess years ago they may have actually served a purpose to some degree. Its possible they came from the same op at some point as games travel over the years. I bought them a year apart from 2 different states...

Any idea if they might be re-import games?

3 months later
#1570 1 year ago

Check 5 volts when cold, then again when it starts to fail. See if it's dropping.

#1587 1 year ago

As was suggested, photos of the underside (solder) of the connector, top side male pins (connector unplugged), and the crimp pins above of the connector in question might shed some light on what's going on.

#1588 1 year ago

Another problem area it could be on an original System 80 power supply is at the TO-3 pass transistor. Both the lead furrels (brass tubes for the two leads) and the threaded parts may not be well soldered to the PCB traces. This can cause fluctuations in 5v.

Of course, you have to dismount the whole thing to check them.

#1597 1 year ago
Quoted from Antennaejim:

Crimped pins were replaced 2 days ago and are correct new contacts. The underside of the male pin is not rocket science (no offense intended) I have already reflowed and added new solder where needed under the board with dmm continuity at all points 5v. All traces make contact. The capacitor and transistor are the only parts that have not been rebuilt on the supply board

No offense intended from this end either but.....

I have been a bench tech for over 35 years and I have learned to trust only my own eyes when it comes to some things. Solder joints being one of them. I have received plenty of boards where people have "reflowed" the solder only to find there were still issues related to the solder quality. If you had said you had replaced the male pin connector too, then I would be less likely to want to see the solder joints. But I have seen some nasty pin quality out of Gottlieb connectors (system 1 and system 80's) even where the plating has dis-bonded from the actual pin metal.

The issue you seem to be experiencing (power loss which changes by flexing some part or portion of a board) appears to be one of the following:

Bad Solder Joint (solder not bonding to a pin or component lead)
Broken trace (small fracture typically near a connector pin island)
Bad connection from Female Crimp Pin to Male Pin surface.
Bad connection from wire strands to crimp pin contacts (many times I see people crimp a pin over the insulation at both places).
Bad surface on Voltage Adjustment pot (you state this has already been replaced).
(Extreme but I have seen it before) Bad connection to component lead INSIDE electrolytic capacitor.

Also another note: You state good continuity on all points 5V. By continuity do you mean Continuity "beep" of your meter? Or actually reading a ohm value and interpreting how low that ohm value actually is? On many meters, Continuity "BEEP" happens for anything under 200 or even 300 ohms depending on the meter. Anything higher than a dead short (same you get when touching your meter leads together) can be suspect when having to carry a lot of current as the 5V regulator circuit does.

Just trying to help figure out where the problem lies......

#1613 1 year ago
Quoted from statictrance:

I have a really dumb question - first time working on a system 1... The lock down bar... there isn't anything new or exciting about it, is there? Like it's pretty basic pull down the latch inside and pop the lock bar? Long story short, I think mine is frozen from rust or god knows what, but wanted to make sure before I 'manually try to unstick' it...

Yes, pretty straight forward. A system 1 game uses the Shark Fin style Lock down bar but essentially, the mechanism is exactly the same as the old PEG style bar. Same piece of metal must slide just below the assembly to clear the fins. And that's the problem, those two parts of metal lie flat against each other and can very easily get rusted together if lots of moisture finds its way in there.

The part you are grabbing should pivot down and to the left. At the end of it, there is a part that sticks up and engages with the slide.

#1616 1 year ago

If it powers up blank, has the normal delay, and THEN displays 000000, all the spider chips are probably good so then there will be resale value in the old board even though it's eaten up.

If it goes straight to 000000 instantly, there are probably other chip issues.

Pascal's All in ones are great, I even own one. Good for troubleshooting and great when all the boards are missing. But if the only thing bad is the MPU, a lower cost Niwupf might be a better choice.

#1625 1 year ago

Wow! 15 Spirits? Did you hold a Spirit tournament?

#1638 1 year ago
Quoted from statictrance:

ok - I was missing the extraction tool for the edge connectors. I have the trifurcons/crimp tool from my other pins. I believe Steve YOung has that... Between the all in one and that order this is going to be a painful 'for love of the game' restore that'll be a fun learning experience.

I am not sure exactly which connectors you are doing but you CANNOT use Trifuricon crimp pins in the Edge Connectors that slip over the edge of the PCB, only the flat faced ones.

IF you are repining the male header pins on a Power Supply connector, then the Trifuricons are the way to go.

By the way, you can make a decent pin extractor for the PC edge connector by hammering flat a Paper Clip and then grinding to fit the slot. Cheap and easy and if you bend it, just make another. Others have used small Jeweler's Screw drivers that fit the need.

1 month later
#1692 1 year ago
Quoted from Biffbar:

Which, if any, System 80 games came from the factory with doubled up rubber rings, or is that something the operator did? Wondering about Volcano and Black Hole, as I've seen multiple examples with two sets of rings on the kicking rubber posts, the slingshot posts, and behind the drop targets.

I could be wrong but I don't remember any games coming NIB with double rubbers (other than when Black Knight 2000 introduced the double rubber posts). That is something we did once the ball started getting stuck behind the rubber (usually at Drop Targets). Ballys seemed to be the worst. I would think just about every Captain Fantastic had double rubbers out on location. But that was to keep the ball from getting stuck in the slot for the DTs.

The reason (I think) a manufacturer wouldn't do it is because the second rubber ends up rather low on the center of the ball and causes the ball to launch in the air.

1 month later
#1724 1 year ago

I would start by ordering all new plungers and nylon coil sleeves. They will include the nylon link block where you may have some wear. First make sure you can slide the old sleeves out, otherwise, you will need a new coil too.

New coil stops won't effect the strength of the hit but may help quiet buzzing flippers with the new plungers (new plunger end may not seat well on to old coil stop).

I would say that that style Gottlieb flipper assy is traditionally weaker than the Bally.

Get yourself an ignition file (or flat needle file) and try to see if you can resurface the contacts on the EOS switches. You want clean, flat, unpitted surfaces. They are tungsten so it may be necessary to use a dremel grinding wheel (either the fiber one or stone, don't bother with a sanding drum, it will strip it instantly) to grind them flat. If there is no material left, you will need to replace them with new switches.

The new plungers will come without the peg sticking out. If your old nylon block has them, later, Gottlieb eliminated them as they were a cause for some drag.

1 week later
#1734 1 year ago
Quoted from pincity:

Looks like the referenced connectors are no longer available from Great Plains. I know I can order a rebuild kit from Docent for the full connector but didn't know if there was a more economical option since I just need the two additional connections?

If you are exclusively a "Pinhead", then probably not. But if you are also a "Vidiot" or know someone that is, you can scavenge the pins from a Black style (Amp brand I believe) JAMMA video game harness which uses the same types of pins. Just like the Gottlieb connector, the wires are crimped to the pins inside the connector. Not the Blue style with solder tabs where the wire has been soldered to the outside lug and covered with heat shrink. You would need to extract 4 of them and splice the wires together. The pins are easily extracted if you make an extraction tool by opening up a small paper clip, and hammering flat the end to form a very small rectangular stick. Then slide it in that small slot along the edge of the pin (from the PCB edge side) and you should be able to pull the pin and wire out the back.

#1737 1 year ago
Quoted from pincity:

Thanks CactusJack

Sadly I am only into pins at the moment so don’t have access to a JAMMA connector. I’ll keep an eye out for a junk harness I could scavenge from but now that I know a JAMMA type connector will work, I can keep an eye out for one of those also.

But only the black ones where the crimp pins slide in. Most of the cheap stuff on eBay are the solder lug style and won't work (in both black and blue, so beware).

#1740 1 year ago

Good find. I thought everyone was finally out of the individual crimp pins.

#1745 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinballer22:

Last issue with my Genesis and looking for direction.
Everything works great, ground mods completed and everything.
Issue: when either of the kickback targets are hit I lose sound. Doesn’t come back until another target gets hit. Any ideas?

Do the kickback targets have good diodes across the coils? Back EMF can send some nasty voltage spikes down the wiring. Since on Gottlieb games of that era, the Pops, Slings, and kicking targets are self controlled (leaf switch actually passes the voltage to the coil) there is no Semiconductor to short out and die telling you there is a diode problem.

Otherwise, the Kicking target should have a switch that armature hits when it goes to end of travel. This is the "scoring" switch that goes back to the CPU. Hand activate the switch and see if the sound turns off because you are hitting the switch and not energizing the coil.

#1748 1 year ago
Quoted from toasterman04:

Hey Guys... i am sure this is a long shot, but my motor went on the auger on my big house. I checked with Marco and PR and it is obsolete. is there anyone here with a chance they would have one lying around for sale?

I know it's not the best option but Steve at The Pinball Resource has the parts to rebuild your old motor if it is a multi products brand.

#1754 1 year ago

Not seeing a photo of your original, Pittman Motors makes a number of 24v in line gearbox motors with all sorts of gear ratios. Plenty of surplus to search on Ebay

#1756 1 year ago

This one is a little slower. Hurst makes timing motors in that style.

ebay.com link » Hurst Emerson 30 Rpm Model Ab Sp 2687 24v 60hz 5w 10mfd 2301

#1760 1 year ago

If just closing the scoring switch causes the sounds to stop (no coils energizing), I would suspect a sound board issue. Possibly a bad sound rom (is causing to call a sound routine that doesn't exist). Also possible is sound output drivers from the MPU if other sounds appear to be the wrong sounds.

Tough to troubleshoot without having another game to swap parts with.

1 week later
#1780 1 year ago

I am pretty sure your Hurst style timing motor was 24VAC. The gear motor you bought from china is a DC brush motor. If you want to use it, you will need to mount a bridge rectifier in between the wire leads and the motor lugs.

Also, I don't know the application but if the auger motor is running non-stop during a game, a brush motor (especially those really cheap China ones) will eat through the brushes and fail. Thus, the reason why an AC motor was originally used. Probably not much of an issue for home use but would be a big problem if you are operating the game 12/7.

#1782 1 year ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

Also keep in mind that after rectifying the 25V AC you will need a capacitor to flatten the voltage. This will result in a 35V DC voltage which will smoke your motor. You will need to use a series resistor to bring the voltage down for the motor.
I am in the same boat by the way. The auger motor in my Big House is busted too. I am working on a solution with a stepper motor. Can be a nice Arduino project if you are in to that.
But curious about your results with this motor. Good luck and keep us informed!

No Cap necessary. The motor doesn't really need a filtered power source. The pulsating DC will work just fine. If desired, you could put a 0.1 100V disc cap across the motor lugs to help filter out any brush noise. Or even a 1 to 10ufd 50V electrolytic which won't increase the voltage to any great extent.

#1791 1 year ago

Are you checking the 69 AC across pins 6 AND 7 together (not is respect to ground)?

Your displays would not be working unless you had the 60VDC and 42VDC . Unless, of course, your game has been upgraded with LED displays.

#1795 1 year ago
Quoted from slghokie:

CactusJack, each pin separate using ground pin on black and red on pin 6 or 7

That is not the correct way to check an AC voltage. You need to put your black lead on pin 6 and your red lead on pin 7.

#1798 1 year ago

Just like the original Gottlieb System 1 MPU, the 2005 NiWumpf Manual does not seem to show it supports a Novelty mode in any way (just Replay or Extra Ball).

The Pascal Janin PX-1(4) manual has an extra dipswitch setting #52 which turns an On Playfield Special into a 50,000 novelty award (must not be set to EB via Dipswitch #11). I am assuming you have to turn off all the replay score levels if you don't want them to respond with a credit.

2 weeks later
#1816 1 year ago
Quoted from RWH:

What is that other pin you have there?

Looks like a Fast/Quick draw (a much better game if you ask me)!

#1834 1 year ago

What is your line voltage sitting at? Any increase on that will result in slightly higher readings on the secondary side of the transformer.

When you say: "leads into sets of pins", I hope you don't mean that you stuck your meter leads into the front side of the connectors where the male header pins would go in? That often opens up the knuckle of the female pin to the point where it will have poor contact pressure on the male connector pins.

#1838 1 year ago

No good replacements other than original pulls from junked games.

There was a discussion thread about using the LED replacements (don't require HV) and the replacement MPUs (that don't require the -12v). When your small transformer is Toast.

#1841 1 year ago
Quoted from northvibe:

So I'm testing on a sys1, power at the A2J1 plug (goes into power board) and I need some validation.
DMM set to AC w/ leads into sets of pins.
Pin 1-2 = 24.3v ac
pin 4-5 = 29.4v ac
pin 6-7 = 74.3v ac
pins 1/2 and 4/5 seem correct, 11.5v and 14 respectively but the 69v line ?

Before you run out and buy a bunch of costly LEDs. Can we revisit this? Above, you say you have 74.3VC at pins 6 and 7. On my Joker Poker, while connected, I m reading 71.4VAC across the last two pins (Orange-White-Red and Blue-White-Red). Looking at the wiring diagram, they show a 1/4Amp fuse in line with the Blue-White-Red wire. This is probably located on the lower wood power tray.

Otherwise, while its not cheap, if the only voltage your transformer is missing is the 69VAC, this might be an option too:


1518325236288935606444 (resized).jpg

#1842 1 year ago

Also, before buying that transformer, make sure you have the 3VAC across transformer pins 13 and 15 and 5VAC at 10 and 12, since they are essential for the Fluorescent display tubes too.

#1845 1 year ago

Kind of tough to follow a troubleshooting path when the info is intermixed with other posts and problems. Maybe it's time to start a separate thread where we can focus on your specific problem?

Anyhow, reading back, I think you might be testing the transformer AC wrong. Technically, AC does not always have a common reference to ground like a DC check would. Instead, you must read AC voltage across the windings themselves. So, you would not use ground.

For the most part, the 60/42VDC power is isolated from the other voltages until the regulator connectors are all plugged in. Just as the 5VAC and 3VAC are floating but end up being "grounded" via the center taps of the windings to produce it on an offset DC voltage.

Your earlier check that showed about 74AC proves the transformer is okay. So, What is your original issue???

#1847 1 year ago

Okay, thanks for the refresher.

If you are missing the 60VDC, it's kind of hard to tell if the MPU is doing anything since you can't see the displays. Having all the other DC voltage should allow the MPU to boot but again hard to know how it's reacting when you can't see the displays.

Therefore, you need a scope or logic probe to check for activity on the display strobes or switch matrix to see if the MPU board is FUBR'd.

Sadly, the best thing to have when troubleshooting a SYstem 1 game is another working System 1 game to swap parts. Otherwise, a Pascal Jamin All-in-one board is another great service alternative.

#1852 1 year ago

If you have 73VAC at the bottom connector of regulator board with connector plugged in, your transformer is good.

1 week later
#1877 12 months ago

No matrix. All coils are single drive (single coil, single drive transistor).

However, when they ran out of coil drivers, they used lamp drivers (also single drive) which in turn drive a PNP transistor mounted to the underside of the playfield.

No diode on a pop bumper or flipper coil can cause all sorts of weird issues due to the back EMF which can be transferred through wire looms to other circuits.

No diode on a driven coil usually takes out it's drive transistor in one or two energizing.

#1879 12 months ago

After replacing any shorted or open transistors, you should immediately check across those two coils for voltage (after starting a game). There should be none. Sometimes, pre drive components can partially energized a coil but not enough to make it move. This draws down power and also heats up the driver until it fails due to overheating.

#1883 12 months ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

Where's a good place to get ground for measuring the coil voltage on these games?

I don't want you reference ground. I want you to actually measure across the two coil lugs to see if there is any low voltage DC on the actual coils windings.

#1885 12 months ago

Have you put a fresh 1N4007 across the coil? For $0.09, it's good insurance any time you get a shorted driver.

3 weeks later
#1930 11 months ago

Try hammering a small and a jumbo paper clip end flat and see if either will work. The flat head screw driver's problem is it tapers at the end where it needs to be bigger to cave in that little latch tab.

I make all sorts of extractors using paper clips sometimes needing to grind them narrow or put a tiny bend at the very end

3 weeks later
#2001 10 months ago

When checking the DC output of a bridge, don't use earth ground (you have no way of knowing if earth is ultimately connected to logic or DC ground), connect Red lead to + of bridge and black lead to minus of bridge.

1 week later
#2026 10 months ago
Quoted from PhillyBilly:

Ok... I’ve been posting a ton about my dumb genie... so I have the game working perfectly for about 5-8 games and then the 2amp fuse blows. WTF

Was it a fast blow when it should have been a slow blow?

#2064 10 months ago
Quoted from srcdube:

So... need to figure out what’s keeping the coil locked on.

Have you done the recommended Ground mods to all your boards? What you are experiencing is typical of when the ground potential for the driver board changes in relationship to the source voltage (MPU Board and Regulator board) which can allow the PNP driver on the playfield to get just enough voltage to "hold" a coil but not actually fully energize one. So, with a DT reset, it gets pulled in and then doesn't let go even though the MPU thinks it turned it off.

Your 2.5A fusing is risking not only the life of the DT Reset coil, but also the drivers on the driver board. Chances are, while the coil draws more than 2Amps it doesn't draw the full 2.5 amps so the fuse does not blow. Instead, the coil will heat up, start burning enamel off the windings, start to short windings to windings, reduce the Ohms, increase the current draw, and then start blowing the higher rated fuse. That's if it doesn't melt its nylon sleeve first (unless it has the old Brass ones).

#2069 9 months ago

The common bare braid that goes to all the controlled lamp sockets is not ground but rather positive voltage to the lamps. It is the drive transistors that ground the other end of the lamp sockets to complete the circuit.

#2089 9 months ago

Additionally, if you connect the power supply and you still have approximately 69VAC at the connector, there is nothing wrong with your transformer.

Based on what you told us, either your diodes we're installed incorrectly, or you broke a trace.

#2095 9 months ago

Not 3311 but 33 with an Ohm symbol.

If R13 is glowing, you have a dead short on the 60V regulated line. So, either C8 is shorted or one or more of your displays is shorted (Bad UCN6118 or shorted cap)

Unplug all 5 displays and retest voltages after TIP31. You could also have more shorted transistors now since they don't play well with dead shorts down stream. Re-check each with diode check to make sure you don't have any dead shorts across any E-B-C.

In probing, you may have shorted C to E on Q2 sending full 90V down to ICs on the displays. This could cause them to short internally.

#2099 9 months ago

Are the Insulators in place for the screw heads on the back of the board that mount the two TO220 transistors?

Ever hear of "less is more"? LOL. Too much Heat Sink compound can be as bad as none at all.

#2100 9 months ago

How many ohms do you read across Pins 1 (+60V) and 5 (GND) on A2P3?

#2112 9 months ago
Quoted from japespin:

Thanks northvibe ! Yeah Black Hole, so its Sys80. Any idea why Todd Tuckey is saying only harness ground is needed, and not boards as well?

Because technically, from a design point, only that one ground is required to overcome the issue of the driver board not being grounded properly to the MPU which drives it.

All other grounding is done in the various connectors back to the main power tray. But one school of thought is to insure that every single board shares a strong common ground such as when other pinball brand boards are screwed to the ground plane. It all depends on the conditions of the connectors male and female pins or board contacts.

3 weeks later
#2151 8 months ago

Where and how did you get your 7417's?

Due to the rarity of 7400 series these days, you might have counterfeit parts.

#2156 8 months ago

The minus 12 volt regulator, as well as the TIP32 tab transistors MUST have their tabs isolated from the chassis gound. That's the purpose of the "mica" insulator sheet and the nylon flange washer insulator.

With all connectors unplugged, you should not get a low ohm reading across the tabs to metal frame.

While I normally repair my system 1 power supplies, you may want to consider one of the after market replacements since they aren't too expensive.

The almost 0 ohms across +/- of the 6v bridge has me wondering. Sounds like there is something shorted across the output. Does it blow the fuse for the 6v bridge?

#2160 8 months ago
Quoted from LGFAutos:

Ok got some readings with the chip (SN7417N) at Z6 removed and power on. Also the fuses don't blow which is a good sign
I have -12.14v at pin hole 1, 3, 5, 9, 11 and 13.
I have +5.05v at pin hole 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14
I have earth at pin hole 7
Is this right, as looking at the schematics the feeds are right but the -12v has 6.8K resistors before Z6 chip holes and the +5v has 620 resistors before the pin holes. So shouldn't this affect the voltage readings.

Yes, your voltage readings with the IC removed look good. As there are 6.8k pull down resistors (-12v) on the inputs and 2.7k pull ups (+5v) on the outputs.

I just noticed the Schematic in my Joker poker manual is wrong and shows Z6 as a7416 while the board is populated with 17's.

#2163 8 months ago

SCR 201 is a crow bar circuit (over voltage protection). So it could be loading down LIC1.

One option is to remove it and retest the output of the -12v regulator. Just don't have the CPU board attached in case your minus 12 is way out of range.

However, with your 20.2 volts dropping to 6.4, you probably have a cracked trace to the 7912 (very common problem).

#2169 8 months ago

I am not sure if this is the era but at some point, Gottlieb added a switch to the Tilt Relay and the Coil enable relay to "expand" the number of sounds that the CPU could send out. The Tilt relay more than likely triggers the Tilt speech. While the Coil enable relay switches normal sounds to Attract mode sounds.

So, you may want to clean and gap the switches on those relays.

#2172 8 months ago

Please move ground mods to the top of your to-do list. If you don't, you may end up with new electronic failures you would then have to fix.

Also, your photo shows the original blue filter caps. You can get away with not doing the HV cap ( unless the displays are flickering) but I would do the 5 volt regulator cap since it can cause lock ups and freaky problems.

1 week later
#2176 8 months ago

You need the one currently out of stock A16634. This is the longest one made. It must be longer because of the metal bumper mounting pad Gottlieb uses.

#2181 8 months ago

Not sure that there is even anything wrong with that display. Did you start a game and is it sitting on ball 1?

If so, if the NVRAM (5101) is filled with values higher than BCD 9, you will get odd characters. Keep pressing start to start 4 players and then hit slam (assuming you haven't added the slam switch bypass jumper) which will cause the game to end and display the match number (if enabled). Press start and repeat until you see the numbers decrement down to displayable values. So, what I am saying is that your stored credits are higher than 99 and cannot be displayed properly. Once you get the 10's down to 90, or even the 1's below 9, you should start seeing normal numbers. If you have no battery on the board and you have jumpered Slam and are trying to do it by turning power off, you 5101 will keep reloading with garbage each time you re-power the game.

I am guessing the stand up was made by CPR if they reproduced the Pinball Pool plastic set.

#2183 8 months ago

On a system 1, the credit limit is only monitored when incrementing the credit count (normal operation). If the game is powered up with garbage in the 5101, you can have very high values. The 1's digit can be as high as 15 (1111). So, it can take more than 4 players to get the number down to 9 so it can be displayed (15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, then 9). Once you get the 1's digit between 0 and 9, it should count by 1's normally but you then have to keep subtracting 10 credits from the 10's digit until you get it down to 99 credits.

For whatever reason, my games when they start up seem to be a number higher than 60 and numbers start appearing in the 50's. Once you have a good battery, and good 5101 circuit, yes, credits will top out at 15 max if that's what its set for.

#2187 8 months ago

You don't have to finish the games if your slam is still functional.

Only one 5101. You should confirm 3.6vdc at the ICs power pin when power is off to the machine.

#2189 8 months ago

You can try the 4007. It may or may not work. The issue is, there is about a 0.7 volt drop across it. The original diode is considerably less. Therefore, the input IC may not respond to the switch closure.

1 week later
#2195 7 months ago

That may be a dirty dip switch. If it can play the start up tune (assuming this is a tone only sound board), then it can make all three tones.

#2197 7 months ago

First, try swapping with one of the other banks. That switch might not be needed.

Otherwise, turn it on and off about 100 times. If that doesn't fix it, time for new.

#2204 7 months ago

If using an original System 1 MPU, there is no specific chip. Two of the spider chips have most of the operating system software split between them. Then, the game PROM tells that software what to do with various switch closures.

So, if its not a mater of switch matrix read issues, it could be any of those failing that could effect it.

1 week later
#2215 7 months ago

I would suspect a bad drive transistor. I think pascal used ULN2803A ICs with 8 drivers per package.

#2218 7 months ago

Not knowing if it is Pascal's recommendation, but I would suggest using only #47 lamps for feature lamps (or LEDs).

#47 = 150ma
#44 = 250ma

Which is why Pascal doubled up the drivers of the ULN2803's

#2231 7 months ago

Give us volt readings of all three places on the big TO-3 transistor (in reference to ground). This will help us know where to begin.

Did you have 5v before you worked on it?

#2233 7 months ago

No, if you have 15v to the screws (collector), then they are not grounding out. So, with only the 0.12ish volts to both base and emitter, it is further up the regulator circuit we have to look.

I will need to locate a schematic to guide you further, unless someone else steps in.

#2235 7 months ago

The 5 volt regulator circuit has an over voltage crowbar shutdown circuit consisting of SCR1, CR8 etc. If the 5 output rises above 5.6v, the SCR will short the output to ground. The LM723 regulator has an over current shut down feature. So, if either the voltage goes too high, or if there are shorts out in tge game or boards, the regulator will shut down.

So, it can be hard to troubleshoot the circuit.

With power off, try turning POT1 up and down serveral times to clean it, and then leave it at mid setting. Repower and retest.

1532062601110885764207253793899 (resized).jpg
#2237 7 months ago

Otherwise, the process would be to remove SCR1 and retest to see if the 5v output is too high.

After that, would be to confirm all resistor values. If you get an odd reading, you would have to unsolder 1 lead.

Beyond that, I would suspect the LM723.

#2239 7 months ago

Oh, check what you get at IC1 pin 10. Print says it should be around 7v. If you get more than the 0.12 you get at Q3, you have a bad solder joint to the hollow rivet for that lead.

#2240 7 months ago

Cut lead means someone else already tried to trouble shoot it before.

#2242 7 months ago
Quoted from jdoz2:

Ok, I’m getting 2.68v at pin 10. So that means those through hole rivets at q3 aren’t right?

That would be what I suspect. After sucking up the solder in the holes, flow solder to the trace to adhere to the rivet but not fill the hole. Re-assemble.

1 week later
#2245 6 months ago

Maybe a fuse?

1 week later
#2278 6 months ago
Quoted from TwoHeartedMale:

hey pin heads, I just got a System one Dragon, and I love it. great art work! but just noticed that its not recording high scores. in place of the high score it shows a digit that's almost a 5 or almost a 9. it came this way. it has also been Rigged up to be on free play, it looks like the credit switch has been attached to the start button. so every time you hit the start button, it takes a credit and then gives a credit. not sure if the problem and this hack are related just thought id share what I know. Thanks

Go into Book keeping and clear the high score to date. The odd characters are probably a hexidecimal value greater than 9 so you can never top it.

#2295 6 months ago
Quoted from TwoHeartedMale:

if i change the battery out will this have the same effect?

No, that's how it started. When battery power is lost, the 5101 ram powers up with garbage in it. You need to go through and clear and set free game score values AND the High score to date.

#2303 6 months ago

As it is a Gottlieb, I would think Steve at The Pinball Resource would be your best bet.

#2307 6 months ago

That is the Gottlieb PN too.

Pinball Resource lists them for $4.10USD. There is a + on the end of the PN.


#2325 6 months ago

Corrupt data. Do a high score clear or restore factory defaults.

4 weeks later
#2412 5 months ago

New blades are not available. Only source is to part out old rotos.

Steve at Pinball Resource has them but will no longer ship them out, only uses to repair what is sent in.

Since you are outside the USA, hopefully someone can supply you with a used blade. Drill rivets, repin with new. (Steve has the Rivets too.)

3 weeks later
#2446 4 months ago

There is a 1.8 meg and a 2.7 meg that go to U5, the NE555 timer.

Screenshot_20181011-080635_Chrome (resized).jpg
1 week later
#2490 4 months ago

Better hope for a good MPU because Dragon is probably bottom of the barrel for sys1 games and hard to justify the cost of a Niwumpf let alone a Pascal 4in1. $300-$350 is about right for working. Sadly, more like $150 if bad MPU. Perfect condition backglass can raise that a bit for wall hanging.

#2501 3 months ago

Start a 4 player game and all addition "free" credits will go on the credit counter. Of course, if you max it out, you can never win more games.

3 months later
#2614 23 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

So a few months back I built a SYS 80 Test Fixture using the instructions in This Old Pinball 5. Clay supplied a schematic for the fixture. I was able to screen grab it and build one up. It's been very useful.
Now I'd like to do the same for system 1. The power supplies are so wonky that being able to repair them on the bench would be great.
I came up with this. I added a power switch and the recommended fuses from Pinwiki. Is this overkill? Any sys 1 experts who can validate this design?[quoted image]

Doesn't look like overkill to me. Actually, in my opinion, since the low voltage windings are center tapped, there should also be 2 more fuses at transformer lugs 3 and 4.

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