(Topic ID: 73213)

Home for the Gottlieb SYS1-SYS80B guys, Yep it's a club :)

By Gerry

8 years ago


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#5651 88 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Thanks, unfortunately this pdf only has the right pages of the manual and none of the left pages. It is missing the lamp and coil assignment information. Fortunately the switch matrix can be found in the pinitech library

Actually looks like it's missing all pages 19 through 43. It's weird, and no idea where this site got those in the first place. The Volcano manual from that site is missing everything after page 17. I ended buying an original from eBay.

#5652 88 days ago

I was sent the lamp assignments. Thank you all! For future reference they are in the 87 Parts Catalog

#5653 87 days ago
Quoted from sparky672:

Actually looks like it's missing all pages 19 through 43. It's weird, and no idea where this site got those in the first place. The Volcano manual from that site is missing everything after page 17. I ended buying an original from eBay.

The file I have for The Games is also missing the same pages (schematics).
Furtunately we can use other files for the schematics, though not for the specifics like coils and lamps.

I have a full manual for Volcano.
All schematics included plus some extra's.

Peter

#5654 87 days ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

The file I have for The Games is also missing the same pages (schematics).
Furtunately we can use other files for the schematics, though not for the specifics like coils and lamps.
I have a full manual for Volcano.
All schematics included plus some extra's.
Peter

For the most part I used the Ice Fever manual as it has the same late 80A power chassis in the bottom of the cabinet. I was also able to locate a switch matrix here: https://www.pinitech.com/switch_database.php?name=Gottlieb_The_Games

#5655 87 days ago

When servicing the flippers on these Gottliebs, make sure the dinky little screw holding the bat to the flipper base is tight. I was cleaning the units and replacing a few parts and noticed that on several flippers, the cement they used on the screwhead had cracked thru and shifted slightly, making it not as tight as it should be. I tightened them back up (not overdoing it, just a little bit) and dried a droplet of varnish around the screwheads.

#5656 87 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Put it in switch test and see what registers. Test every switch you can reach You may have sent coil power down the switch matrix.

When I go into test mode, it won't let me advance past lamp test. It seems to freeze at that point. Should I start checking transistors or is this an IC issue?

#5657 87 days ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

When I go into test mode, it won't let me advance past lamp test. It seems to freeze at that point. Should I start checking transistors or is this an IC issue?

I worry that your coil power is still going into the switch matrix and when the first coil activates it's locking the machine

#5658 87 days ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

I screwed something up on my Robo-War. Was under the playfield fixing something (yes with the power on; I know, I know) and now whenever I go to start a game, it a) locks on the ramp up solenoid and b) cycles back and forth between the trough solenoid and the multi-ball eject solenoid. The ball release solenoid in the trough never engages.
No blown fuses

I did something similar once but lucked out and it was only Z14 and Z15 that needed to be changed.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-system-80-i-blew-it

Focus on the switch matrix...

Check Z13 too. Worst case, you may have blown U4 or more.

It's going to take some methodical troubleshooting. Are you able to isolate the exact places under the playfield that shorted out? Knowing this will help narrow your focus.

Quoted from Cheddar:

I worry that your coil power is still going into the switch matrix and when the first coil activates it's locking the machine

Let's hope not. That would be doing some serious damage every time it activates.

#5659 87 days ago
Quoted from sparky672:

I did something similar once but lucked out and it was only Z14 and Z15 that needed to be changed.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-system-80-i-blew-it
Focus on the switch matrix...
Check Z13 too. Worst case, you may have blown U4 or more.
It's going to take some methodical troubleshooting. Are you able to isolate the exact places under the playfield that shorted out? Knowing this will help narrow your focus.

Let's hope not. That would be doing some serious damage every time it activates.

That was it! Sadly, I only have an 74LS04 which won't work in Z13. Guess I'll need to order a SN7400N ($2 part with $7 shipping!). Thanks all.

#5660 87 days ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

That was it! Sadly, I only have an 74LS04 which won't work in Z13. Guess I'll need to order a SN7400N ($2 part with $7 shipping!). Thanks all.

If you have a 74LS00 or 74HCT00, those are acceptable substitutes for Z13 according to PinWiki.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Gottlieb_System_80#List_of_Acceptable_TTL_Chip_Substitutes_on_a_System_80_CPU_Board

#5661 87 days ago

If you are replacing those chips for the switch matrix you may want to try one of my diode clamping boards. You plug the board into Z13 and Z14 then put the 7400 chips in that board. Helps protect those chips. Running them in my own games (Volcano and Genesis) and have installed them in quite a few others. Just send a direct message if interested.

#5662 87 days ago

Thanks to those here who offered advice for my diamond lady drop target coil question. It’s working perfectly, but leads me to a new question. When I plunge the ball, it should start one if three mini modes. Aces, spinners, or one other. But most times when I plung, it does nothing. The odd time it will say aces, but the two targets will not be dropped to expose the standing target. Sometimes spinners are lit. But it seems that no matter what, the drop targets necessary for modes do not drop. The banks reset normally when a new ball is started. So I’m trying to sort out where the problem may lie. I tested switches and it says all are open. I also recently had all the board serviced. I read the manual but didn’t see anything to suggest it’s a dip switch setting. Any ideas?

#5663 86 days ago

On Arena the volume control has two wires on the middle lug, yet on Genesis only one.

Any idea why?

Ignore croc clip, the pot is broken and the clip makes the audio work.

Got a new pot on the way and want to ensure I solder correctly as it's such a faff.
20220905_152720 (resized).jpg
20220905_152735 (resized).jpg

#5664 84 days ago

Is it possible to use lightning or mini flippers on gottliebs? I think goldwings would benefit from mini flippers on the left side.

#5665 83 days ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

On Arena the volume control has two wires on the middle lug, yet on Genesis only one.
Any idea why?

Yes.
I haven't checked on the GENESIS, but I think the wiring is a bit different on the two machines.

Of course, both on the GENESIS and on the ARENA, the two loudspeakers are mounted in parallel (it's not stereo, there's one in the bottom cabinet and one in the backglass). For speaker #1 (backglass), the connection can be made at the terminals of speaker #2 (bottom cabinet), or at the level of the potentiometer.

The schematics are not very explicit, but on the GENESIS we find that:
2022-09-09_08h36_01 (resized).png2022-09-09_08h43_34 (resized).png
It is not said if wire 022 is connected to the midpoint of the potentiometer, or to the pin "+" of speaker #2. But the second image suggests that it is well connected at the level of the HP #2 and not the potentiometer. Which explains why on the GENESIS there is only one wire coming out (and going to HP #2).

Although it works the same, the connection diagram on the ARENA is a little different. This is what we find:
2022-09-09_08h37_35 (resized).png2022-09-09_08h42_02 (resized).png
If you look at the annotation on the second image, it is said "AUDIO FROM SPEAKER #2". Sure it's unclear where it is connected !
But as the schematic has been modified, and the ARENA produced later than the GENESIS, it's probably because they bring a change to the connection. If you look also at the second pin of speaker #1, it is directly connected to the "ground".

This suggests that HP #1 is no longer mounted directly in parallel to the HP #2 terminals, but is connected between ground and the midpoint of the potentiometer. Electrically, it's the same, but it's done differently.

So, I think that on the ARENA, the wire 022 is connected to the middle point of the potentiometer, while on the GENESIS, it is connected to the pin "+" of the speaker #2.

#5666 78 days ago

Ok might have found my problem. How should I put the ground strap together?

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#5667 78 days ago

Live and hate this group at the same time.

Says everyone, who is a Gottlieb owner.

#5668 78 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Is it possible to use lightning or mini flippers on gottliebs? I think goldwings would benefit from mini flippers on the left side.

Yes, but you need the mini-flippers from Excalibur. The sys80b shafts are way bigger than Bally/Williams mini/lightning flippers. Planning to do this for my Gold Wings, at least for the lock flipper.

#5669 78 days ago
Quoted from frisbez:

Yes, but you need the mini-flippers from Excalibur. The sys80b shafts are way bigger than Bally/Williams mini/lightning flippers. Planning to do this for my Gold Wings, at least for the lock flipper.

Great call. Thanks!

#5670 78 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Great call. Thanks!

This one I think, let us know how you get on. Might try this myself.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-11241

#5671 78 days ago
Quoted from Lostcause:

This one I think, let us know how you get on. Might try this myself.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-11241

#5672 78 days ago
Quoted from timtim:

Ok might have found my problem. How should I put the ground strap together?
[quoted image]

While I have some of that strap I could send you, I think it might be easier to just staple it back together. I wonder what amperage a staple can handle?

#5673 78 days ago

Ok I jumped it temporarily. It now boots up, but kicks a ball without pressing start. After ball is kicked out most lights turn off. Still no displays or sound.

I have some other things to do on this. I won’t lie I didn’t do the in cabinet ground mod yet. That will be next as some looked suspect and some were soldered straight to pins which one came off.

Like I said game was playing fine then it stopped while in attract. I guess I was on borrowed time without fully ground modding it.

It also had a f12 popped which is trip all coils? Doesn’t pop now might have just been at the end of its life.

Will report back after more steps.

Can’t wait to have diamond lady back up, I really enjoy the game.

#5674 78 days ago

Timtim - strip off about an inch of the plastic on each side of the break. Use a piece of braided ground strap and solder it, about 3/8" on each side. If you don't have ground strap, use a piece of 16 or 18 gauge wire. It will take a bit of heat - use some flux, pre-tin the areas, then solder the wire/braid. Should be good as new.

#5675 78 days ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Timtim - strip off about an inch of the plastic on each side of the break. Use a piece of braided ground strap and solder it, about 3/8" on each side. If you don't have ground strap, use a piece of 16 or 18 gauge wire. It will take a bit of heat - use some flux, pre-tin the areas, then solder the wire/braid. Should be good as new.

Thanks I’ll probably go wire worst case scenario. It’s of course in the most inconvenient spot without taking the playfield out entirely.

#5676 78 days ago

Hello All:
I have been beating my head over this issue with a Rack em up.

It will boot up fine, and will start a game, but soon afterwards it will not kick up a ball to play.
All switches , coils and flippers will not work. If I power off and on again the machine will turn on and if I push start the banks will reset and the start tunes and lights will work correctly.
Just wont launch a ball and no switches or coils respond.

Add more weirdness to this, if I boot the game and go into diagnostic tests, I can run each test successfully.
All lights work, all switches show when closed, all coils will fire and the ram test checks out.

I am not sure where to look next.

Please let me know if you have an idea that I can try.

Mike

#5677 78 days ago
Quoted from packie1:

Hello All:
I have been beating my head over this issue with a Rack em up.
It will boot up fine, and will start a game, but soon afterwards it will not kick up a ball to play.
All switches , coils and flippers will not work. If I power off and on again the machine will turn on and if I push start the banks will reset and the start tunes and lights will work correctly.
Just wont launch a ball and no switches or coils respond.
Add more weirdness to this, if I boot the game and go into diagnostic tests, I can run each test successfully.
All lights work, all switches show when closed, all coils will fire and the ram test checks out.
I am not sure where to look next.
Please let me know if you have an idea that I can try.
Mike

Is the game over relay activating under the playfield? Ignoring switches for now when you start a game is there power present at the coils?

#5678 77 days ago

A lot of games won’t function until that ball kicks out. I’d check the trough switches and ball kick out. Makes sure the ball is sitting right.

#5679 75 days ago

Having a bit of trouble getting my Haunted House's sound to work after pulling it out of storage. Good news is, other than that, the game plays perfectly after sitting in my basement for a bit. Stoked about that.

When I put it all back together, the audio was working, but was really ugly and distorted, but present. After letting it sit off for a day or two, I got no sound at all. I noticed the -12v was bad and was only doing -7v. Pulled another S/S power supply. I had lying around and now it's booting and sounding nice, HOWEVER I have no sound impulses at all any more. When the board is just sitting, it plays the attract mode sounds loud and clear, but I can't get any of the impulses form the game to do anything!

NiWumpf Driver, Swemmer CPU, rebuild PSU, stock sound board (sound board and driver board tested against working backups I have)

A few things:
All the voltages on the sound board are correct.
I've swapped sound boards and driver boards with known working ones. No change.
Replaced Z31, Z15 on the CPU. No change.

Thoughts on where to look here?

#5680 75 days ago
Quoted from radial_head:

it plays the attract mode sounds loud and clear

I believe that is because the attract mode is controlled solely by the Sound/Speech board itself. Evidenced by the DIP switches on the S/S board that control the attract mode options.

The manual also has a page that explains how to properly do the self-test on the Sound & Speech board, but I suspect it will pass.

Quoted from radial_head:

Thoughts on where to look here?

Let's assume your sound board is ok since you have the proper voltages and attract mode is working.

The sounds are called by the MPU (outputs at Z31, which you already changed) and triggered by the Driver board (outputs at Z13). I would start by logic probing the output pins on those two chips to see if you're getting any of the triggers. Cleaning and inspecting the relevant edge connections between the MPU and Driver, and the Driver to Sound/Speech board couldn't hurt either.

#5681 75 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Is the game over relay activating under the playfield? Ignoring switches for now when you start a game is there power present at the coils?

I will have to check. I am surprised that all the switches and coils will respond during tests.
Mike

#5682 74 days ago
Quoted from sparky672:

The manual also has a page that explains how to properly do the self-test on the Sound & Speech board, but I suspect it will pass.

Quoted from sparky672:

and triggered by the Driver board (outputs at Z13).

You know, truthfully, I've never totally understood the self test on the S/S boards. "Output 2 tones, Output 3 tones, ect." what does any of that mean. When I press the self test button, it just beeps endlessly. When I go into test mode.

Well, I think I got one step closer to figuring it out. Repinning connectors did nothing, but swapping out the sound board again did. Who knows.

Well, I will get to the bottom of it. Going to try and repair the sound board, but does anybody have a S/S board they'd be willing to sell? SC-01 not necessary.

#5683 74 days ago
Quoted from radial_head:

You know, truthfully, I've never totally understood the self test on the S/S boards. "Output 2 tones, Output 3 tones, ect." what does any of that mean. When I press the self test button, it just beeps endlessly. When I go into test mode.

"Output 2 tones" - I imagine that means it beeps twice at that particular step.

You'll have to be more specific. On my Volcano, the S&S test is fairly straightforward to perform, but it looks like each game has a slightly different S&S test flow chart procedure. It looks like every game must be in "Game Over" mode to initiate the test.

#5684 74 days ago

Hey need some help/info.
Went to work on someone's Spring break.
Before opening the game the coil that lets the ball into the shooter lane was locking on. shooter lane coil was firing over and over.
reseated plugs at the driver board, A9 plug for the trough coils to the 4 under pf transistors. Then the coil stopped locking on. I played a few games then the shooter lane ball launch coil stopped working...but also the upper flipper. did a quick google and it seems if the upper flipper doesn't flip the ball lane shooter coil will not fire. if I manually move the upper flipper the game fires the ball and starts, but the upper flipper still does not work. I continuity tested the switches and the flipper switch that opens when the flipper opens was closed even when open. the 2nd switch which seems to fire the ball was working.

I left the manual/schematics at the location but is there any trick to the upper flipper? I remember seeing the Q relay in the schematics.

#5685 74 days ago
Quoted from northvibe:

Hey need some help/info.
Went to work on someone's Spring break.
Before opening the game the coil that lets the ball into the shooter lane was locking on. shooter lane coil was firing over and over.
reseated plugs at the driver board, A9 plug for the trough coils to the 4 under pf transistors. Then the coil stopped locking on. I played a few games then the shooter lane ball launch coil stopped working...but also the upper flipper. did a quick google and it seems if the upper flipper doesn't flip the ball lane shooter coil will not fire. if I manually move the upper flipper the game fires the ball and starts, but the upper flipper still does not work. I continuity tested the switches and the flipper switch that opens when the flipper opens was closed even when open. the 2nd switch which seems to fire the ball was working.
I left the manual/schematics at the location but is there any trick to the upper flipper? I remember seeing the Q relay in the schematics.

When my Volcano was doing that, it ended up being a combination of bad edge connectors and MPU flakiness from battery damage.

#5686 74 days ago
Quoted from sparky672:

"Output 2 tones" - I imagine that means it beeps twice at that particular step.
You'll have to be more specific. On my Volcano, the S&S test is fairly straightforward to perform, but it looks like each game has a slightly different S&S test flow chart procedure. It looks like every game must be in "Game Over" mode to initiate the test.

I believe your Volcano has a Rev 2 board and HH has a Rev 3, but I think in theory they should operate this same.

My board has some hacks to it and quite a few lifted traces from a failed cap job (that I think I did when I was new to all of this lol), so maybe I should check the 5V post cap... If the attract sounds are working though, that should mean that the 5V is stead though... correct?
So I'm going to buzz everything out and see if I can't figure out something that way. I guess the 6532 chip could have very easily failed in some sort of way since I know those go bad pretty easily. so that the sound inputs aren't registering past the 74LS04 on the sound input side of things.

Is there some sort of guide on how to use a logic probe to test out chips in circuits like this?

Thanks in advance.

#5687 74 days ago
Quoted from sparky672:

When my Volcano was doing that, it ended up being a combination of bad edge connectors and MPU flakiness from battery damage.

I didn’t see acid damage but I know how old boards are :/ I didn’t bring home the manual if I could find it online I’ll figure out the pin and edge connector and can repin or verify that, for the upper flipper wiring. The upper flipper must be cpu controlled?

#5688 74 days ago
Quoted from radial_head:

I believe your Volcano has a Rev 2 board and HH has a Rev 3....

I have a Rev 3 board in mine. Somebody put one in from Caveman, which was manufactured as a Rev 3. However, Rev 1, 2, or 3 are all basically the same S&S board but with minor changes. Sometimes it's an older rev with the modifications made at Gottlieb. Sometimes it's actually made from the ground up as that revision.

Quoted from radial_head:

If the attract sounds are working though, that should mean that the 5V is stead though... correct?

I would not make that assumption.

Quoted from radial_head:

Is there some sort of guide on how to use a logic probe to test out chips in circuits like this?

Yes.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/General#Logic_Probes

#5689 74 days ago
Quoted from northvibe:

...The upper flipper must be cpu controlled?

I am not familiar with that game or how/why the upper flipper would be different. Flippers are usually just directly controlled by the flipper buttons and have nothing to do with the MPU.

Quoted from northvibe:

... but is there any trick to the upper flipper? I remember seeing the Q relay in the schematics.

I'll defer to a Spring Break expert, but flippers typically only work during game play (Q relay pulled in), and they have nothing to do with the MPU.

Quoted from northvibe:

... if I manually move the upper flipper the game fires the ball and starts, but the upper flipper still does not work.

There are switches on flippers which open/close as the flipper moves, and there is a solenoid that actuates flipper movement. You can have a dead solenoid (no flipper movement), but the switches will still work perfectly fine when you manually move the flipper.

#5690 74 days ago
Quoted from sparky672:

I am not familiar with that game or how/why the upper flipper would be different. Flippers are usually just directly controlled by the flipper buttons and have nothing to do with the MPU.

I'll defer to a Spring Break expert, but flippers typically only work during game play (Q relay pulled in), and they have nothing to do with the MPU.

There are switches on flippers which open/close as the flipper moves, and there is a solenoid that actuates flipper movement. You can have a dead solenoid (no flipper movement), but the switches will still work perfectly fine when you manually move the flipper.

I'm not familiar with this sys80b and flipper button eject. Only my gottlieb playball. I find this a interesting setup. (the upper flipper worked for 3-4 games)

The flipper button is 1 switch. The lower right flipper has 1 switch. The upper flipper has 2 switches.
With the game powered on, press start, the ball is ejected into the shooter lane. The ball will not eject unless the upper flipper flips (verified by manually lifting the upper flipper to full flip). The lower 3 flippers work, the upper does not. The only flipper switch in the switch matrix is the upper flipper. Otherwise the lower flippers are on their own w/ transistors under the pf.

The upper flipper w/ two switches, one being closed and opened once flipped (eos?) and one being open then closed when flipped, ejects the ball.

I did not have time on site to trace the wires from the upper flipper switch back, but the 1 switch (main upper flipper switch), was continuity tested as always closed even when open. However if that was the case, it still should of flipped imo.

So my question is, since the lower flippers are off in their own setup, how does the game know to flip the upper flipper? I suspect it is cpu controlled? Old games used a 2nd switch on the lower flipper button or flipper assembly to "enable" the upper flipper, this is different.

#5692 67 days ago

Hey guys - I’m looking for some pictures or ideally a scan of the plastic that sits around the pop bumper on Hollywood Heat

I’ve posted a few times in the the HH Club forum searching for help, but no replies. Just thought I’d see if anyone here has the game or maybe an old plastic sitting around they could scan for me. If so, shoot me a message!

Thanks!

#5693 65 days ago
Quoted from northvibe:

I'm not familiar with this sys80b and flipper button eject. Only my gottlieb playball. I find this a interesting setup. (the upper flipper worked for 3-4 games)
The flipper button is 1 switch. The lower right flipper has 1 switch. The upper flipper has 2 switches.
With the game powered on, press start, the ball is ejected into the shooter lane. The ball will not eject unless the upper flipper flips (verified by manually lifting the upper flipper to full flip). The lower 3 flippers work, the upper does not. The only flipper switch in the switch matrix is the upper flipper. Otherwise the lower flippers are on their own w/ transistors under the pf.
The upper flipper w/ two switches, one being closed and opened once flipped (eos?) and one being open then closed when flipped, ejects the ball.
I did not have time on site to trace the wires from the upper flipper switch back, but the 1 switch (main upper flipper switch), was continuity tested as always closed even when open. However if that was the case, it still should of flipped imo.
So my question is, since the lower flippers are off in their own setup, how does the game know to flip the upper flipper? I suspect it is cpu controlled? Old games used a 2nd switch on the lower flipper button or flipper assembly to "enable" the upper flipper, this is different.

Haven't had much for this, but check all the ground mods.
So when I go back to the clients house. I'll do the ground mods, per board and main bar at the transformer for the game. Then verify the upper flipper. It if still does not fire, I'll start checking wiring and if I can check the plug it goes to/transistor.

New PBB in hand too, so that should fix the bad pop (verified by swapping pbb's)

#5694 60 days ago

Looking for advice/help with an arena I just picked up. It’s missing the lighted cross ramp section as well as the brackets. Currently has a long single piece of plastic similar to what IC chips are stored/shipped in. It kinda works but is also cracked and loose and the ball falls off most times. Wondering if anyone had any ideas for a better fix or (although I know it’s a long shot in the dark) original parts?

image (resized).jpg
#5695 56 days ago

Maybe the folks at Rampomatic could help you?

It’s Gottlieb p/n 25391, if that helps.

I’d probably just buy some clear acrylic tubing or rod and be done with it.

With acrylic, you can shine a light from one end and not even bother with the light string.

#5696 56 days ago

I found a supplier for clear plastic rigid tubing: https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=22752

#5697 56 days ago

Thanks man yeah I asked Jodi and he steered me in the right direction at least. Found the brackets from a supplier in Germany. Thanks for the link to the tubing!

#5698 52 days ago

Just happened to be skimming the Cleopatra parts marcospec and they have the pop bumper switch assembly with correct scoring switch for my cleopatra. A while back I showed how all three off my pop bumper scoring switches had been cut off.

In case anyones interested.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/B-18089

#5699 52 days ago
Quoted from Geekdude:

Just happened to be skimming the Cleopatra parts marcospec and they have the pop bumper switch assembly with correct scoring switch for my cleopatra. A while back I showed how all three off my pop bumper scoring switches had been cut off.
In case anyones interested.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/B-18089

Why spent $14 for that switch when PBR sells the same thing for $8.00...??? And PBR probably makes that switch for Marco anyway. Just like a PBR coil could be (estimate) $10, Marco $19
I believe that PBR makes a lot of parts for Marco and Marco has to inflate the price so they can make their profit over what they pay PBR to produce their parts.
I live less than two hours from Marco and will only buy from them "IF" Steve is out of stock and I need the part asap which is rare.

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#5700 52 days ago

I guess it comes down to convenience . I’ve tried to email PBR about these switches quite a while ago with no response. Their website ordering is non-existent. And I don’t have the time to make phone calls during the week and I don’t deal in cash/checks. So for me buying them through Marco’s is super easy. That being said I always shop Marco’s prices at places like Pinball Life as many times the other places prices are a fraction of the price at Marco’s.

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