(Topic ID: 254399)

Hollywood Heat - Stopped booting after NVRAM


By MaxAsh

8 months ago



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  • 107 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by pincity
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 107 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 8 months ago
Quoted from acebathound:

With the NVRAM out of the board, take some close-up pictures of the front and back of the 5101 socket. There might be something someone catches in those pictures that could help you out. Otherwise, if I was you I'd use a meter on continuity test and beep things out at the 5101 socket -- without any RAM in there. Use the schematic to verify connections and check adjacent pins for address/data lines that SHOULD NOT have a connection.

Thanks @acebathound , I appreciate that write-up. Sadly, pressing the daughter board doesn't help at all, so I guess there's a solid that's that's not it.

I've pulled the board several times since I installed the socket, and tested everything. It seems good, but maybe it's worth a third go around. I'm pretty sure I've checked every possible mistake/issue, and "beeped" out everything with my meter, but it won't hurt to do it again. Perhaps some pics wouldn't hurt, since it will give everyone a chance to see if I'm visually missing anything. I even searched the board for solder splashes and such, no luck.

#52 8 months ago

Is there any chance you somehow fried the ROMs maxash?

#53 8 months ago
Quoted from Tomahawkjim:

Is there any chance you somehow fried the ROMs maxash?

Not sure how I would have, so hopefully not. All I did was remove the RAM / battery, and install the socket.

#54 8 months ago

I verified on my Gold Wings tonight it will boot with no ram installed.

#55 8 months ago

No luck so far. Debating pulling the RAM socket and trying again, but I'm a little worried about the fragility of these pads/traces with multiple attempts going at them.

1 week later
#56 8 months ago

Cleaned all the edges and connectors again, made sure everything was making good contact, no change. Frustrating

#57 8 months ago

If it stopped booting after NVRAM install figures that most likely the problem is there. Check continuity from 5101 to the 6502 and to the piggyback's chip socket. A trace or plated hole might have been ripped out when the IC socket got installed breaking continuity of an address or data back to the CPU. A connection may go to the 5101 before going out to the ROMs so even if the 5101 is fully connected if the trace is ripped as it leaves the 5101 everything past there would be open circuit and if the ROM is missing an address or data it probably will not boot up.

With no ROMs installed the CPU should run through all the address looking for program and in this state you can poke around with a logic probe to see if any address or data is dead at say a ROM chip that is pulsing at the CPU chip. Then that indicates there is an open circuit.
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#58 8 months ago

barakandl thank you for that info, I'm game to run through what you said, but I'll be honest, I got a little lost in there. It sounds like you were suggesting two things:

1) Check continuity between the 5101 and the 6502 / Piggyback chip. I was trying to figure out where from the schematic section, but I'll be honest, it's a little confusing.

For example, I see A0 - A7 on the 5101 as pins 4, 3, 2, 1, 21, 5, 6, 7. They seem to be labeled as a group "A", which goes over to AB0-AB10, BAB11? Which then heads over to the 6502 A0 - A11, pins 9-20? I'm a little confused there, my apologies. I'm pretty good with schematics usually, but chip-to-chip stuff and the logic involved isn't as in my wheelhouse sometimes. I'm sure I'm just missing something simple.

2) Remove ROMs (not sure which), turn the game on, and poke around with a logic probe? I'm a little unsure of what to do there. I have a probe, but I've only used it a handful of times on arcade games in the past. Happy to perform whatever testing you suggest, just a little more explanation/guidance would be awesome, if you have time.

#59 8 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

If it stopped booting after NVRAM install figures that most likely the problem is there. Check continuity from 5101 to the 6502 and to the piggyback's chip socket.

While I agree in principle (look in the area where you last worked), System 80B will boot up and run without a 5101 even being installed.

#60 8 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

While I agree in principle (look in the area where you last worked), System 80B will boot up and run without a 5101 even being installed.

A trace run may go in order 6502 to 5101 to EPROM. If the trace is ripped out at the 5101 it also disconnects everything downstream from it and if a ROM has an open data/address it will lock the CPU.

Quoted from MaxAsh:

barakandl thank you for that info, I'm game to run through what you said, but I'll be honest, I got a little lost in there. It sounds like you were suggesting two things:
1) Check continuity between the 5101 and the 6502 / Piggyback chip. I was trying to figure out where from the schematic section, but I'll be honest, it's a little confusing.
For example, I see A0 - A7 on the 5101 as pins 4, 3, 2, 1, 21, 5, 6, 7. They seem to be labeled as a group "A", which goes over to AB0-AB10, BAB11? Which then heads over to the 6502 A0 - A11, pins 9-20? I'm a little confused there, my apologies. I'm pretty good with schematics usually, but chip-to-chip stuff and the logic involved isn't as in my wheelhouse sometimes. I'm sure I'm just missing something simple.
2) Remove ROMs (not sure which), turn the game on, and poke around with a logic probe? I'm a little unsure of what to do there. I have a probe, but I've only used it a handful of times on arcade games in the past. Happy to perform whatever testing you suggest, just a little more explanation/guidance would be awesome, if you have time.

I am saying check continuity from the CPU chip to the most likely problems which is 5101 since you just reworked there and the usually problematic piggyback. I think the B thrown in stands for "bus". Its a bit confusing they used multiple designations for things that are electrically connected but AB0 = A0 and etc.

D0 = 6502 P33 = 5101 P9&P10 = PIGGYBACK's 2764 socket P11
A0 = 6502 P9 = 5191 P4 = PIGGYBACK's 2764 socket P10

The BAB10 through BAB13 for upper address piggypack socket is shown on the PROM selection section and connect back to Z10 or Z12.

#61 8 months ago

Out of curiosity, can you check pin 40 of the 6502 is switching from low to high with the logic probe? Maybe something in the reset section got bumped.

#62 8 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I am saying check continuity from the CPU chip to the most likely problems which is 5101 since you just reworked there and the usually problematic piggyback. I think the B thrown in stands for "bus". Its a bit confusing they used multiple designations for things that are electrically connected but AB0 = A0 and etc.
D0 = 6502 P33 = 5101 P9&P10 = PIGGYBACK's 2764 socket P11
A0 = 6502 P9 = 5191 P4 = PIGGYBACK's 2764 socket P10
The BAB10 through BAB13 for upper address piggypack socket is shown on the PROM selection section and connect back to Z10 or Z12.

Okay, makes more sense. I'll do some continuity testing today and report back.

Side question: I'm pretty careful about ESD and such, but is it possible I might have zapped it and messed something up? Never had an issue with that, but figured I'd ask as an aside.

#63 8 months ago

I definitely would remove the IC socket that was installed and take a picture of the traces under it and zoom up on pads to be sure they are connected to the traces.

#64 8 months ago

Okay, just verified continuity as follows is all good. I tested from the top of the socket I installed at Z5. Here's where I tested to and from successfully for continuity:

Z5

Pin 1 = 6502 Pin 12
Pin 2 = 6502 Pin 11
Pin 3 = 6502 Pin 10
Pin 4 = 6502 Pin 9
Pin 5 = 6502 Pin 14
Pin 6 = 6502 Pin 15
Pin 7 = 6502 Pin 16
Pin 8 = GND
Pin 9 = 6502 Pin 33
Pin 10 = 6502 Pin 33
Pin 11 = 6502 Pin 32
Pin 12 = 6502 Pin 32
Pin 13 = 6502 Pin 31
Pin 14 = 6502 Pin 31
Pin 15 = 6502 Pin 30
Pin 16 = 6502 Pin 30
Pin 17 = Z4 Pin 10
Pin 18 = Z36 Pin 8
Pin 19 = Z36 Pin 2
Pin 20 = Z36 Pin 9
Pin 21 = 6502 Pin 13
Pin 22 = C11

So it seems I'm getting the connections I should to the next components in line, which leads me to think that my socket is installed correctly.

Thoughts?

#65 8 months ago

This is why I use the Frank Lindenmuth battery boards instead of NVRAM.

#66 8 months ago
Quoted from SarverSystems:

This is why I use the Frank Lindenmuth battery boards instead of NVRAM.

Never had any issues with NVRAM, always been great. I'm thinking it's something else, given the fact that the socket connections are testing good. Hopefully someone has another suggestion on what to try next.

#67 8 months ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Never had any issues with NVRAM, always been great. I'm thinking it's something else, given the fact that the socket connections are testing good. Hopefully someone has another suggestion on what to try next.

I'm not blaming the NVRAM. Its just a lot of risk involved to swap it out.

I consider myself a very good soldererererer, and I'd even rather convert to the updated battery board just to eliminate any chance of effing up the board.

#68 8 months ago

Also, check continuity from pin 1 to pin2, pin2 to pin 3, etc... just in case you got a solder bridge across 2 adjacent pins.

#69 8 months ago
Quoted from SarverSystems:

Also, check continuity from pin 1 to pin2, pin2 to pin 3, etc... just in case you got a solder bridge across 2 adjacent pins.

Yep, that was one of the earlier suggestions, that's been checked as well. There are several that are supposed to be connected, and they test as such. I even went through every combination just to be sure, and nothing is bridged that shouldn't be.

#70 8 months ago

Must be a bad NVRAM then?

Can you put it in another machine? Or have an original chip to put back into this one?

#71 8 months ago

Also, I saw it mentioned a few times. The reset board DOES NOT have to be connected for the machine to boot. It is well known that the reset board can in fact PREVENT the machine from booting.

I've got 3 80Bs in the pipeline, and not a single one has the reset board installed. Raven is now booting 100% because of a piggy deux. I expect the other 2 to be the same issue.

#72 8 months ago

It's a longer thread... it was mentioned earlier that you can actually boot the game without RAM (another member tried and proved that was true). So even if the NVRAM was bad, taking it out would have let it boot, and that didn't work sadly. I also put the original back in, no change.

I don't have the reset board, never did, so that's not it either sadly.

#73 8 months ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

It's a longer thread... it was mentioned earlier that you can actually boot the game without RAM (another member tried and proved that was true). So even if the NVRAM was bad, taking it out would have let it boot, and that didn't work sadly. I also put the original back in, no change.
I don't have the reset board, never did, so that's not it either sadly.

Have you checked pin 40 of the 6502 and seeing if it is low/high?

You might be dealing with problem unrelated to ram swap.

#74 8 months ago

Any loose wires in the connectors? You did remove the board afterall...maybe something pulled loose in one of the connectors?

#75 8 months ago

I'll throw another thing to try onto the pile I suppose. I worked my first 80B game earlier this year (a Spring Break) and the game would not boot unless I removed the reset board connector from the MPU. With the reset board plugged in it wouldn't boot and unplugging from reset board side didn't work either. I had to completely remove the connector from the game.

I tried replacing the diode on the connector as I thought that was what was wrong but that didn't fix it. I never did try replacing the capacitors on the reset board. Pretty sure the resistor read the proper reading but it's been awhile at this point.

#76 8 months ago

A picture shows the reset board is not installed, so its not an issue with that. In the same picture I do see an EPROM without a cover on it. The fluorescent lamp used in the head may be able to erase bits over a long period of time. I have noticed in some EPROMs you can crash the CPU just by shining a bright light into an uncovered erase window. After exhausting continuity and short problems it may be time to verify the ROM content and if good try test a ROM.

#77 8 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

A picture shows the reset board is not installed, so its not an issue with that. In the same picture I do see an EPROM without a cover on it. The fluorescent lamp used in the head may be able to erase bits over a long period of time. I have noticed in some EPROMs you can crash the CPU just by shining a bright light into an uncovered erase window. After exhausting continuity and short problems it may be time to verify the ROM content and if good try test a ROM.

Yes but the picture also shows the connector still connected to the MPU. The spring break I worked on would not boot in that situation. I had to completely remove the connector/wiring

#78 8 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

A picture shows the reset board is not installed, so its not an issue with that. In the same picture I do see an EPROM without a cover on it. The fluorescent lamp used in the head may be able to erase bits over a long period of time. I have noticed in some EPROMs you can crash the CPU just by shining a bright light into an uncovered erase window. After exhausting continuity and short problems it may be time to verify the ROM content and if good try test a ROM.

Interesting, I saw the uncovered EPROM and wondered about the safety of that. I've seen plenty of games where the old cover was gone on these, but not one with a fluorescent light. I wasn't aware that might be an issue with those. I don't have a way to verify the ROMs or make a test ROM myself, but could probably get some help with that. With the ROM files not being readily available, what's the best method for that?

#79 8 months ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

Yes but the picture also shows the connector still connected to the MPU. The spring break I worked on would not boot in that situation. I had to completely remove the connector/wiring

I removed the socketed reset piece, just to see if there was a change, no luck. Thanks for the suggestion though.

#80 8 months ago

This Gottlieb generation is notorious for having grounding issues, that often lead to inexplicable failures. Iirc the boards get their ground from the screws to the metal back. All machine parts run wires to the bottom of the cabinet where they are just pressed onto a big metal piece. Not soldered or crimped, just pressed. That point as well as the board GND connections often caused us problems due to vibration, corrosion and whatnot.
It's just a shot but maybe checking, cleaning and/or wiggling all these connections might help..

#81 8 months ago
Quoted from cynric:

This Gottlieb generation is notorious for having grounding issues, that often lead to inexplicable failures. Iirc the boards get their ground from the screws to the metal back. All machine parts run wires to the bottom of the cabinet where they are just pressed onto a big metal piece. Not soldered or crimped, just pressed. That point as well as the board GND connections often caused us problems due to vibration, corrosion and whatnot.
It's just a shot but maybe checking, cleaning and/or wiggling all these connections might help..

That's actually a good point and I can't believe nobody else has commented on that yet (myself included). I don't see any ground mods done. It may not solve your problems but I'd suggest starting there to rule it out and increase the reliability.

#82 8 months ago

www.pinwiki.com for ground mod info.

I also suggest adding a small DVM meter to the aux power supply to indicate the exact voltage output. Adjust it to 5V - 5.1V.

#83 8 months ago

Yup do the ground mods first. Removing the board means the connectors are seated differently now, could have created a little ground resistance.

#84 8 months ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Yup do the ground mods first. Removing the board means the connectors are seated differently now, could have created a little ground resistance.

I know all the cabinet mods, but haven't done the board ones before. I'll happily do them, but perhaps some temporary jumpering for testing wouldn't hurt too, just to see if it's related. Or I guess I could test continuity to ground for various places, that wouldn't hurt either.

Would a ground issue cause it to not boot like this? Attract mode lights, but nothing else? My ground issues before were always different, so I'm curious.

#85 8 months ago

The ground mods are pretty easy. I did them & hey, it's me!

#86 8 months ago

Try this:

While the machine is on (not booted, but with GI on) push a little on the little daughter card on the MPU. If you see the displays flicker, you've got an issue there. PiggyDeux to the rescue for that.

Also, with the machine off, press on the daughterboard while someone turns the machine on...see if it'll boot.

#87 8 months ago
Quoted from SarverSystems:

www.pinwiki.com for ground mod info.
I also suggest adding a small DVM meter to the aux power supply to indicate the exact voltage output. Adjust it to 5V - 5.1V.

Sitting solidly at 5.03V , I tweaked it slightly to 5.09V just for the heck of it, not change in boot.

#88 8 months ago
Quoted from SarverSystems:

Try this:
While the machine is on (not booted, but with GI on) push a little on the little daughter card on the MPU. If you see the displays flicker, you've got an issue there. PiggyDeux to the rescue for that.
Also, with the machine off, press on the daughterboard while someone turns the machine on...see if it'll boot.

If you mean the reset board, I don't have one. I never did, this game didn't have one when I got it (and it booted and played just fine).

If you mean the daughter board on the actual CPU board, I can't remove that (it's soldered on). I've tried all the "press on the daughter board" stuff and haven't have any change, sadly. I thought maybe, since the board was lightly resting facedown briefly during the socket install, maybe I screwed it up that way, but it seems unlikely, I was pretty careful.

I've was pondering using someone like Coin Op Cauldron (since cost is low even though lead times are a while). I also thought about buying the $50 PiggyDeux. Given that messing with the daughter board seems to do nothing, I'm not sure if that would be a waste of money. I hate when I can't figure out the issue, makes the decision making portion much harder ha.

#89 8 months ago

Checked a bunch of board-related grounds, seem to have ground continuity, but I'll start working on that stuff just in case. I'm still wondering if repinning all the connectors is worthwhile? Seems like a crazy chore, but that's the only other major thing that was messed with.

#90 8 months ago

Yeah, I'm referring to the daughter board on the MPU, not the reset board.

I would be willing to bet your problem is on that board. It IS soldered on, but it is notorious for cold solder joints that are impossible to repair.

Google Piggy Deux for a fast inexpensive reliable solution.

#91 8 months ago
Quoted from SarverSystems:

www.pinwiki.com for ground mod info.
I also suggest adding a small DVM meter to the aux power supply to indicate the exact voltage output. Adjust it to 5V - 5.1V.

1) clip right onto the cap on the MPU to check voltage. I aim for 5.05-5.07v, much higher will kick in the crowbar circuit if I remember right.

2) Have you checked pin 40 of the 6502 and seeing if it is low/high with your logic probe?

#93 7 months ago

Thanks, yep I mentioned that as an option earlier, and was debating it. I was hoping to narrow the problem down to that before spending $50. One of those situations where board repair would run me about twice that with a guarantee, so tossing $50 at a maybe seemed iffy without trying to figure out more first. Sadly not much luck with that so far, despite some great help and suggestions from everyone.

#94 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

1) clip right onto the cap on the MPU to check voltage. I aim for 5.05-5.07v, much higher will kick in the crowbar circuit if I remember right.
2) Have you checked pin 40 of the 6502 and seeing if it is low/high with your logic probe?

1) Yep that's where I test it, and it's within that spec

2) No, wasn't sure what exactly you wanted me to do there. Did you just want me to hook the probe to 5V, TTL, and test that pin and see what happens when I turn the game on?

#95 7 months ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

2) No, wasn't sure what exactly you wanted me to do there. Did you just want me to hook the probe to 5V, TTL, and test that pin and see what happens when I turn the game on?

Yes you are checking for a high or low signal.

On start up it should be low and then after a second switch to high. If it does not switch to high there could be a problem with the reset section of the board. So if stuck low, look at the reset circuit.

#96 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Yes you are checking for a high or low signal.
On start up it should be low and then after a second switch to high. If it does not switch to high there could be a problem with the reset section of the board. So if stuck low, look at the reset circuit.

It's always high, assuming I did it right.

I had it set on Pulse, TTL, hooked to 5V. Probe on Pin 40 of the 6502, turned the game on, immediately was High ("1" on my probe) and never changed. There *might* be a very slight flicker on the low just before it shows high, but we're talking less than 1/10th of a second, if that. I'm guessing the "low" I should be seeing is not that brief.

Let me know if I did that wrong.

#97 7 months ago

Sorry if it’s already been suggested but to eliminate “environmental” factors (bad grounds, power, etc) that others have mentioned, are you able to put this board in another 80B machine and confirm that it also doesn’t work in another machine? At least that should support the theory that its a board issue.

Or do you have access to a known good board that you could put into this machine to confirm that it boots?

Edit- I reread your original post and it sounds like the board is somewhat booting. Is PROM2 all the way in? It looks like it’s somewhat out of the socket in your post but it could just be the angle. I WOULD get a small sticker or something on the PROM window to protect it from being corrupted by UV light however.

Also, your reading for the reset line sounds consistent with what I’ve seen in the past. I think that reset signal will usually only last about 50ms (1/20 sec) LOW (0) then will go HIGH (1) and remain there

#98 7 months ago

Deleted

#99 7 months ago
Quoted from pincity:

Also, your reading for the reset line sounds consistent with what I’ve seen in the past. I think that reset signal will usually only last about 50ms (1/20 sec) LOW (0) then will go HIGH (1) and remain there

Thanks for answering, I was being generous when I stated "under a second" The signal going high is the important piece of data.

Reset section of the board should be eliminated as an issue.

#100 7 months ago
Quoted from pincity:

Sorry if it’s already been suggested but to eliminate “environmental” factors (bad grounds, power, etc) that others have mentioned, are you able to put this board in another 80B machine and confirm that it also doesn’t work in another machine? At least that should support the theory that its a board issue.
Or do you have access to a known good board that you could put into this machine to confirm that it boots?
Edit- I reread your original post and it sounds like the board is somewhat booting. Is PROM2 all the way in? It looks like it’s somewhat out of the socket in your post but it could just be the angle. I WOULD get a small sticker or something on the PROM window to protect it from being corrupted by UV light however.

I've been trying to find someone local with another 80B game I can do some swapping with, but no luck so far. gdonovan offered, but it's a couple of hours ride, which is tough given a busy schedule. I'm sure there's another game closer, but I haven't had much luck finding one so far.

PROM2 has been reseated a couple of times, no change unfortunately. I'll throw a sticker over that window as suggested!

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